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  #1  
Unread 06-11-2013, 10:01 PM
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Morality of Predicting Death?

Do you think it is morally acceptable to predict death for a client? (assuming that they asked)


If your answer is no because of the uncertainty of death, would your answer be the same if you found a surefire technique?


Imagine that you stumbled across something in the chart of a loved one that indicated a very likely time for their death. What would you do with this information? Would you tell the person or keep it to yourself?

How would you refrain from letting that "date" worry you, especially if you kept it to yourself?

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Unread 06-11-2013, 10:23 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Venus View Post
Do you think it is morally acceptable to predict death for a client? (assuming that they asked)

If your answer is no because of the uncertainty of death, would your answer be the same if you found a surefire technique?


Imagine that you stumbled across something in the chart of a loved one that indicated a very likely time for their death. What would you do with this information? Would you tell the person or keep it to yourself?

How would you refrain from letting that "date" worry you, especially if you kept it to yourself?
Death is neither moral nor immoral but simply inevitable -

PREDICTING Death is simple - everyone who has ever lived has either already died or shall do at some stage

PREDICTING A SPECIFIC TIME of Death requires knowledge, skill, expertise

- often experts are subject to error simply due to for example having been provided with an incorrect time of birth

....therefore proceed with caution
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  #3  
Unread 06-11-2013, 10:26 PM
Zarathu Zarathu is offline
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

You could try it once a year with horary and see how it goes. Sooner or later horary will say that its "this year, dude".
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Unread 06-11-2013, 10:34 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Death is neither moral nor immoral but simply inevitable -

PREDICTING Death is simple - everyone who has ever lived has either already died or shall do at some stage

PREDICTING A SPECIFIC TIME of Death requires knowledge, skill, expertise

- often experts are subject to error simply due to for example having been provided with an incorrect time of birth

....therefore proceed with caution
Yes i meant predicting time of death :P

I suppose it does help to know that i very well could be wrong. I've been studying 7 years and it jumped right out at me with a scream but i'm certainly no expert.

I suppose it would feel different to predict a strangers death than a loved ones, but morally, shouldn't those two be treated with the same apprehension?
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Unread 06-11-2013, 10:39 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post
You could try it once a year with horary and see how it goes. Sooner or later horary will say that its "this year, dude".
The problem is not one of wanting to know. The problem is what to do with the information when you DO know. (though i suppose i could make a horary about whether i am right.. ha)
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Unread 06-11-2013, 10:42 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Venus View Post
Yes i meant predicting time of death :P

I suppose it does help to know that i very well could be wrong. I've been studying 7 years and it jumped right out at me with a scream but i'm certainly no expert.

I suppose it would feel different to predict a strangers death than a loved ones, but morally, shouldn't those two be treated with the same apprehension
?
Guidance on the subject of predicting time of death at Hyleg and Alcocoden thread http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=46808
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Unread 06-11-2013, 10:48 PM
Clinton Soule Clinton Soule is offline
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Phoenix Venus stated:

Quote:
Do you think it is morally acceptable to predict death for a client? (assuming that they asked)
Well Lilly, who had contemplated becoming in the clergy before he became a renown horary artist did answer such as in:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrology-books/

CAI, Table of Contents, Eigth House questions:

Quote:

Of the Eighth House. viz.


Death, Dowrev. &c.



404.......If the absent party be alive or dead.


406.......Whether one absent will return.


407.......The time when he will return.


408.......Of the death of the Querent, or space of his own life.


409.......When or about what time the Querent may dye.


411.......Whether the Man or Wife shall dye first.


412.......What manner of death the Querent shall dye.


Whether the portion of the wife will be great, or easily obtained, or if the


woman will be rich.


414.......If one be afraid of a thing, whether he shall be in danger thereof or not.


415.......A figure to know whether man or woman shall dye first.


417.......A figure of a womans to know if her husband at Seawere alive or dead.




Page #



419.......A figure to know what manner of death Canterbury should dye.


421.......A figure to know If the Querent should have the Portion promised.

Now there are those like who may follow the standards of AFA who see it differently.

As AFA belives by their code that one should never betray their nation.

Yet the astrologers whom worked under Hitler in Nazi Germany defected because of various issues and went to Churchill in England where if my source is correct, Sidney Omarr worked with Churchill's astrologers in WWII.

In other words where is my loyalty to my nation first, or to the Creator of the heavens like this actual historic figure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feP54aMCRDo

In other words, if you are a devout Christian, Moslem, Hindu, Hebrew, etc., you are going to have to decide is the path you choose approved of by the Creator of the stars?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILwF5AvP7zQ

Psalm 19:1-4 New International Version (NIV)

1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice[b] goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.

Last edited by Clinton Soule; 06-11-2013 at 11:12 PM. Reason: mistakes
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  #8  
Unread 06-12-2013, 12:42 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Venus View Post
Do you think it is morally acceptable to predict death for a client? (assuming that they asked)
If you can do it (and it doesn't seem like anyone can do so accurately and consistently, or if they can, it's not to my knowledge), and they ask, then yes.

Quote:
Imagine that you stumbled across something in the chart of a loved one that indicated a very likely time for their death. What would you do with this information? Would you tell the person or keep it to yourself?

How would you refrain from letting that "date" worry you, especially if you kept it to yourself?
I would likely take it as a spur to enjoy the time we still have together to the utmost.
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Unread 06-12-2013, 12:48 AM
Clinton Soule Clinton Soule is offline
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Robert Hand's speech on Ethics in astrology may be very appropriate here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L6eb4wK_Pk

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Ecclesiastes 3:1-4 "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: 2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;" (King James Version)

Last edited by Clinton Soule; 06-12-2013 at 12:49 AM. Reason: mistakes
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  #10  
Unread 06-12-2013, 12:55 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Venus View Post
Do you think it is morally acceptable to predict death for a client? (assuming that they asked)


If your answer is no because of the uncertainty of death, would your answer be the same if you found a surefire technique?


Imagine that you stumbled across something in the chart of a loved one that indicated a very likely time for their death. What would you do with this information? Would you tell the person or keep it to yourself?

How would you refrain from letting that "date" worry you, especially if you kept it to yourself?
Personally I have to assume that there is a reason that every single traditional astrology treatise I read has some method for predicting length of life. Perhaps because if you were an astrologer for kings in ages past then you'd look pretty foolish fortelling what would happen in the 30th year if the native wasn't going to survive infancy.

If the client asked, then the next question would be..."why?" As in, why are they asking? And the follow up question would be...are you helping or hurting by answering?

Surefire technique? How surefire? If you get it wrong even once then there is cause to doubt the technique. Especially when you are talking about death.

Again personally, if I stumbled upon a date (because in astrology "stumbling upon" is not such a good thing as far as technique goes) I thought could be the big one for someone I love, I would use it as an excuse to make sure I told them every day what they mean to me, enjoy every moment, capture all the memories I could, probably be vigilant on that day and pray that I was wrong. Which is entirely possible. And yes, I would keep it to myself. Because wouldn't sharing it be a bit, well...selfish?

Ptolemy (as pterrible as he was at some things) said it very well when speaking about "That Prescience is Useful"

Quote:
For, in the first place, this fact ought to be kept in view, that events which necessarily and fully happen, whether exciting fear or creating joy, if arriving unforeseen, will either overwhelm the mind with terror or destroy its composure by sudden delight; if, however, such events should have been foreknown, the mind will have been previously prepared for their reception, and will preserve an equable calmness, by having been accustomed to contemplate the approaching event as though it were present, so that, on its actual arrival, it will be sustained with tranquility and constancy.
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  #11  
Unread 06-12-2013, 02:39 AM
Zarathu Zarathu is offline
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Venus View Post
The problem is not one of wanting to know. The problem is what to do with the information when you DO know. (though i suppose i could make a horary about whether i am right.. ha)
Ah.... that is a problem. You have to determine what the person will do with it. How will you feel if the person goes out and shoots himself dead or hangs himself and leaves a note implicating you? And then, the authorities blame you and you get charged in civil court for aiding in the person's death.

There are plenty of long term problems for you emotionally and personally and for the other person by telling them that they will die soon unless you are a licensed physician and you have the medical tests to prove it.
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Unread 06-12-2013, 03:23 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

This is a problem that every professional astrologer has to deal with quite regularly and I have a number of stories connected to this issue, some hilarious, many sad.

The organisation to which I belong and of which I am a founding member in my State, expressly forbids the prediction of death because it is such a traumatic issue for most westerners so I use this as my escape clause whenever a client asks me if they or a member of their family are going to die.

However, Chinese clients of mine were very angry indeed when I didn't tell them their grandfather was about to die as they expected me to do this kind of work.

At times I have told clients they are certainly not going to die as there were no astrological indications in their chart of that of their family.

At times fellow astrologers have asked me to look at their charts on this matter. One saw by my facial expression that he was clearly going to die so I learned from that to carefully school my facial movements in such cases. An ex-lover and fellow astrologer with pancreatic cancer asked me when he was going to die, but I said I was too upset to tell, however I did my very best to get friends to visit him and told one friend that she needed to hurry up as he would be dead by Friday.

A close friend who was terminal with breast cancer asked me the date of her death - after some deliberation I told her and she did die on that day. Unfortunately she had told other people what I said and they then became terrified of me to the point I haven't seen any of them since. I didn't cause her death, I just observed the astrological indications which clearly showed the timing.

Through reading posts of forums I became aware that hardly any people knew the astrological signatures that could describe death and were therefore making some very inaccurate predictions that often deeply scared people. As a result I have put the astrological indications of death on my website http://aliceportman.com/determining-death-from-a-horoscope/ these are very specific indeed and cover all of the very many deaths I have seen in my years as a professional astrologer. It is written for astrologers of a good level of understanding in our craft and whom therefore have some skill and wisdom. It is the article that regularly gets the most 'hits' of all.

Alice
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Unread 06-12-2013, 03:48 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

I absolutely accept that it is ethical to point out potential critical periods, so that direct efforts can be made to influence the health and safety of an individual, during such potentially critical periods.
Equally (perhaps even more forcefully) I absolutely reject as being both ERRONEOUS, and unethical, declaring to someone..." you (or he or she) WILL DIE during x period of time..."
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Unread 06-12-2013, 09:11 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by Moog View Post
If you can do it (and it doesn't seem like anyone can do so accurately and consistently, or if they can, it's not to my knowledge), and they ask, then yes.



I would likely take it as a spur to enjoy the time we still have together to the utmost.
Yes that is very true. It's my mom and she has terminal cancer, so that is something i've strived to do every day. Still, it's a little strange to know the time in advance.
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Unread 06-12-2013, 09:18 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by Clinton Soule View Post
Ecclesiastes 3:1-4 "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: 2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;" (King James Version)
nice quote

Yes i'm a christian (well i guess i'd call it that if i had to label it) but this seems to fall into one of those grey areas as far as pro or anti God.

True at-one-ment wouldn't worry over death. And thus, would likely strive to bring others to that place...

And if it's actually helping others to predict, who knows. It might help some and hurt others depending on the person.
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Unread 06-12-2013, 09:22 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
I absolutely accept that it is ethical to point out potential critical periods, so that direct efforts can be made to influence the health and safety of an individual, during such potentially critical periods.
Equally (perhaps even more forcefully) I absolutely reject as being both ERRONEOUS, and unethical, declaring to someone..." you (or he or she) WILL DIE during x period of time..."
Very well said. There IS a middle ground! It's having a bit of subtlety :P especially as these types of things ARE so very uncertain. There is no point in freaking anyone out.
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Unread 06-12-2013, 09:30 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
A close friend who was terminal with breast cancer asked me the date of her death - after some deliberation I told her and she did die on that day. Unfortunately she had told other people what I said and they then became terrified of me to the point I haven't seen any of them since. I didn't cause her death, I just observed the astrological indications which clearly showed the timing.
I enjoyed reading those anecdotes. It's a shame that those people had that type of reaction. I am surprised you got it down to the exact day! Thank you for the link describing your technique (and to the others who have posted their links.)

I think it's best if i attempt to let this go, so as not to become a stress,

but if the thoughts persist, it will be good to check her chart with the other suggested techniques so i can get a bit more clarity.
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Unread 06-20-2013, 04:37 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

First, I'm sorry for what you are going through at this time in your life.

While I have had good results in looking at client's charts and seeing "challenging times" that could lead to a conclusion in their life, it has not approached 100% accuracy. Until my research shows that out of 1000 charts that I have predicted death and death occurred in all of them, then it is not something that I would personally bring up in a session. If a client asked, then I would give them my interpretation.

I've also found that sometimes what appears to be a clear path gets a little muddled during the retrograde and direct again periods. For example, the charts could look they are setting up and there is a planet moving into the 8th and activation of ascendent and the 4th but, one of the planets goes Retrograde ..... hmmmmm .... what looked like a carefully orchestrated dance has now lost one of the dance partners and instead of a death, there may be a fire, accident - serious but, maybe not death. Or maybe, timing is just delayed a bit.

Also and maybe not surprisingly, death sometimes shows up more clearly in the charts of the children or a spouse.

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Unread 06-20-2013, 10:36 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marinka;481116[FONT=Verdana
][/FONT]First, I'm sorry for what you are going through at this time in your life.

While I have had good results in looking at client's charts and seeing "challenging times" that could lead to a conclusion in their life, it has not approached 100% accuracy. Until my research shows that out of 1000 charts that I have predicted death and death occurred in all of them, then it is not something that I would personally bring up in a session. If a client asked, then I would give them my interpretation.

I've also found that sometimes what appears to be a clear path gets a little muddled during the retrograde and direct again periods. For example, the charts could look they are setting up and there is a planet moving into the 8th and activation of ascendent and the 4th but, one of the planets goes Retrograde ..... hmmmmm .... what looked like a carefully orchestrated dance has now lost one of the dance partners and instead of a death, there may be a fire, accident - serious but, maybe not death. Or maybe, timing is just delayed a bit.

Also and maybe not surprisingly, death sometimes shows up more clearly in the charts of the children or a spouse.

Modern medical advances and their impact on predicting the outcome of times of danger to the physical body/'Esse'/Life Force of any individual
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
Actually, the Hyleg and Alcocoden were to show the actual Life (Vital) Force in the particular person according to their condition in the chart.

Hyleg is the 'Giver of Life', or the giver of Vitality. Alcocoden is 'The Giver of Years'.

Bonatti call this 'Esse' or the Condition of the native.

We now can go further to see the root of the word 'Essential'.

So the Hyleg and Alcocoden are showing the Essentiality of the person's 'nature', and according to the planet's condition in the chart it was given the proportional amount of time for living.


As you've mentioned, in modern times this proportional time of living (by the conditions shown in the chart) is prolonged by the means of modern apparatus, though in my own experimenting with Hyleg and Alcocoden in the charts of already dead persons (of which I didn't knew the actual year of death while calculating) this number does not go further then 5-6 years - and +, though in most of the cases I was close to 1-2 year of the actual death.

We must say here that an accidental death is not count here. If a person dies from a serial killer, or in a car accident, or fell out of the bridge, it does not count.

Alcocoden and Hyleg, as I've said, shows the actual amount of Life Force, or the amount of Vitality, not the destiny of the end of time of particular man
.
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Unread 06-21-2013, 12:30 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

I find the point about the life force interesting. Most of the deaths I have seen in charts and verified were a passing because of issues like a heart attack, cancers, or accidents and in those cases, the life force went all at once (or I assumed at the time this was the case). But, your statements open up the question of life force and what it is comprised of and I might surmise it might be a combination of the brain, body, and soul. With this, I might think there is more than one passing that occurs when a person dies although it would look like one if they were close enough in time. This begs the question of how a death by Alzheimer's would appear versus a death where the brain/body is kept alive to be able to harvest the organs for transplant.
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Unread 06-21-2013, 05:47 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

I think only a truly experienced professional astrologer (like Alice) with a seriously good record of "practice" predictions-- not involving real people with real questions-- should engage in death prediction for clients. In other words, no.

There are multiple ways to predict death, and have been for centuries. It was a big preoccupation in ancient times, because people didn't live very long. In fact, astrologers might do a death prediction when a child was born, as there was no point in predicting the child's future if he would be claimed by the then-high rates of infant mortality.

Astrologers throughout the ages have had different methods of death prediction, and they don't all agree. The different methods lead to different answers.

Moreover, you have to look at basic demographics. The average American woman today will live into her 80s, based upon current life expectancy data. Yet the different death prediction methods, when summed up and applied to a large sample of charts, wouldn't show that over half of the American women today would live so long. Then most of these American women would be dead in their 90s just based on mortality rates-- a very compressed period for death prediction.

A similar cohort of women born in Afghanistan or AIDS-afflicted southern Africa today would show much more disparity in average death rates and life expectancy. Yet their birth data would be comparable to the Americans'.

You can't read death transparently off the 8th house.

Richard Houck published an entire book, The Astrology of Death. Unfortunately he got his own date of death too late by many years, as well misjudging his manner of death.

The problem is, you do see astrology learners frightening their friends with death predictions. Stuff like, "Your moon just progressed into your 8th house, so your mother is going to die."

Obviously the really good astrologers wouldn't write something like this, but they can inadvertently give encouragement to the wannabe seers, in implying that death prediction is a reasonable activity.

There are so many moral issues involving the power of suggestion. What if a poster or client is suicidal? I have seen one poster claim that an astrologer told her she would die by suicide!

What if a financially troubled son wants to know when his ageing Mummy is going to pop off, as he has power of attorney over her bank account and access to her credit card?

I have looked at a number of death and medical astrology charts. While I claim no expertise in traditional astrology (where this work began) with my intermediate level of modern astrology background, I don't think you can see why one person dies of an illness and another person recovers.

The argument is sometimes made that a death prediction will help a client get her affairs in order or say good-bye to loved ones. Well, shouldn't our papers always be in order, and shouldn't we always be in touch with people we love? We don't need an immanent death prediction to do this.

There is so much good and worthwhile astrology to practice that can help people, instead of frightening them.
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Last edited by waybread; 06-21-2013 at 05:51 AM.
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Unread 06-21-2013, 06:25 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Right-the estimation of potential life-critical times (which is the MOST I believe might be done by experts in this field) is for those who have a specialty in this area (or in the area of medical astrology), and such information must be handled with adroit diplomacy and mature judgement, by such expert practitioners.
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Unread 06-21-2013, 04:56 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Dr. Farr, I totally support the idea of warning people that their health might be especially sensitive at particular times. Or that they might be especially accident-prone. This is different than giving the finality of a death sentence.

For anyone who is at all religious in the J-C tradition, I might mention that the Bible actually doesn't say much about astrology (as opposed to soothsaying or prognostication more generally.) But the rationale is that a God who created the universe can easily overturn the predictions of "star-gazers," and that faith in God-- not faith in astrologers-- gets people through the difficult times (Isaiah 47:13.) We find a little of this in the catechism of the Catholic church ( item 2116)-- where some things or types of knowledge belong to God, not to fallible human beings.

I think very highly of Alice's expertise and compassion (she's my astro-hero) but I am concerned about giving legitimacy to a type of astrology that opens itself up to so much misuse and potential harm by the inexperienced, the badly-intended, or the just plain mistaken in calculations.

I think we also have to look at why astrologers would want this type of knowledge. If it is for a truly knowledgeable astrologer to genuinely help a select few people in distress, that's one thing. If it is for a Sorcerer's Apprentice type of person to feel like a magus or more important, then that is not a good reason.

PhoenixVenus: Think, too, if you give your terminally ill mother a death prediction and she lives two more years after that, just what have you accomplished in terms of your relationship? In terms of her comfort?
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 06-21-2013 at 04:59 PM.
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Unread 06-21-2013, 05:06 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

btw, here is the passage from the Catholic church's catechism. I am not now involved in any faith, let alone Catholic, and I do not view natal chart interpretation as forecasting the future. I am certainly not interested in conciliating "hidden powers"! Nevertheless, I take their point.

2116 "All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone."

For the religious mind, perhaps some things are best left to God.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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Unread 06-21-2013, 06:20 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marinka View Post
I find the point about the life force interesting. Most of the deaths I have seen in charts and verified were a passing because of issues like a heart attack, cancers, or accidents and in those cases, the life force went all at once (or I assumed at the time this was the case). But, your statements open up the question of life force and what it is comprised of and I might surmise it might be a combination of the brain, body, and soul. With this, I might think there is more than one passing that occurs when a person dies although it would look like one if they were close enough in time. This begs the question of how a death by Alzheimer's would appear versus a death where the brain/body is kept alive to be able to harvest the organs for transplant.
To inform the client that they need to take care of their health is not unethical - everyone has different morals so it's personal choice dependent on the wishes of the client - however it is imperative that the astrologer is well versed in these methods JMO
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