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Unread 10-01-2013, 02:11 PM
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Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrology

It is not unusual for members to request information regarding astrological prediction of their possible future relationship prospects. Asking a relationship Horary question is a popular method of seeking answers/advice to such questions

Obviously then, because anyone may well be justifiably depressed/upset if they were told that their future relationship prospects are nil
/negligible/unlikely

- and given that not everyone believes in astrology and many are simply curious -

and since many have implicit belief that the astrologer in particular is qualified to tell them their future relationship prospects


THEN

(A) are astrologers morally justified in predicting that future relationship prospects are nil/negligible/unlikely if that is their opinion of the chart in question?


AND IF

an astrologer may have led a client to believe in a definite prospect/likelihood of a relationship within the next few months or so


AND THEN NO SUCH PROSPECTS OCCURRED

and the client became depressed

Then

(B) are astrologers morally justified in predicting that future relationship prospects are excellent?



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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 10-01-2013 at 08:24 PM. Reason: clarification
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Unread 10-01-2013, 03:14 PM
Zarathu Zarathu is offline
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

This is sort of like asking whether a professional counselor is justified in telling someone that they are on a path of action that will lead to their big or little demise.

Carl Rogers struggled with this back in the late 1940's and developed not directive counseling, where he just said uh-huh and mmm until the client finally came around to his way of thinking. Counseling took eons of time and cost a mint. I hate to think it was the mint part that motivated him, but I've always wondered.

If the astrologer is a beginner or even intermediate, then I might agree that they should not say anything until they know a lot more. If the astrologer is a professional, and has had many many many correct suggestions, then s/he should proceed.

But even so.... most wester astrologers will say such things as "it suggests" or "it seems Like" or "probably". Most western astrologers recognize the concept of free will.

So maybe your question is just a re--query of the Free Will question in a new bright red wool winter coat for a new season.
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Unread 10-01-2013, 03:48 PM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post
So maybe your question is just a re--query of the Free Will question in a new bright red wool winter coat for a new season.
On the contrary

To clarify then,

the discussion on this thread is intended to focus on the morality of predicting to a client that
in the opinion of the astrologer doing the prediction
the client's future relationship prospects are nil/negligible/unlikely
given that many clients are likely to be disturbed/upset by such a delineation

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Unread 10-01-2013, 05:19 PM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
On the contrary

To clarify then,

the discussion on this thread is intended to focus on the morality of predicting to a client that
in the opinion of the astrologer doing the prediction
the client's future relationship prospects are nil/negligible/unlikely
given that many clients are likely to be disturbed/upset by such a delineation

In my opinion, JupiterASC, I have never seen a chart where the client's prospects were "nil/negligible/unlikely". I've been in this study for 45 years and if I've not seen it by now and especially with all the horrible sad stories here, then I don't think it exists.

But, if we were to take your abstract example, and I were to find such a chart, then I would find it immoral to ruin their life by telling them that in effect they might as well commit suicide and get a new roll of the dice.

But in my astrology world, I've always been able to show the client a direction to move, even if that direction is a very very narrow path, with a steep rock drop on both sides. I run across those paths all the time here. In the case I'm thinking of, the client wasn't very interested in hearing my reference because it didn't agree with him---even though he'd already admitted that his way was not working.

40 years in counseling, I often ran into counseling clients who wouldn't change even though what they were doing was an abysmal failure. They persisted in DEMANDING that other people change FOR THEM. This is pretty typical.

I always start the expalanation and if they don't want the narrow but successful way or try to twist my words, I stop immediately. IT IS immoral to try to force someone to change when they don't want to, even if what they are doing is not working.

That's essentially a kind of black magic and any violation of someone's free will is evil, imo.
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Unread 10-01-2013, 08:28 PM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post
In my opinion, JupiterASC, I have never seen a chart where the client's prospects were "nil/negligible/unlikely". I've been in this study for 45 years and if I've not seen it by now and especially with all the horrible sad stories here, then I don't think it exists.

But, if we were to take your abstract example, and I were to find such a chart, then I would find it immoral to ruin their life by telling them that in effect they might as well commit suicide and get a new roll of the dice.

But in my astrology world, I've always been able to show the client a direction to move, even if that direction is a very very narrow path, with a steep rock drop on both sides. I run across those paths all the time here. In the case I'm thinking of, the client wasn't very interested in hearing my reference because it didn't agree with him---even though he'd already admitted that his way was not working.

40 years in counseling, I often ran into counseling clients who wouldn't change even though what they were doing was an abysmal failure. They persisted in DEMANDING that other people change FOR THEM. This is pretty typical.

I always start the expalanation and if they don't want the narrow but successful way or try to twist my words, I stop immediately. IT IS immoral to try to force someone to change when they don't want to, even if what they are doing is not working.

That's essentially a kind of black magic and any violation of someone's free will is evil, imo.
Nevertheless, when a client may seek a prediction regarding potential future relationships
and an astrologer tells them there are good prospects for future relationships
yet time passes and no such future relationships are established
resulting in the client experiencing a lengthy depression
then was it moral of the astrologer to make a prediction that led to the client's disappointment?
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Unread 10-02-2013, 06:58 AM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

I'll tell you what I do, here on AW, regarding this issue (my attitude and the actions I take, which I do NOT claim to be "right" or wrong, but merely what I do, based on my OWN principles regarding truth, beauty and honor)

-reading a posted question, that interests me and that involves my making a prediction (actually, my making of an estimation of the likely results of Cosmic trends, since I do NOT believe that the future can be KNOWN except by a prophet of the Divinity), I then make my estimation (delineation)

-if this delineation is negative (for example a "no" answer to a horary question) I simply do not post my delineation to that thread
-if this delineation is positive, I post my delineation
-however, if the OP has received other answers on their thread and:
a) the OP requests yet more answers than the ones they have already received
or
b) the OP specifically requests me to post a response
or
c) I have responded to previous questions by the OP on other threads, and in this way the OP has previously "gotten to know me"...

THEN

-I will post my negative delineation of the OP's question.

IF this answer of mine (whether favorable or negative regarding the OP's question) involves HORARY, I ALWAYS head my horary delineation with a disclaimer that what I am doing is NOT generally accepted horary practice.
If this delineation of mine involves ANY matter pertaining to health, I ALWAYS suggest medical investigation of whatever health problem the individual is concerned with, and I further state that what I am posting is ONLY MY OPINION, based on astrological principles-as I understand those principles.

Last edited by dr. farr; 10-02-2013 at 07:04 AM.
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  #7  
Unread 10-02-2013, 07:25 AM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

What do you mean by "predictive," JA?

In one sense I might tell someone that their current relationship doesn't look wonderful, but I wouldn't predict an ending date, and I don't do horary. I don't think advising someone about a relationship works best as fortune-telling.

You see a lot of questions like, "Why am I 40 and still single?" Oftentimes you can see why in the chart. Maybe the person looks very reclusive. Maybe she has trust issues. Maybe she's a quadruple Aries and truly needs her independence. You try to work with this, and validate their single status.

I think you always support the dignity of the querant. You try to lead them to understand that they have options. You try to get them to look at their behaviours. You try to read the chart to get some understanding of the person.

And above all, you let an anxious person know that life does go on. You may never forget your first (or current love) but that doesn't mean you can't learn from a break-up, or learn how to become an autonomous single.

I might tell someone (as I recently did on a solar return chart) that Venus moving into the 7th is usually a good time for romance. And it has been for her, but I would never say anything more definitive.
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Unread 10-02-2013, 10:51 AM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post
In my opinion, JupiterASC, I have never seen a chart where the client's prospects were "nil/negligible/unlikely". I've been in this study for 45 years and if I've not seen it by now and especially with all the horrible sad stories here, then I don't think it exists.
You do horary Zarathu, correct? You have never seen an instance when someone asks "Will I marry Jeff?" and the answer, in your opionion, is no?

You must now know a lot of happily married horary querents.

Quote:
But, if we were to take your abstract example, and I were to find such a chart, then I would find it immoral to ruin their life by telling them that in effect they might as well commit suicide and get a new roll of the dice.
I don't recall anyone asking you to tell them to commit suicide. The question was whether it would be unethical to tell them the truth of the chart as you understand it?

Quote:
That's essentially a kind of black magic and any violation of someone's free will is evil, imo.
But until anyone mentions trying to violate someone's free will we can probably leave this argument aside.

The question is whether or not it is unethical to predict, in whatever context, that a relationship question someone asks about will be negative.

Maybe a hypothetical example will help?
I am a man of 21 and have never been in a relationship ever, I have never kissed a girl, and I am very much alone. I ask "will I meet someone and get married before Christmas" how do you answer? You can imagine that the question is posed to you either as a horary or a nativity.
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Unread 10-02-2013, 10:55 AM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
-if this delineation is negative (for example a "no" answer to a horary question) I simply do not post my delineation to that thread
-if this delineation is positive, I post my delineation
-however, if the OP has received other answers on their thread and:
a) the OP requests yet more answers than the ones they have already received
or
b) the OP specifically requests me to post a response
or
c) I have responded to previous questions by the OP on other threads, and in this way the OP has previously "gotten to know me"...

THEN

-I will post my negative delineation of the OP's question.
Curious, why these caveats?

Let's move away from the forum idea, in real life if I contact you and I ask you a question about romance, and you see in the chart it's negative, do you simply not take the question?

You say you work as a homeopath, do you take the same approach with homeopathy - in other words if I walk into your 'clinic' (I'm not familiar with how homeopaths work so forgive me the poor nomenclature) and I tell you my symptoms and I ask "am I unwell?" and you see that i am, do you similarly not offer your negative judgement?
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Unread 10-02-2013, 10:48 PM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

I can't say that every cloud has a silver lining or paste a happy-smiley face on a horrible break-up (oh, like my divorce 20 years ago.) In not doing much predictive work and no horary, I have looked at a lot of synastry and composite charts where the two people seem mismatched. Sometimes with the individual charts and from what the native posts, you might intuit that she is terrified of being on her own.

From the posts, you sometimes find out financial troubles, custody issues, or a lot more hinging on the relationship than just the twosome. This is always worth asking about. Maybe the initial question concerns a romantic break-up, but it turns out that if the native does break up with her BF, she's headed for the homeless shelter.

So one thing you can do with nativity-based charts is to start to open new possibilities for the person into the future. For example, "With your Aries nature, you have the capacity and need for some independence." Or possibly it's a mother with a strong 5th house, and you can emphasize that she clarify what is best for her children. This way the native can project herself into her own future, hopefully in a more empowered way.

I recall one thread over at Astrodienst where the poster was in deep distress. Her husband announced that he was leaving her; and she had no personal income, no job, a mortgaged property, and a child or two. This all overwhelmed her. She thought she would be bankrupt as well as heartbroken; and there was a daughter who would be deeply distressed at losing Daddy. Well, never mind the astrology. The responders gave her solid practical advice, like see a lawyer right away, secure your bank accounts and credit cards, and recognize that he will have to pay child support and probably alimony. Start with a binding separation agreement, itemizing your assets, if need be. What about joint custody?

Then we worked with her horoscope to focus on the strengths she will have to pull through this difficult time. I do look at transits. (And progressions, if posted.) For example, I might say, "Right now you are going through a difficult time with Pluto squaring your sun, but this should ease off by February."

I think such "case studies" are far more helpful than hypotheticals.
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Unread 10-03-2013, 06:41 AM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_ View Post
Curious, why these caveats?

Let's move away from the forum idea, in real life if I contact you and I ask you a question about romance, and you see in the chart it's negative, do you simply not take the question?

You say you work as a homeopath, do you take the same approach with homeopathy - in other words if I walk into your 'clinic' (I'm not familiar with how homeopaths work so forgive me the poor nomenclature) and I tell you my symptoms and I ask "am I unwell?" and you see that i am, do you similarly not offer your negative judgement?

As I mentioned in my post, this is the attitude I take RELATIVE TO THIS FORUM, ie a public forum where I have no connection with the querent other than by posting, where I know next to nothing about their potential susceptibility and vulnerability, their age, level of life experience, etc.

My approach to a PM request, where I can obtain additional specific information regarding the person and their circumstances, or to an in person interview with a person, is TOTALLY DIFFERENT. Same too with a personal homeopathic consultation, where I can see the person, find out a great deal about them, find out the medical investigations they might have already had, and so can know how to judge WHAT I TELL THAT PERSON, and especially HOW I TELL IT TO THAT PERSON...
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Unread 10-03-2013, 08:44 AM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
As I mentioned in my post, this is the attitude I take RELATIVE TO THIS FORUM, ie a public forum where I have no connection with the querent other than by posting, where I know next to nothing about their potential susceptibility and vulnerability, their age, level of life experience, etc.

My approach to a PM request, where I can obtain additional specific information regarding the person and their circumstances, or to an in person interview with a person, is TOTALLY DIFFERENT. Same too with a personal homeopathic consultation, where I can see the person, find out a great deal about them, find out the medical investigations they might have already had, and so can know how to judge WHAT I TELL THAT PERSON, and especially HOW I TELL IT TO THAT PERSON...
Thanks Dr Farr, I was just curious if you had the same ethical principles offline as you apply online - but your answer makes it clear where you distinguish between them.
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Unread 10-06-2013, 02:55 PM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

A member has asked a question concerning relationship with their mother - the question: SHOULD I CUT OFF ALL TIES WITH MY MOTHER? http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...589#post502589 Any comments?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantenbar View Post
It seems like the relationship I have with my mom is toxic. She encourages me to do everything opposite of what I'd like to do in life. I think I talk to her, gossip and complain with her way too much. It's bringing me down. Every time I distance myself from her, my life is much better, but then someone gives me a guilt trip telling me to talk to her since she's my mother and all. I really just want to cut her off for good so that I can be happy and move on with my life. Some people tell me to distance myself and maybe check on her here and there, but the minute I talk to her she just brings me back into complaining and second guessing myself. She seems manipulative and kind of like a leech. I believe she also has a drug problem. What do you guys think, would it be bad if I just cut her off completely?
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Unread 10-06-2013, 04:03 PM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

Parties who may be interested in viewing relevant science should read the following:

A

B

I would not normally communicate with links, but the second is a short paragraph (part of bigger, known, research). The first is applicable generally and valuable (I hope you will read to end). In any event, both are truly relevant to this thread. They will make my point.

So, to conclude, framing is part of the brain's architecture. Being honest (i.e., fine print ceveats) and realistic about objectivity (i.e., multiple approaches) and what prediction frames are made of, in my opinion, is the moral duty of the professional. To qualify that, the short second article casts valid doubt on the lack of free will argument. Framing of predictions as if there is no free will, or leaving this unspoken, can sound sufficiently persuasive to impinge on the free will of the recipient which, as Zarathu said, may have unintentional consequences.

Prediction, by definition, comes with a somewhat broken frame already since it gives only a possible part of the story. What good is part of the story about the future when judged with a present mind? It is not just a delivery. It is a delivery in the context of potential harm, poor prediction of how the person will take these news, a concern about their wellbeing needs to be prioritised over accurate prediction. If one wishes to provide a moral service, then a concern with this cannot be ignored.

Morals are constructions, meaning they are dependent on the amount and the quality of information available. It is no secret that astrologers seldom conduct research into the psychological consequences of their readings on the recipients (i.e., months after) and/or share this research with each others, despite having facility to do so. To be objective, I do not aim to preach extensively about the right or wrong of predictions from psychological perspectives. But I do insist that practicing and aspiring astrologers get into the habit of conducting this type of research germaine to their practice so to be informed about potential pitfalls and how these can be improved.

In my eyes, prediction is a small consideration of moral and ethical predictive service. Consideration of present research (named; A & B), the implementation of this into practice and the continuation of personal research to share with the wider community bolster an ethical approach whilst taking the moral initiative to protect the wellbeing of clients.


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Unread 10-06-2013, 04:17 PM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

I think, very simple.

It is immoral if I refused this person and telling him I concerned about my own morality standard when this person living in a life like hell day and night distressed about the question he having in mind. He may come to ask me if I could do prediction and give them some answer, explanation, to relieve a little bit of his pain and concerns and support his through positive counselling whatever the predictions maybe.

Of course if I don't have the skills I would say no I can't do it but I will offer you time to listen and to understand from your perspective. But I will never say Oh No this is so immoral of you asking that question and it is so immoral for me to do that and just rejected them.

My principle is I must provide constructive inspiration to those come to seek for guidance. Rather I can predict or not. I will always make sure I made a change for better. So it will base on the situation and judgement to be made as per Individual case.

Last edited by poyi; 10-06-2013 at 04:28 PM.
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Unread 10-06-2013, 07:03 PM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

The question is not whether it is moral to help. The question is, if I have understood correctly, what does one do to minimise the risk of harm to a native given, what we have come to know as, the unavoidable hurdle "grey area" in astrological, predictive, practice. Thus, is it moral to give positive/negative predictions to a unknown child/adult even though we know these predictions may be wrong? If yes, what are the caveats?

Poyi, it is fine to want to alleviate someone's pain. But not everyone who has that intention necessarily does alleviate pain, however. How do you "make sure" that you made a change for the better?

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Unread 10-06-2013, 07:17 PM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandy View Post
The question is not whether it is moral to help. The question is, if I have understood correctly, what does one do to minimise the risk of harm to a native given, what we have come to know as, the unavoidable hurdle "grey area" in astrological, predictive, practice. Thus, is it moral to give positive/negative predictions to a unknown child/adult even though we know these predictions may be wrong? If yes, what are the caveats?

Poyi, it is fine to want to alleviate someone's pain. But not everyone who has that intention necessarily does alleviate pain, however. How do you "make sure" that you made a change for the better?
Here's the question posted on the OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
It is not unusual for members to request information regarding astrological prediction of their possible future relationship prospects. Asking a relationship Horary question is a popular method of seeking answers/advice to such questions

Obviously then, because anyone may well be justifiably depressed/upset if they were told that their future relationship prospects are nil
/negligible/unlikely

- and given that not everyone believes in astrology and many are simply curious -

and since many have implicit belief that the astrologer in particular is qualified to tell them their future relationship prospects


THEN

(A) are astrologers morally justified in predicting that future relationship prospects are nil/negligible/unlikely if that is their opinion of the chart in question?


AND IF

an astrologer may have led a client to believe in a definite prospect/likelihood of a relationship within the next few months or so


AND THEN NO SUCH PROSPECTS OCCURRED

and the client became depressed

Then

(B) are astrologers morally justified in predicting that future relationship prospects are excellent?


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Unread 10-06-2013, 09:42 PM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

As I've tried to explain above, I don't think the OP is completely apt in terms of what can transpire during an on-line consultation. I have given some realistic examples above, drawn from threads on Internet astrology forums here and at Astrodienst.

For sure, if the chart-reader is well-intended, s/he wants to "help people." But oftentimes you should engage a distraught person in a longer discussion to get a sense of what is really going on with her. I truly oppose "hit and run" dispensers of negative advice except in specific cases where the OPer is far from suicidal and needs a wake-up call.

Possibly the querant feels the need of a relationship keenly because she has low self-esteem and looks to some man to make her feel better about herself. Maybe her family and relatives are making her life difficult because in their culture, most women are married by their mid-20s. Maybe she is cataclysmically in love with someone who gives her the Big Brush-Off. These are life-issues where you can work with the querant and encourage her to become more emotionally self-sustaining.
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Unread 10-08-2013, 09:06 PM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

The ending of a relationship may well be psychologically experienced in a very similar way to when a person dies
and this is common knowledge - for example suicide of a person who has been rejected in this way.

When an astrologer predicts death/ending of a relationship one is referred to as 'immoral death clock prediction' by some
Yet those same nay-sayers find the prediction of the ending of a relationship as fine to do
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Unread 10-08-2013, 09:23 PM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
As I've tried to explain above, I don't think the OP is completely apt in terms of what can transpire during an on-line consultation. I have given some realistic examples above, drawn from threads on Internet astrology forums here and at Astrodienst.
Waybread, putting aside online forums, what about in real life consultations. YOu say you cannot see how the OP is apt and relate it only to online consultations, but it's worth highlighting that the OP itself never specified that stipulation. So taking the OP broader and not just limited to the internet, what do you think regarding the issue of morality.

Quote:
For sure, if the chart-reader is well-intended, s/he wants to "help people." But oftentimes you should engage a distraught person in a longer discussion to get a sense of what is really going on with her. I truly oppose "hit and run" dispensers of negative advice except in specific cases where the OPer is far from suicidal and needs a wake-up call.
But sometimes that's the case too. Sometimes the 'negative' horaries are the ones where the querent is actually helped the most. I fully agree with your earlier views regarding a natal chart though. Sometimes you see, in fact very often you do (especially online) where a querent asks the same questions over and over - and clearly when we have these kinds of patterns we're better off putting down the horary and picking up the nativity. It's worth remembering that horary and natal charts are not mutually exclusive. If you were to come to me in person right now and ask me a question, depending on what it was, I would be likely to look at both your natal and cast a horary. I don't recognise that people come to me with 'horary questions' they just come with issues/problems that they need guidance for. I might use a horary to help, or a nativity, or both. But sometimes the horary is what is best needed. Sometimes the simplicity of a yes or no question is what is needed. No, he will not leave his wife for you. Honestly, things like that can change someone's life for the better, it will of course hurt. But it's short term, far better than wasting the best years of your life hankering on something that isn't going to happen.

But what if it does, you might say, what if you're wrong. It happens. The role of the astrologer is not to pretend toward infallibility, but if the querent/native believes in astrology and in horary then the decision, as always, is theirs.

You're right that sometimes it takes a longer discussion, but sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes the horary is just a key toward a longer discussion on the nativity.

I'm curious because I don't think I've ever asked you this: have you ever actually read a horary for someone in real life, not on line? I'm not asking to invalidate your views if you answer no.
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Unread 10-09-2013, 07:42 AM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

Yes. However, my real love is natal chart interpretation using modern methods.

The trouble with the OP is like so many morality questions that psychologists used to use to use to "grade" people.

Remember this chestnut?

"In Europe, a woman was near death from a special kind of cancer. There was one drug that the doctors thought might save her. It was a form of radium that a druggist in the same town had recently discovered. The drug was expensive to make, but the druggist was charging ten times what the drug cost him to make. He paid $200 for the radium and charged $2,000 for a small dose of the drug. The sick woman's husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money, but he could only get together about $ 1,000 which is half of what it cost. He told the druggist that his wife was dying and asked him to sell it cheaper or let him pay later. But the druggist said: "No, I discovered the drug and I'm going to make money from it." So Heinz got desperate and broke into the man's store to steal the drug-for his wife. Should the husband have done that? " (1963) http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm

This is so unreal it is almost laughable. We assume that Heinz would be able to put his hands on the drug inside a pharmacy filled with a few hundred different medications. If it were radioactive, even in 1963, it would have been kept in special high-security containment. We assume that the druggist went through his country's equivalent of the US Food and Drug Administration's approval process, which would be required to put a radioactive drug on the shelf-- by prescription only. There is no mention of a doctor's prescription. We assume the druggist had a handy supply of radium-- which is not easy to come by, as it is mined in only a few places on the globe, and can cause radiation sickness when handled improperly. Radiation therapy is not for amateurs like this back-room druggist. We can assume that the container indicated the correct dosage as well as special restrictions on its use. We assume Mrs. Heinz had no health insurance, and so on.

You can't answer this "Kohlberg's dilemma" unless you enter his imaginative-- and might I say-- cuckoo kind of world.

It makes far more sense to use a case study approach based upon actual examples, where one's credulity isn't so strained.

The great majority of my chart reading is done on-line, so this is the universe I address.

I don't do horary astrology (which isn't to say I haven't studied it) for several reasons, including because of the hit-and-run prospects for so many questions, like "Will I get married?" Or "What are my future relationship prospects?"

I am not opposed to giving people news they won't want to hear about relationships. But without a natal chart and/or extensive communication, you have no idea what is really going on through the querent's mind. You can get a much better idea, I think, from a natal chart and some dialogue with the person.

Unfortunately horary can all too often deteriorate into a kind of fortune-telling, that doesn't address the fundamental issues.

We can imagine a 40-year old single woman asking about her natal chart: "Why am I 40 and still single?" Or of a horary chart: "Will I get married?"

It seems to me that with the natal chart and some discussion, you can discuss with her some life-themes that affect her single status. Maybe she is exceptionally reclusive. Maybe she needs her independence. Maybe she's smart enough not to settle for Mr. Wrong. And you can build on these in constructive ways.

With a horary chart on its lonesome, you lack all this opportunity for depth and breadth in actually trying to be helpful to someone. Combining methods, including natal plus horary and a good dialogue, seems to be what the good professionals do. It just adds so much more depth to astrological advising.

I have gotten numerous requests to engage in fortune-telling, and I don't do it. I will say if I see likely or unlikely times for something to happen, or good or not-so-good times to and places to look for Mr. Right.
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Unread 10-09-2013, 08:59 AM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Yes. However, my real love is natal chart interpretation using modern methods.
Great, but modern methods does not preclude prediction either of course, even if the nature of what is predicted changes - often the changes are psychological or 'spiritual' in outlook rather than event driven.

Quote:
This is so unreal it is almost laughable.
Perhaps, but unlike your example, the OP isn't so unreal it's almost laughable. It happens all the time. It's happening right now on this forum. It happens in real life too. So whilst I understand that we can't address every single thing hypothetically, we can offer our feedback on what we ourselves do or don't do and why. Unless you're saying that you've never been asked a romance question in your capacity as an astrologer, then this situation will also be very real to you too.

Quote:
It makes far more sense to use a case study approach based upon actual examples, where one's credulity isn't so strained.
Waybread are you suggesting that the issue of morality cannot be commented on one way or another without reference to a case by case example and if so what makes this particular application of morality different from other ones? Obviously people, yourself included, do talk about issues pertaining to morality in general terms and not just case by case.

Quote:
The great majority of my chart reading is done on-line, so this is the universe I address.
By your choice, my point is that it doesn't make the OP inapt.

Quote:
I don't do horary astrology (which isn't to say I haven't studied it) for several reasons, including because of the hit-and-run prospects for so many questions, like "Will I get married?" Or "What are my future relationship prospects?"
I appreciate you don't do much horary off line, but imagine instead that you did (if you can) as this subject matter is not just for online readings. When someone comes to you and asks a question, do you think "this is a question that they've come to an astrologer to seek guidance with" or do you think "I don't do horary". What determines whether you, as the astrologer, opt to use horary, a natal predictive technique etc.?

Really the difference online is that, as far as I'm concerned, when you post up a horary chart you are saying "I am the astrologer for this question" and therefore you are the one who has responsibility for answering it. Everyone else can chime in and give advice, but it's your chart, not ours.

The question still becomes however, what is the determinant for why something is immoral. If a person comes to an astrologer for ANY reason is it immoral for that person to address their issues astrologically and if not why not? You do 'modern astrology' but what does this mean in relation to morality, if someone comes to you and asks about relationship issues, what do you do? Are you qualified to do that with potentially vulnerable people?

We need not necessarily predict to run into issues of morality and where the line lies, but you yourself predict likely and unlikely times. Is this not similarly immoral? If not why not? Why is predicting something vaguely any better than predicting something with more focus - is the criterion going to be accuracy? Are you predicting vaguely because you do not feel accuracy is possible? Is the constraint of what you deem possible the criterion for whether a thing is moral or not?

I think these are all really important questions for us to answer so that we can fine tune where our moral 'line' is drawn, and, more importantly (imo) why we draw the lines there.

Quote:
I am not opposed to giving people news they won't want to hear about relationships. But without a natal chart and/or extensive communication, you have no idea what is really going on through the querent's mind. You can get a much better idea, I think, from a natal chart and some dialogue with the person.
I appreciate you do not do horary but I strongly disagree with this view. As someone who does both, often together, I can honestly hand on heart say that it is much quicker and easier to get a very quick snapshot of the mindest of the querent from a horary than from a natal chart which stays static throughout the entirety of a person's life. You need to apply 'filters' of information to the nativity such as progressions, transits, directions etc. or some combination of them to achieve it with a nativity. With a horary you already have it in just the one chart. I have yet to see, for example, a horary where the main significator(s) for the querent are in detriment/fall and they are not in some way ill at ease either physically or mentally. I normally say that it shows a sickness of mind or body with regards the question when you see it. You can tell very quickly. When you see how the ascendant is, and what is in it and what aspect it and the lord of the ascendant, and then the separating aspects of the Moon as well, we can very very quickly sum up the basic mindset and 'situation' of our querent, and, if you were so inclined, can even, often with great accuracy, describe their appearance.

Whilst I appreciate you do not do horary, I would just caution about contrasting the two in terms of efficacy.

Quote:
Unfortunately horary can all too often deteriorate into a kind of fortune-telling, that doesn't address the fundamental issues.
Actually horary doesn't do anything at all. Horary ASTROLGOERS on the other hand may or may not. THe whole purpose of horary is to address specific concerns and offer guidance and feedback on how the querent can navigate those concerns. The level to which you want to take that depends entirely on the astrologer. You could quite happily, as I have done in the past, have a kind of 'counselling' (though I shudder to use the term) session based just on the horary. Bear in mind, just to offer you another way of thinking about this, very often the horary chart will also be a kind of consultation chart as well.

In any event one can use the natal chart for forecasting and once again it's up to the astrologer, not the astrology, whether that becomes fortune telling or not.

In any even with regards your comment of giving likely or unlikely times, that is exactly what many horary astrologers say. Someone may ask "will I fall in love by Christmas next year" - you could use a nativity and examine transits and progressions and conclude that it's unlikely. Someone else could examine a horary and conclude that it's unlikely.

The methods we use to get there shouldn't be the determinants for whether a thing is moral or immoral and we shouldn't project conclusions that one form of prediction is, by necessity, likely to degenerate into fortune telling and another is unlikely to. The only criterion which determines how astrology is used is the astrologer.

Quote:
We can imagine a 40-year old single woman asking about her natal chart: "Why am I 40 and still single?" Or of a horary chart: "Will I get married?"

It seems to me that with the natal chart and some discussion, you can discuss with her some life-themes that affect her single status. Maybe she is exceptionally reclusive. Maybe she needs her independence. Maybe she's smart enough not to settle for Mr. Wrong. And you can build on these in constructive ways.
Of course, but when she goes home will you have actually answered her question? Does that matter? I guess what we need to address is whether or not you feel it's actually possible to answer the question "Will I get married by 2015" even if only in terms of likelihood?
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Unread 10-09-2013, 10:27 PM
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Re: Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrolo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_ View Post
Great, but modern methods does not preclude prediction either of course, even if the nature of what is predicted changes - often the changes are psychological or 'spiritual' in outlook rather than event driven.

Perhaps, but unlike your example, the OP isn't so unreal it's almost laughable. It happens all the time. It's happening right now on this forum. It happens in real life too. So whilst I understand that we can't address every single thing hypothetically, we can offer our feedback on what we ourselves do or don't do and why. Unless you're saying that you've never been asked a romance question in your capacity as an astrologer, then this situation will also be very real to you too.

Waybread are you suggesting that the issue of morality cannot be commented on one way or another without reference to a case by case example and if so what makes this particular application of morality different from other ones? Obviously people, yourself included, do talk about issues pertaining to morality in general terms and not just case by case.

By your choice, my point is that it doesn't make the OP inapt.

I appreciate you don't do much horary off line, but imagine instead that you did (if you can) as this subject matter is not just for online readings. When someone comes to you and asks a question, do you think "this is a question that they've come to an astrologer to seek guidance with" or do you think "I don't do horary". What determines whether you, as the astrologer, opt to use horary, a natal predictive technique etc.?

Really the difference online is that, as far as I'm concerned, when you post up a horary chart you are saying "I am the astrologer for this question" and therefore you are the one who has responsibility for answering it. Everyone else can chime in and give advice, but it's your chart, not ours.

The question still becomes however, what is the determinant for why something is immoral. If a person comes to an astrologer for ANY reason is it immoral for that person to address their issues astrologically and if not why not? You do 'modern astrology' but what does this mean in relation to morality, if someone comes to you and asks about relationship issues, what do you do? Are you qualified to do that with potentially vulnerable people?

We need not necessarily predict to run into issues of morality and where the line lies, but you yourself predict likely and unlikely times. Is this not similarly immoral? If not why not? Why is predicting something vaguely any better than predicting something with more focus - is the criterion going to be accuracy? Are you predicting vaguely because you do not feel accuracy is possible? Is the constraint of what you deem possible the criterion for whether a thing is moral or not?

I think these are all really important questions for us to answer so that we can fine tune where our moral 'line' is drawn, and, more importantly (imo) WHY we draw the lines there.

I appreciate you do not do horary but I strongly disagree with this view. As someone who does both, often together, I can honestly hand on heart say that it is much quicker and easier to get a very quick snapshot of the mindest of the querent from a horary than from a natal chart which stays static throughout the entirety of a person's life. You need to apply 'filters' of information to the nativity such as progressions, transits, directions etc. or some combination of them to achieve it with a nativity. With a horary you already have it in just the one chart. I have yet to see, for example, a horary where the main significator(s) for the querent are in detriment/fall and they are not in some way ill at ease either physically or mentally. I normally say that it shows a sickness of mind or body with regards the question when you see it. You can tell very quickly. When you see how the ascendant is, and what is in it and what aspect it and the lord of the ascendant, and then the separating aspects of the Moon as well, we can very very quickly sum up the basic mindset and 'situation' of our querent, and, if you were so inclined, can even, often with great accuracy, describe their appearance.

Whilst I appreciate you do not do horary, I would just caution about contrasting the two in terms of efficacy.

Actually horary doesn't do anything at all. Horary ASTROLGOERS on the other hand may or may not. THe whole purpose of horary is to address specific concerns and offer guidance and feedback on how the querent can navigate those concerns. The level to which you want to take that depends entirely on the astrologer. You could quite happily, as I have done in the past, have a kind of 'counselling' (though I shudder to use the term) session based just on the horary. Bear in mind, just to offer you another way of thinking about this, very often the horary chart will also be a kind of consultation chart as well.

In any event one can use the natal chart for forecasting and once again it's up to the astrologer, not the astrology, whether that becomes fortune telling or not.

In any even with regards your comment of giving likely or unlikely times, that is exactly what many horary astrologers say. Someone may ask "will I fall in love by Christmas next year" - you could use a nativity and examine transits and progressions and conclude that it's unlikely. Someone else could examine a horary and conclude that it's unlikely.

The methods we use to get there shouldn't be the determinants for whether a thing is moral or immoral and we shouldn't project conclusions that one form of prediction is, by necessity, likely to degenerate into fortune telling and another is unlikely to. The only criterion which determines how astrology is used is the astrologer.

Of course, but when she goes home will you have actually answered her question? Does that matter? I guess what we need to address is whether or not you feel it's actually possible to answer the question "Will I get married by 2015" even if only in terms of likelihood?
These are all sound arguments

It is increasingly evident, that so far as some are concerned at any rate,
the job of an astrologer = the job of a psychological counselor


HOWEVER

Astrology from ancient times is clearly for the purposes of prediction.

The job of an astrologer is to answer the client's question

If the astrologer is unwilling to answer ANY client's astrologically predictive question EVER
and instead insists on a counseling session instead,
then that astrologer is ignoring the client's needs and furthermore has chosen the wrong profession.

The client clearly is consulting the astrologer in order to receive astrological prediction


If the client needed counseling the client would have instead chosen a psychological counselor
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Unread 10-09-2013, 10:49 PM
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Avoiding attacks

All,

In discussions where there are strong opinions on either side, it helps to simply state your opinion on the SUBJECT instead of stating your opinion how you feel about the other PERSON. No person's intent or tone can be understood through text alone (since the all-important clues of the person's tone (e.g., the way they look at you, tone of voice, body stance) are not present since you can't SEE the other person) so all you can do is respond to what the person actually said without trying to find some other "tone" to object to. Focus on the SUBJECT and leave your personal opinions of the other PERSON alone. Otherwise you risk being moderated for attacking/trolling the other person.

Suggesting,

Tim
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Unread 10-10-2013, 08:22 AM
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Re: Avoiding attacks

JA, it is not correct to constrain astrology as being primarily about prediction. Much of it is, but we can think of many, many examples to the contrary. Many people's questions are not "when" questions but "why" questions based on the natal chart. Modern astrology suggests that natal astrology is a tool for self-awareness, for example. Mundane astrologers often look at a recent natraul disaster to see why it happened, without wanting to predict when a similar disaster might happen in the future.

You seem to have a mistaken view of what happens during a normal natal chart reading, as well. Typically it is the client or OPer who asks for advice but the phrase "counseling session" doesn't capture the nature of what takes place such that a professional counseler would recognize it as his type of practice.

You don't read charts for people so far as I can determine, other than offering a couple of ideas or telling them to read Vettius Valens or something comparable. Possibly this is the source of your misunderstanding as to what takes place.

I have no idea whom you mean by an astrologer "who wouldn't answer any predictive questions ever;" shall I assume you mean me? If so, you need to read more of my posts on this forum. I will suggest to OPers likely or unlikely, and good or bad times for something to happen. The chart will "out" but any given natal horoscopic placement is capable of more than one outcome. People have choices to make in life, and a choice made at time T can influence an outcome at time Z.
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