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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 05-03-2012, 05:14 PM
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Delineating Children (Medieval Method)

"When will I marry", "How many children I'll have" - these are the most frequent questions of the people who are interested in astrology.
Here I will explain the method of delineation of fertility or sterility of the chart.
Guessing the number of children is a very tricky thing, but delineating whether there will be few, many or no children at all is quite possible and this art can predict that.

Well, I do not have a lot of affinity toward theory and there fore I will grab my pen and scribe the rules directly, so we can later practically delineate charts and see the rules on practical example charts.

Here's what Lilly says about the fertility or sterility of the Signs (I know that Lilly is not medieval astrologer, but he draws a lot from the medieval sources):

Aries: By reason Mars, a sterill planet hath that for his house, and the Sun for Exaltation, is rather a Sign of Barrennesse than otherwise.
Taurus: Is reputed more fruitful than barren, being the house of Venus, who is fruitful, and the exaltation of the Moon.
Gemini: Is adjudged barren, being the house of Mercury, who discerns nothing of himself.
Cancer is the most fruitful and bountiful Sign, it being the house of the Moon, and the exaltation of Jupiter.
Leo: Is reputed barren, being the house of the Sun, and Lyons bring forth Young rarely.
Virgo: Hath the name of the barren Signe, for Mayds of themselves produce no Births &c.
Libra
: Rather a Signe of fecundity, it being the house of Venus, and Saturn his exaltation [4].
Scorpio: Though the house of Mars, yet generally accepted for fruitful.
Sagittarius: Ever conceived fruitfull, because the house of Jupiter.
Capricorn: A Signe of few children inclining to barrennesse.
Aquarius: Without doubt more fruitful than barren.
Pisces: Very fecund and prolificall, being the House of Jupiter and exaltation of Venus, its Signe of many Children.

Fruitful Houses:
1/11/10/7 and 5th.

Fruitful Planets:
Jupiter/Venus/Moon (Mercury is fruitful but if joined with Sun, Mars or Saturn can go to the sterility side).
Sun (because of the heat) and the 2 Malefics are sterile planets.

Pars Filorum (Part of Children):
ASC + SA - JU for a day births, reversed for night ones.

1. Look at 1st, 11th, 10th or 7th house, and see if there are some of the Significators for Children: Jupiter, Venus, Moon, Mercury, Lord of the 5th, Pars Fortuna, Pars Filorum and their Lords; or notice if the planets who deny children are there.

Bonatti:
Quote:
If at least some of the aforesaid planets signifying children are in
the specified houses or even in the 5th and the said planets are for*-
tunate and strong and aspected by the benefics by a trine or sextile
with or without reception, or even by a square with reception, it
signifies that the native will undoubtedly have children unless the
saidsignificator is within 1minute ofsomefixed star ofthe nature
of Mars or Saturn. However if the significators are weak, they
show that the children will be few.

Quote:
But if none of the aforesaid significators were there & the pars for-
tunae or pars filiorum were there and any of the malefics should
aspect the said part it completely denies children whether they are
weak or strong, unless by chance, a benefic trines or sextiles the
malefic with reception or it (the malefic) were with a fixed star
of the nature of Jupiter, Venus or the Moon in the same minute,
and let it not be in Leo, Virgo, Libra, Capricorn or Aquarius or in
Taurus. Mercury varies depending on the nature ofthe planet it is
joined with.
Bonatti also says that if one of the significators for children are in the aforesaid places, and this planet happens to be Void of Course, then this means that the native will have only one child.
(Some argue about this and say that Bonatti here refers to Horary Delineation).

Examples in the next post.

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Unread 05-03-2012, 05:34 PM
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Jessie Jackson - Delineating Children

As in other delineations, here we will also do an ex post facto astrology delineation, this is the way of learning.

Astrodatabank rapports 5 children of Jessie Jackson but it seems out that he has 6 (the one in his later years with his mistress).



We look for the planets in the fruitful houses.
Venus a fruitful planet is in the 10th in a fruitful sign (Scorpio).
For beginning this a good indicator. We see Mercury 6 degrees away from the MC in the same sign. (Mercury with Venus would be fruitful planet and in this case it is ruler of 5th and dispositor of Jupiter in 5th).
Next, we see Jupiter (ruler of 11th and 7th by exaltation). The thing that Jupiter is in barren sign does not impede him because Mercury its dispositor is in fruitful sign and house with Venus.

We see no Malefics in the aforesaid places.
The nasty Saturn retrograde from 4th oppositing Venus can bring problems, but not in the matter of producing children, he did brought problems in the scandalous children rumors with his mistress. (Notice also that Venus is opposite with Moon (another fruitful planet).

So, because Venus, Mercury and Jupiter are on the fruitful places and because no Malefic is impeding these houses, we can judge that the native will have many children.
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Unread 05-03-2012, 05:51 PM
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No Children example

Delineating No Children in celebrity charts is a bit tricky thing. Why? Because the chart may show fertility but the person decided not to have children at all.
However, there are charts like the following one, where sterility is shown very clearly.
We all know the famous astrologer Steven Forrest. Even though I now study Traditional Astrology, I still appreciate and respect Stevie a lot. He is a wonderful astrologer and very beautiful soul.

A little digression. I've just notice that both: Steven Forrest and Robert Zoller are born in Mount Vernon :-)
This is an excellent information, both are leaders in their astrology fields of studies. Very interesting thing.

Lets look at the chart of Steven Forrest.


We see immediatelly Saturn in 10th in barren sign.
We see Moon in 5th in barren sign.
Pars Fortunae in 10th in barren sign.
Pars Filorum falls in 4th house in Pisces, but its dispositor Jupiter is in Capricorn - one of the most barren signs.
Almuten of 5th - the Sun is in Capricorn too.
Mercury ruler and almuten of 10th is combust and in Capricorn too.
Venus is 5 degrees awau from the 2nd house so she too falls in 2nd (and not in 1st!).

These are many indicators for not having children.
One would judge:
"The person will have very few children or none at all".
We always leave possibility because of the Moon in 5th, but bearing in mind the thought that it is in the sign of Malefic Mars, and Mars is not in very fruitful sign either. Aquarius is fruitful but not one of the most fruitful (as Cancer or Pisces).
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Unread 05-03-2012, 06:50 PM
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Unable to have children - female

Family : Parenting : Kids none (Unable to have children)

The actress Ann-Margret


Ascendant Gemini - barren.
Mars in 10th.
Pars Filorum in 3Gemini, that is 12th house.

No fruitful planets in fruitful houses.
10th house in Capricorn - barren sign.
5th house in Leo - barren Sign. (Ruler - Sun in 12th).

There is no single indicator for having children. She was unable to have children.
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Unread 05-03-2012, 07:51 PM
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Female - No Children



Virgo rising - barren sign (Virgo's can't produce child).
No planets in 10th, 11th or 7th.
Mars is in 5th and in barren Capricorn.
Moon in 1st it seems that can have children, but in partile conjunction to Saturn, ruler of 5th.

Few or no children also.
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Unread 05-03-2012, 10:14 PM
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Re: Female - No Children

Another issue with delineating children is that even though it says no or few children, there's a very real possibility that they may seek fertility treatments to assist them, making predictions of few children very unreliable.

I give you one Nadya Suleman (known popularly in the media as Octomom).

Aquarius rising is an argument for sterility.
Sun and Saturn conjoined in the Fifth is an argument for sterility.
Fifth house cusp is Cancer which signifies fertility.
Lord of the Fifth is the Moon in Virgo, which signifies sterility.
Mercury in Gemini on the cusp of the Fifth house would also signify sterility.

I have to make a quick note about the Sign Aquarius. Lilly considers it a fertile sign because of the time of year the Sign takes place in, and because of Aquarius's symbolism of renewing and growth due to its watery nature. Earlier astrologers considered Aquarius barren because of it being the dirunal house of Saturn and being signified as a man that is unable to bear children. So, pick your poison on that one.
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Unread 05-03-2012, 10:46 PM
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Re: Female - No Children

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
Another issue with delineating children is that even though it says no or few children, there's a very real possibility that they may seek fertility treatments to assist them, making predictions of few children very unreliable.

I give you one Nadya Suleman (known popularly in the media as Octomom).

Aquarius rising is an argument for sterility.
Sun and Saturn conjoined in the Fifth is an argument for sterility.
Fifth house cusp is Cancer which signifies fertility.
Lord of the Fifth is the Moon in Virgo, which signifies sterility.
Mercury in Gemini on the cusp of the Fifth house would also signify sterility.

I have to make a quick note about the Sign Aquarius. Lilly considers it a fertile sign because of the time of year the Sign takes place in, and because of Aquarius's symbolism of renewing and growth due to its watery nature. Earlier astrologers considered Aquarius barren because of it being the dirunal house of Saturn and being signified as a man that is unable to bear children. So, pick your poison on that one.
Thank you for the example.
Well, these are exceptional examples. The intention of this thread (and all other threads I've open on this forum) is to try the methods given by the elder Astrologers on as much charts as possible. It would have been easy if Astrology was a rigid system of rules which mechanically do apply all the time. But Astrology is not that.
For me, Astrology is a tool of God's Intentions, but God is greater than its tool.
We may reconstruct the sentence however: "My opinion is that you are able to have few children. But with the help of Medicine maybe more"... or something like this. I don't wish to tell to the people that they will not have children, I always tell them that they will gonna have 'few' even when all significators points to NO.
I remember a chart of a guy who's semen was not fertile (I don't know if this is the right word) and they try 10 years now to have children with the help of the most modern medicine but they do not have still.
His chart is very hard for children.
I told them: "You will be able to have children with the help of medicine". I hope they will. But in the end it may be that my positive encouragement to prove wrong and Astrology right once again.
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Unread 05-04-2012, 12:59 AM
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Re: Female - No Children

My above example was really just a cautionary tale like your own about celebrities who are astrologically capable of having children, but choose not to.

Be sure to consider all outside options for your clients before you give them yes or no answers. I think your "maybe with medicine" is a good way to go for people who want children but seem to have sterile houses.
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Unread 05-04-2012, 02:12 AM
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Re: Female - No Children

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
My above example was really just a cautionary tale like your own about celebrities who are astrologically capable of having children, but choose not to.

Be sure to consider all outside options for your clients before you give them yes or no answers. I think your "maybe with medicine" is a good way to go for people who want children but seem to have sterile houses.
Yes, I agree. Thank you for the example once again and for the recommendation.
I do not want to make anyone sad or unhappy, this is not the purpose of Astrology and I will quote Robert Zoller:
"I do not know, only God knows".
We never know for sure, and that is why we should never give definite predictions, especially for sad or discouraging things.

Thanks again,
All the best!

Last edited by Omnisphericus; 05-04-2012 at 02:15 AM.
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