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  #1  
Unread 07-07-2007, 07:31 PM
Adrienne Adrienne is offline
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Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

Are people more predisposed to end up in prison if they have planets in the 12th house. What about people falsely accused of a crime, would they have particularly bad aspects in their chart ?

Just curious.

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Unread 07-07-2007, 11:12 PM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

The 12th house means a lot more than being incarcerated. It's the house that 'takes you out of the public eye', which can mean anything from spiritual retreats to hospitalisation to studying in the attic. Imprisonment is just one facet of the 12th house.

What I have personally noticed is that a harsh aspect to Saturn in the 12th house can , indeed, denote long-term incarceration but there would need to be aspects pertaining to criminal activity for it to mean imprisonment.

You might see Black Moon Lilith in a position for false accusations. After all, the person didn't actually DO anything. Things are not as they appear to be. You could also look at the position of Chiron, which could denote 'the scapegoat'; the person who is accused and tried instead of the true culprit. Saturn denotes guilt, so false accusations might also be found in its aspect with Neptune. By coincidence the two are now separating from a long-term opposition with each other.

Frisiangal.
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Unread 07-08-2007, 09:20 AM
jagetoile jagetoile is offline
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

deleted post.

Last edited by jagetoile; 01-08-2008 at 01:25 PM.
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Unread 07-08-2007, 11:51 PM
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

Good points Frisiangal. I don't see the 12th as active as one would think. I do see the Jupiter/Saturn midpoint triggered with arrests. With one I know that was falsly convicted, Saturn has no major aspects but is quindecile Pluto-Uranus, semisquare the Jupiter/Saturn mipoint. Saturn is also 7 degrees before BML who is semisquare Venus by 2*. One of his arrests, I know the Moon was void of course. His Chiron is in nebulous Pisces conjunct the asteroid Sphnix, very fitting his details. Jupiter is trine, Mars is inconjunct.

Another, Saturn is intercepted in Capricorn in the 1st, trine Pluto-Sun, now big conflict other than being Rx. His BML is square Neptune, the cause for multiple arrests, quindecile Aquarian Moon, semisquare Mars and inconjunct Jupiter/Saturn. Chiron is unaspected other than a wide conjunction by Moon. Noel Tyl would call this peregrine but I call it a virgin planet, untouchable. He has been arrested so many times he surely should have a felony for the 3 strikes your out but they never do it. I've wondered if he is beneficial to them where he's at. He lost his licience at 18 for a drunk driving and 20 years later still hasn't gotten it back because he keeps being arrested for the same or for driving without a licience. It's interesting that he has the same rising degree, 26Sag, that Barbara Hand Clow gives Chiron. He's also interesting because he has his Sun at the exact same degree and minute as I do, and we just happen to share the same father. He's my brother. He was born during a leap year, the day before my birthday, at just the right time to match my Sun. He is such a special guy, he just seems to have this obsession with drugs and alcohol. He's so talented and such a good, skilled worker.
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Unread 07-09-2007, 10:43 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

[quote=jagetoile]
Quote:
hi Frisiangal, i'm interested in your study in the BML. what you evoked above about the BML in relation to the false accusations is very interesting. do you have some handy examples for that? do you observe the BML in such situations in the natal chart or in a trasit chart? thanks
Hello Jag,
I study the position of MEAN BML and everything I write about its significance has come from observation of its effects in a chart. The last 8 years in natal but nowadays also through transit and progression. I don't have Aquarian Essence's expertise with, and have never studied the inclusion of midpoints and asteroids to get to the 'finer points'.

Adrienne's comment comes at a time when MEAN BML has been transiting Libra....the scales of justice...., so that makes me wonder if there's something going on in the chart of the person to whom she may be referring that coincides with a false accusation (even to relationship stealing of the boyfriend/partner), as well as providing more food for thought as to what BML might also mean in this sign natally.
By coincidence my daughter has had transiting BML going through her 7th house. O.K, she 'felt' physically attracted to someone amd made the mistake of mentioning it to her husband. Her husband has since openly accused her of all the negative names and actions associated with the Lilith myth, which are totally unfounded by any sort of action. It has resulted in positive counselling (I think of tr. BML as the 'presence' of the counsellor ) to bring many hidden things to the surface.

For me, BML implies non-manifestation on a physical level (outer reality). Yet it has everything to do with the strength of creative images ( inner reality) that can make thing seems to be that which they are not. Obviously this can work to or against a person's advantage. I've noticed that, in transit, it often refers to what IS NOT physically occuring than what is! You may or may not remember the M. Jackson and Peter Townshend (The Who) cases who were both 'accused' of intimate crimes a few years ago. I put all my faith in the position of MEAN BML in both their natal charts and active transits to/from MEAN BML at the time. I actually wrote on a forum weeks before the outcome could ever have been known, that the case against Jackson would be unfounded and that Townshend would never even be officially charged. A really good point gained for BML when it turned out to be so.

Whilst MEAN BML was transiting Taurus through Gemini in the chart of a famous person in my country (unaspected natal BML in Scorpio), I mentioned in an article that the transit referred to hidden values (Taurus) that could come to light as truth, whilst the transit from Gemini could refer to thoughts of actions regarding relatives which never had and would take place. Another good point for BML's accuracy was later revealed.

Regards,
Frisiangal.
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Unread 07-09-2007, 11:34 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

[quote=AquarianEssence]
Quote:
With one I know that was falsly convicted, Saturn has no major aspects but is also 7 degrees before BML ...............
His Chiron is in nebulous Pisces ............. Mars is inconjunct.

Another, Saturn is intercepted in Capricorn in the 1st, ....being Rx. His BML is square Neptune, the cause for multiple arrests,.... semisquare Mars and inconjunct Jupiter/Saturn.
....... He lost his licience at 18 for a drunk driving and 20 years later still hasn't gotten it back because he keeps being arrested for the same or for driving without a licience.
............. he just seems to have this obsession with drugs and alcohol.

Would that be TRUE BML. A.E ?

Those so-called malefics surely do their work well, don'they?

My own thoughts regarding Saturn and MEAN BML is the difference between physical guilt and wrongful blame. A problem between reality and irreality arises as result of a lack of self-controling discipline, or the rejection of/from any sort of authority (figure).
If the person is guilty of a crime as charged, I don't think BML will show up in aspect. It's when the charge has 'no foundation in fact' that BML appears to make its presence well and truly felt.

Regards,

Fri(e)siangal
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Unread 07-09-2007, 02:55 PM
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

Yes, but the 1st example has only a half degree between them. My brother has mean intercepted at a critical degree, 13Cancer, a completely different sign still in the in the 7th, so is opposing Saturn at 11Cap which happens to be my north node. Sun is sextile mean BML. In one arrest of his I looked at, tr. true was sitting right on his Pluto with mean exact to Venus, Pluto sitting on ascendant. Venus was exact inconjunct, just separating natal true, with Saturn trine. So what you point out is backed up with this one, he was actually guilty of breaking the law. He was pulled over for driving without a licience and arrested on a bench warrent for leaving the scene of a fender bender accident last winter. He fled because he was driving without a licience. He live in the country and its very hard to find housing within walking or bus distance from a job around here. So he always continues to drive. A lot of his planets have natural dignity, Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, Saturn, so even his non dignified or peregrine planets have dignity through dispositor. His Chiron and interception tell his story with Neptune square True BML I think. And then there is the possiblity that he is is learning how to heal the fact that a driver's licience is considered a privilage rather than necessity in todays society by our law enforcement when it is nearly impossible to survive on your own without driving. But the state gets more income this way, huge fees.
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Unread 07-31-2007, 07:06 AM
Shining Ray Shining Ray is offline
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

I have seen some 12th house activity in charts of people going to prison but it is less the inner planets in this house but seems to be either Saturn/Uranus/Neptune or Pluto in the 12th. I haven't examined a lot of charts but from memory I have seen these planets in the 12th house. Saturn in Pisces I have noticed comes up a lot too. But with Saturn in 12th there is feeling of being restricted and locked in a psychological cell of their own making. And there are others who literally are in jail. O.J Simpson has Saturn and Pluto in the 12th house and he has luckily escaped jail, even though he was going to write a book on how he would have murdered his wife. Does not sound too sane to me. His little Jupiter in 3rd/Scorpio trying to cash in on the deaths of two people by getting a book deal. If he did murder his ex wife then he has to live in his own private cell of deep/guilt (Saturn/Pluto 12th).

But there are probably plenty of charts that don't have any 12th house planets but if there were accurate birth times for thousands of criminals I would bet that the 12th house slammer would have either Saturn/Uranus/Neptune/Pluto there in a high number of charts. But then I am going to backtrack now and a lot of people who work in prisons and hospitals have 12th house placements and they are not criminals. It is hard with Astrological study to differentiate between a violent criminals chart who is in jail and someone who works in hospitals in medical emergency a lot of similar significators are going to overlap.
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Unread 07-31-2007, 08:00 AM
Shining Ray Shining Ray is offline
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

This thread got me thinking, and I wondered would we be able to tell the difference between charts with similar themes i.e 12th house. The 12th house is also the house of spirituality. So I have chosen 2 charts. There is a chart of a spiritualist evangeilist who spreads his gospel message across to millions of people, and a chart on a rapist/murderer who went to jail and was sentenced to death. A lot of you have probably seen the charts or at least one of them. So if you have seen the chart before - keep quiet or do what I would do and make myself look clever by guessing correctly even if I did know the chart. Interstingly there is a Scorpio/Sagittarius theme running through both of them - ha ha ha (my evil laugh ).

Chart 1


Shot at 2007-07-31

Chart 2


Shot at 2007-07-31
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Unread 07-31-2007, 05:59 PM
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

Okay, Shining Ray! You know I can't resist your little guessing games!

I think the first chart is the preacher. This is why:

Jupiter in Cancer in the 4th, along with Pluto - "Calling people "home" to the "family of God".
Moon/Mars conjunction in Sag in the 9th. - emphasis on morality, conscience, "the law".
North Node/Sag/9th and South Node/Gem/3rd - the free will axis - (the message being "whosoever wills")
Saturn in Leo in the 6th, daily service involved being in the limelight.
Uranus in Aquarius in the 11th - possibly a forerunner in using television/radio to reach large groups of people - this sextiles his Moon/Mars in Sag/9th

Sun and Mercury, both in Scorpio/8th - charismatic speaker with great drawing power. Sun in tight semi-sextile with TN. Mercury squaring Uranus in the 11th -challenging people to change. Mercury semisextiles Moon in Sag. Mercury trines Chiron at 29* Pisces/12th - message of transformation to those in need of mercy?

Also, his Neptune in 5th - an image seen through creative medium (tv screen) seeming larger than life. He may have received a lot of ego gratification through his ministry- being seen as important, with this placement and his Saturn (lessons) in Leo/6th.

However, his "salvation" message, may have an emphasis on "hell", and he may not have truly, in his heart of hearts, ever really understood the true meaning of Christ. I see this as a possibility from too much emphasis on "the law" in his chart. His message was probably one of God's mercy IF you believed exactly the way his message was preached - there is no other way to receive it. He probably had little true understanding of the feminine principle of God - his Pluto and Jupiter are both retrograde in Cancer,4th, so lessons to be learned - chiron retrograde, as well.

This is further emphasized by Jupiter inconjunct his North Node, and his Sun inconjunct his South node. He did not truly understand free will, and there was an element of coerciveness, manipulation, etc in an undercurrent of his message. Interestingly, the Scorpio/8th/Sag/9th combo is an indicator of "mind control" - a message of "only one way", and an underlying implied threat if you don't accept this as the one way. His Mercury in Scorpio/8th exact semisextile his Moon in Sag/9th (which is conjunct Mars)- definitely sounds like a crusader preaching "God's will" to me.




Okay, the second chart - by default, the rapist/murderer.

Scorpio/Sag is also sometimes indicative of rapist/murderers, so it's odd that both charts have the same sign emphasis.

But this one has Scorpio/Sag emphasis in the 4th. This would imply a history of sexual abuse from childhood. 4th house also rules "soul memory", so was probably this way in past lives, as well. Mars in Sag conjunct South Node, would probably be a strong indicator of this. The lower vibration of Mars in Sag includes rape and murder. This trines (flows with) his Sat/Pluto conjunction in Leo/12th.

Chiron and Jupiter in 3rd, Jup conjunct IC, would indicate a lot of lies, deceit, and emotional manipulation, and power gained from this as training ground for him in his childhood.

Moon in Sag/4th opposing Uranus/Gemini/10th - possibly anger against an overbearing, controlling mother, also maybe a split personality.

Neptune in Libra/2nd - allure of the physical beauty of another in a partnership? This sextiles his Saturn/Pluto conjunction in Leo, which is what landed him in prison(12th house)- crossing other people's sexual boundaries to take their physical body. This conjunction is also squared by his Jupiter in Scorpio, and sextiled by his Mars/SN conjunction in the 4th. Clearly, he had no regard for people's free will choices, and thinks that he is allowed to cross their choices and take what he wants.
The sad thing is that this was probably done to him as a child, and he never was able to rise above it. (Sat/Pluto in Leo - lost childhood, victimized child.)

I do find it interesting the things that these charts have in common, and how one could be mistaken for the other. Okay, Shining Ray, how'd I do?
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Unread 07-31-2007, 06:20 PM
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

My guess is the 2nd one is the rapist. He has hidden in the 12th house that he was raped by his father figure. The part of rape is critical 21Leo57 rising but hidden in the 12th house that is in the Guadeline sector, separating square with Venus the women in his family karma house.

The preacher's part of rape isn't so prominant. It's at 0Tau09 not in close major aspect or at the solstice point of anything.

PO rape is calculated as Sun+Ne-UR and yes, I've seen it work, even if I'm wrong here.
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Unread 07-31-2007, 08:17 PM
Shining Ray Shining Ray is offline
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

Hi Freedomlover and Aquarianessence

Your guesses are right.

The 1st chart is evangelist Billy graham

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Graham

The 2nd chart is Rapist/Murderer Ted Bundy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_bundy

I thought with the charts being so similar it might have made it harder. Excellent analysis freedomlover, you were right about quite a few things in the charts. The part of rape calculation turned out to be right, I have never really tried the arabic parts in astrology, I will have to look into it more .
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Unread 07-31-2007, 08:33 PM
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

Yeahhhhhhhhhhh for us That's funny, Billy Grahm passed thorugh my mind for a split second. He's one of the few evengelists that hasn't fallen.
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Unread 08-01-2007, 11:56 AM
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

Very interesting what you have done here! It`s a pitty I came later for guessing.
Can you do it another of this games? It`s quite useful to practice interpreting ^_^
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Unread 08-01-2007, 03:44 PM
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

Shining Ray,

Quote:
Excellent analysis freedomlover, you were right about quite a few things in the charts.
Yeah!!! I'm improving! But those were two charts I didn't have to "strain" very hard to interpret - it just seemed apparent. That seems to be the way with me - either it comes to me easy, or it's not for me to interpret the chart. So, what were the things I correctly identified, and what were the things I missed?

It's funny... I used to read alot about Ted Bundy- knew his story well- and it never once occurred to me that I was reading his chart. Billy Graham was one of a few I thought it might be. However, I had not seen either of the charts before.

And I agree with Circe, can we do another? Your games are always so much fun, and you do such a good job in setting them up.

Aquarian Essence,
Quote:
My guess is the 2nd one is the rapist. He has hidden in the 12th house that he was raped by his father figure. The part of rape is critical 21Leo57 rising but hidden in the 12th house that is in the Guadeline sector, separating square with Venus the women in his family karma house.

The preacher's part of rape isn't so prominant. It's at 0Tau09 not in close major aspect or at the solstice point of anything.

PO rape is calculated as Sun+Ne-UR and yes, I've seen it work, even if I'm wrong here.
I am extremely interested in how this works. Somewhere I have an Arabic Parts calculator link. It is Sun + Ne-UR - that is Sun+Neptune-Uranus?
Is the Part of Rape also prominent in women who have experienced this?
Would you mind to take a look at my chart in link below and tell me where mine is, and any insight you have about it?
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Unread 08-01-2007, 07:02 PM
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

This part was formulated by the WSA Research Group of California, headed by Jeannette Glenn. I found it in True Crime Astrology by Edna Rowland. Yours is Sun , 6*10 of the 11th sign + Neptune, 20*20 of the 8th sign = 26*30 or the 17th sign, - Uranus, 19*18 of the 6th sign= 6*12 of the 11th sign or 2Aq12. It is awfully close to your Moon, sextile Sun but he is square the other father figure, Saturn. It is also opposing Vertex in the 8th. Were you molested by a family member perhaps as young as 6 years old or at 12-13?

My sister's part isn't very prominant in the natal other than being in the 1st house but when it was contacted by arc she was raped. When it arced to her ascendant the line was crossed by a family member. The dispositor, Jupiter is conjunct Rx Saturn in Capricorn but separating as yours is with the Moon. Another I know whos been raped has hers in the 6th square Venus and Jupiter and opposing Neptune while being sextile the vertex in the 8th. She was 13 and it was an aquaintance. The other two players, Sun and Uranus are opposing. Sun rules 8. When she was raped it had arced to conjunct the south node, sextile Chiron, inconjunct the Moon, trine MC, sextile IC.
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Unread 08-01-2007, 07:59 PM
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

Aquarian Essence,

Thanks so very much for figuring that for me. I dont' quite follow the math - I know you're using the degrees my planets are at, but I don't follow the "__TH-sign" lingo. I really need to find that arabic parts calculator link!

Quote:
This part was formulated by the WSA Research Group of California, headed by Jeannette Glenn. I found it in True Crime Astrology by Edna Rowland. Yours is Sun , 6*10 of the 11th sign + Neptune, 20*20 of the 8th sign = 26*30 or the 17th sign, - Uranus, 19*18 of the 6th sign= 6*12 of the 11th sign or 2Aq12. It is awfully close to your Moon, sextile Sun but he is square the other father figure, Saturn. It is also opposing Vertex in the 8th. Were you molested by a family member perhaps as young as 6 years old or at 12-13?
I was molested by an uncle that lived with us. It began around the age of 2 or 3, actually. I'm not sure how long it lasted, because I didn't remember any of it until around 35. From dreams I've had and what psychics have told me they have seen, it began around 2 or 3 and lasted on and off for several years. There may have something extremely traumatic in the abuse that happened around age 6, like maybe taking it to a worse level, I don't know. To this day I have no conscious remembrance of this - like it didn't happen and I'm making it up. I think this may be a major factor as to why I feel so "spacey". As to age 12 or 13, my uncle moved out of the house around that time, so it definitely ended around that time, as I think it only saw him 2 or 3 times the rest of my life after that. I have one remembrance around age 15, when he came back to get some things he had left. I was alone in the house. He was drunk (he was an alcoholic) and wanted to sit with me on the bench while I played the piano. I scooted over, but was absolutely terrified the whole time. He didn't say or do anything out of line, but just his mere presence was terrifying to me. I couldn't understand why I was so terrified of my uncle. I always wondered why that incident was emblazoned in my memory - now I know.

It is also interesting that when my Progressed ASC reached the Part of Rape at 2*Aquarius, I left my husband, who had forced sex on me for years. The Part of Rape is almost exactly on my Venus 22*Cap/Moon 7*Aquarius midpoint-it being appx. 0*Aquarius. Is that close enough to count as hitting my midpoint? Also, of note, is the fact that my ex-husband's name asteroid is conjunct my natal moon with a 1 degree orb.

I know this is a prison and incarceration thread, and this may seem off-topic, but it really isn't. I have been imprisoned by this pretty much my entire life.
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Unread 08-01-2007, 08:03 PM
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

Hi Freedomlover,

Quote:
Yeah!!! I'm improving! But those were two charts I didn't have to "strain" very hard to interpret - it just seemed apparent.
You could have least pretended it was difficult. Clever clogs.


Quote:
And I agree with Circe, can we do another? Your games are always so much fun, and you do such a good job in setting them up.
I will see if I can find any interesting charts, and post them on another thread. You will probably guess them correctly too.
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Unread 08-01-2007, 08:38 PM
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

Sometimes things that show up in dreams or through psychics can possible be a past life connection and experience also. That could explain why you have no conscious memory of it but we also push out of our memory what is painful. I have many blank periods in my early life. I would think though, that if you dream and have it revealed later in life that it would resurface as a conscious memory, but maybe not. This is a good opportunity for you to heal it though, so you don't have to carry it forward with you.

There is a typo in my previous post. 11th should be 9th. The th signs refer to the natural house of that sign. The Sun is in the 9th sign, Sagittarius, Neputune is in the 8th sign, Scorpio and Uranus is in the 6th sign, Virgo. 9+8=17-6=11, Aquarius. You can also use the actual degrees, ie Sun=246*10', etc. That makes it easier if you end up with a larger number to subtract than you start with.
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Unread 08-03-2007, 08:02 PM
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

Aquarian Essence,

You wrote:
Quote:
Sometimes things that show up in dreams or through psychics can possible be a past life connection and experience also. That could explain why you have no conscious memory of it but we also push out of our memory what is painful. I have many blank periods in my early life. I would think though, that if you dream and have it revealed later in life that it would resurface as a conscious memory, but maybe not. This is a good opportunity for you to heal it though, so you don't have to carry it forward with you.
You are correct in this statement. I do have a past life history of being raped - as a prisoner, no less. The childhood molestation memories have never fully surfaced, but they may one day.

It's interesting how the Universe will try to bring things to your attention. My first indication of this was in Winter 1995. This is when I first realized that I had to get away from my husband who was sexually abusing me. My mother had just died and left an inheritance and her house, so I was financially able to do so. But I went on a trip alone and got a hotel room for a few days to think things over in quiet. I checked in at a Holiday Inn. When I went to get the phone book out of a drawer, I noticed an envelope in the drawer. I picked it up and opened the flap. It was full of child pornography pictures involving a small girl, maybe 3 or 4. I remember being totally shocked, but didn't connect it at the time. I was not on a spiritual learning path at that time, and did not know about Divine Guidance and synchronicities. But looking back on it now, I see that the Universe was trying to show me that this is why I was desperate to get away from my husband. He was doing the same thing to me my uncle did as a little child. So even if you have blocked out the memories (as I obviously did) the Universe still has ways of getting you in touch with what happened. (I didn't begin to remember any of the memories until November 2000).

In the last few days, I was able to release the energy of it, or at least most of it. I had to realize how angry I was about it first.

Thanks again for your help!

Freedomlover
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Unread 08-03-2007, 08:17 PM
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

Freedomlover is a very good moniker. You're bringing things forward so they can be healed and released. May we all do the same so we don't carry the hurt forward. I can't fathom why anyone would get into being with a child in that way. One possibility that came to mind is that they were lacking the intimate nurturing they needed as a child and this is how they try to substitute. There is a fine line between sex and nurturning. In fact, sex is one form of nurturing each other in a healthy relationship.

Another question I've had is how the 5th house in traditional western astrogy became the house of love, lovers, sex and children. A child should be the result of loving sex but to have the child and lover in the same place with sex seems odd.
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Unread 08-03-2007, 08:43 PM
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

Aquarian Essence,

You wrote:

Quote:
One possibility that came to mind is that they were lacking the intimate nurturing they needed as a child and this is how they try to substitute. There is a fine line between sex and nurturning. In fact, sex is one form of nurturing each other in a healthy relationship.
It's interesting that you should say this. A few years ago, I did some work with a Shaman, who contacted my deceased uncle. ( My understanding was that he had remained earthbound.) She contacted him and he said that he did it because "He wanted you to love him." My grandmother (his mother) was extremely cold and detached. Both of the boys turned out to be child molesters. The oldest boy molested my mother and her sister (his younger sisters). Then the younger brother molested me and my older sister, as he lived with us when we were small.
Quote:
Another question I've had is how the 5th house in traditional western astrogy became the house of love, lovers, sex and children. A child should be the result of loving sex but to have the child and lover in the same place with sex seems odd.
This is how I see it:

True balance of any sign requires a balance of all four elements in whatever cross that sign is part of (fixed for Leo) in order for the sign to express itself in a healthy way. When things get out of balance, you have perversion of the sign. The farther out of balance, the worse the perversion.

I read once that many **** stars had Moon in Aquarius, or heavy Aquarius placements. This is because, in the perversion of the energies of the fixed cross, out-of-balance Aquarian energies are devoid of emotional bonding, and in it for the pleasure and/or the money only. This is alot of what is wrong with society today - the casual sex that is a perversion of the fixed cross energies. If there is no emotional bonding and commitment, you have emotional barriers and emotional manipulation, which actually accomplish the opposite of what sex was intended for. Possessiveness can also cause some perversion, if you are trying to use sex to hang on to the wrong person, or if they don't really want to be with you. (Right use of Aquarian energies required).

In a totally balanced expression of the fixed cross, there will be an emphasis on the Scorpio house of soul mates and emotional bonding. (The two become one.) Ideally emotions would be entirely healed and the individuals would both have a great degree of empathic healing ability.
There would be no possessiveness and there would be equality and free will. There would be an honoring and equality of the Divine Feminine with the Divine Masculine.

Also, important in the balance of the energies of the fixed cross, and to keep sex free of perversion, is the respect for the body and the Earth - a need to be grounded and have your root chakra clear.

And going back to your question about the 5th house, Leo representing sex and the child. Well, in the perversion of the energies, as in casual sex, the people obviously don't realize what they are doing and what great damage they are causing to their souls and bodies by engaging in such. So, they are ignorant and spiritually immature. Is that really that much different than child molestation? Yes, the adult is using free will and realizes more of what is happening than the child. But the damage done to them in spirit, soul, and body, is very similar to the damage done to the child who meekly went along with their molester. Would the average person engage in casual sex if they really, really knew what kind of energies were involved and the damage it does?

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Last edited by freedomlover; 08-03-2007 at 08:49 PM.
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Unread 08-04-2007, 12:47 PM
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Re: Prison, incarceration & the astrology houses

I still think the 8th is the physical act of sex and the 5th is where you learn how to honor sex through love. The failure to learn how to, not only balance the opposite axis, but also integrate the squares harmoniously is where the perversion would come in. As for your last statement, I think that casual sex is probably seeking love and if love were there it wouldn't be casual. But then, one also has to recognize that sex has a primary function of procreation and those instincts are there wether we have a love relationship or not and wether we have sufficiently procreated or not. So what would be termed casual sex is often the body acting on instinct. If the person "is love" then no contact with another person is casual but has deep significance, so even a one night stand can be embrased by love, maybe not the kind we think of for living together happily ever after but still love and mutual respect. Back in the day, there were vestals that saw to mans needs who didn't have a mate and their view was one of joining man with God through the sacred act of sex. That would be labeled casual sex, I guess, but it really wasn't.
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Unread 08-04-2007, 04:05 PM
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About the 5th and 8th house, to Aquarian

Aquarian,

It can help to understand the difference between the 5th and 8th house if we keep in mind their placement relative to the 7th house (relationships). The 5th house is before the 7th house, so the 5th house is about the kind of romantic love we have before we are "serious" and partnering with someone. This "romantic love" includes dating, casual sex, etc. The 8th house is after the 7th house, so the 8th house is about the results that come out of the 7th house partnership. So "sexual love" (making a baby, having married sex, etc.) comes from the 8th house. Ideally we date around until we find the best romantic partner for us (5th house), make some form of commitment to the partnership (7th house), and then form a bond with the partner that includes sex (8th house). However, in the real, non-idea world, some people only want to date and others only want to partner!

In different houses,

Tim
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Unread 08-04-2007, 05:31 PM
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Re: About the 5th and 8th house, to Aquarian

Aquarian Essence,

You wrote:
Quote:
I still think the 8th is the physical act of sex and the 5th is where you learn how to honor sex through love. The failure to learn how to, not only balance the opposite axis, but also integrate the squares harmoniously is where the perversion would come in.
Yes, that statement was inherent in what I was saying, I just didn't spell it out by the houses. The 8th would have to deal with the physical act, because it includes the polarity of the 2nd, which is an Earth house, so it is the merging of both the bodies(2nd) and the souls (8th). The auras blend, and this is how you can pick up negative energy from the other through sex. Of course, I would think you can pick up positive energy as well, and that's why sacred sex is healing. My understanding of the 5th house is that it is the house of the "open heart, that both gives and receives love". In the lower vibrations, the heart is not truly open to giving and receiving, and sex pretty much is ego-based.
Quote:
If the person "is love" then no contact with another person is casual but has deep significance, so even a one night stand can be embrased by love, maybe not the kind we think of for living together happily ever after but still love and mutual respect.
That thought has occurred to me before. I think it may be possible.... in a perfect world. I read something in one of Sylvia Browne's books on the Other Side(Heaven) that comes to mind. She said that in the Spirit Realm there is no sex as we know it, but they "merge" with others by joining their spirits with another, and that it is very blissful. (no bodies, of course). They were not confined to just one person to merge with either. So, if we are free of impurities and have the goal of just wanting to be One with the other in pure love, then that would be possible. Unfortunately the world does not work that way right now.

Quote:
Back in the day, there were vestals that saw to mans needs who didn't have a mate and their view was one of joining man with God through the sacred act of sex. That would be labeled casual sex, I guess, but it really wasn't.
I was vaguely aware of the practice, but really don't know anything about it. My jury is out on this one until I find out more information to form an opinion. Thanks for bringing it up!

WilsonTC,

You wrote:
Quote:
It can help to understand the difference between the 5th and 8th house if we keep in mind their placement relative to the 7th house (relationships). The 5th house is before the 7th house, so the 5th house is about the kind of romantic love we have before we are "serious" and partnering with someone. This "romantic love" includes dating, casual sex, etc. The 8th house is after the 7th house, so the 8th house is about the results that come out of the 7th house partnership. So "sexual love" (making a baby, having married sex, etc.) comes from the 8th house. Ideally we date around until we find the best romantic partner for us (5th house), make some form of commitment to the partnership (7th house), and then form a bond with the partner that includes sex (8th house). However, in the real, non-idea world, some people only want to date and others only want to partner!
Yes, I agree, that should be the progression, and that is inherent in the example I gave of the fixed signs without perversion. However, the area where it still goes wrong, even if one follows this pattern, (How many times have I heard horror stories from women who said, "But I waited until I got married!!!", and still have awful problems) is this: 7th house/marriage is naturally ruled by Libra. Libra is part of the cardinal fixed cross. Therefore a balance of the four signs needs to be achieved to avoid perversion. For example, Capricorn rules respect for God's natural laws, or the perversion of them, including respect for the Earth and things created. Capricorn also rules the world's system of money, big business, etc. Capricorn also rules "Heaven's Gate".

If there is balance in the Cardinal cross, there is an element of personal mastery, and cooperation with God's natural laws and respect for the earth (including restoration of the Divine Feminine). Then all four elements flow together and cooperate, alleviating the friction of the squares. If you will notice, one of the biggest problems in marriages is money, if even just working for it for survival. (Sadly in many marriages - and singles- the focus is not just on survival, but on acquiring more and more earthly possessions, stockpiling money, etc.--all perversion of Earth signs) This causes focus on obtaining the needs of life, instead of focusing on relationships. In God's economy, your physical needs are provided so that you can focus on relationships, which is what marriage is all about. The polarity of Capricorn is key, in most cases. Capricorn's lower vibration denies, belittles, etc, the emotions of its polarity, Cancer. Cancer's emotions must always be taken into account, as well. If you are not operating in God's economy, according to natural law, with your focus on being love, Capricorn will always be a hard square on the marriage. If emotions go unhealed, Cancer will always be a hard square on the marriage.

Quoting the words of Jesus, from Matthew Chapter 6, vs. 19-33:

19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 “But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; 21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 “The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. 23 “But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

The Cure for Anxiety

25 “For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 “Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? 27 “And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life? 28 “And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, 29 yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. 30 “But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith! 31 “Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ 32 “For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Notice there is nothing wrong with enjoying life on Earth, as long as your focus is on the right things.

So, Tim, what you pointed out in the chart is very true, with the critical point being the balance of the Cardinal energies (both partners seeking the Kingdom of God and choosing to follow God's laws) when the marriage is entered into.

Freedomlover
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Last edited by freedomlover; 08-04-2007 at 06:14 PM.
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