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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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Unread 04-04-2012, 01:21 PM
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Delineating Natal Chart

Here I want to open a discussion (alongside with practical examination) for delineating natal charts. I think this is the most important thing in Astrology delineation sessions because the predictions only give that which is promised in the natal chart.
I will use Alcabitius house system but will add to the delineation sporadically whole signs.
I intent to gave different examples of different themes or subject in different people's charts.
For example, we will use examination of 11th house for delineating native's friends or social life. 7th house for native's marriage and partnership. 9th house for native's religion, faith, journeys and etc..

Lets start with example.



This is a chart of a woman who is about 39 of age.
Lets call her Woman 39.
Her love life is awful. She is almolst 40 and still single. She had some relationships in the past but nothing worked out and as she said to me: "I've accepted the fact that I will maybe be single for the whole of my life".

Lets examine her 7th house.
It falls in Leo.
First we look to find a planets there, because the dominion by placement is much more immediate and powerful then dominion by rulership.
There are no planets in the 7th house.
Second, we look at the Domicile ruler of the house cusp, that is the Sun.
Third we look at the Almuten of the House, in this case Sun again because it is Domicile ruler and one of the Triplicity rulers (5+3).
Fourth, we look at all the minor dignity rulers.
Domicile: Sun
Exaltation: None
Triplicity: Sun, Jupiter, Saturn
Term: Jupiter
Decan: Saturn
Fifth, according to Abu Ali we need to consider the Arabic Parts related to the matters of the house we delineate. In this case that would be Part of Marriage. I use the Part of Marriage according to Paulus: ASC + SA - VE for Women, reversed for Man.
Her Part of Marriage falls again in 7th in Leo15, again in the terms and decan of Saturn/Jupiter.

"All the good or bad for the house emanates from its ruler", this is one of the rules for delineating.

In this case, great ruler of the 7th house is the Sun. It is in 9th with the Moon. (I think that I read in Cardanus, but I'm not sure if it was Cardanus, that the person with Moon combust would probably not be married).

We need to mention here the 4 most common afflictions cited by Bonatti (he actually gives 10, but 4 of them according to Zoller are most in use):
1. Retrogradation
2. Combustion
3. Cadent
4. Conjuntion, Square or Opposition by Malefic

So, having this in mind lets examine all the rulers of the 7th.
Sun is in 9th (cadent) making opposition to Mars in 3rd Retrograde. (Two rules of affliction are present: cadent and opposition with malefic).
Jupiter (2nd Triplicity ruler) is in tide square to the same Mars.
Saturn is cadent in 6th, Retrograde and in conjunction to the Cauda Draconis (decreasing all which conjunct).

It seems out that that Mars retrogarde, in detriment, and cadent in 3rd is the source of many troubles in her life.

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Unread 04-04-2012, 03:34 PM
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The Woman with Children Problem



This is a chart of now 60 years old woman.
She lose 7 children while pregnancy period. Her 8th child was born and is at the moment healthy 30 years old man.
I will compare this child bearing problem with the Fridaria method later on, but lets first examine the natal chart alone.

To look at her children we need to look at the 5th house.
5th house cusp is falling in Cancer.
Domicile ruler is Moon in 1st in Pisces.
Exaltation ruler is Jupiter in 2nd in partile (to the degree) opposition with Mars in 8th. (afflicted exalted ruler).
Triplicity rulers:
Mars: in 8th in Domicile
Venus: in 6th, cadent and peregrine.
Moon: in 1st in Pisces.
Term:Jupiter
Decan: Moon
Almuten: Moon (5+3+1)

Are there any planets in 5th?
Yes, there is Sun, ruler of 6th and in square to Mars in 8th. (Afflicted Sun).
Sun is disposing Cauda Draconis/Mercury retrograde/Venus Peregrine.

Her Part of Children (ASC + JU - SA for Night, reversed for day births) is in 28LIBRA, so in 8th.

From all of this we can assume that only Moon is the positive light for her having children in her chart.

Now we need to see when will something of the things 'promised' in the chart happen.

She was born in 1952.
Lets see the Fridaria table for the years in question.

JUPITER :: August 8, 1972
Jupiter/Mars - April 26, 1974
Jupiter/Sun - January 12, 1976
Jupiter/Venus - September 29, 1977
Jupiter/Mercury - June 17, 1979
Jupiter/Moon - March 4, 1981
Jupiter/Saturn - November 20, 1982

She get married in 1972 under the Jupiter/Jupiter period. Jupiter is ruler of 1st and 10th in her chart.

She conceive her first child in 1974 under Jupiter/Mars period.
We know that in her chart Jupiter and Mars are in tide opposition on the 8/2 axis. They afflict the Sun in 5th by Square. Mars is the first triplicity ruler of the 5th. This suspect troubles and death of a child (Mars afflicting the 5th from 8th).
Lets continue with the subperiods, knowing that the whole period of Jupiter is not very promising (because of the afflicted Jupiter in the natal chart).
The following subperiod is Jupiter/Sun. We know that Sun is afflicted in 5th from 8th. This again brings death of a child.
Next subperiod is Jupiter/Venus. Venus is cadent/peregrine and disposed by Sun in 5th afflicted. Venus rules 8th.
Jupiter/Mercury is the next subperiod bringing again afflicted subperiod ruler. Mercury is decreased in strength by being retrograde/cadent in 6th/conjuncting the Cauda Draconis.
She conceive her first born child in 1981 under Jupiter/Moon sub-period.
The child was born in January 1982, still under Jupiter/Moon sub-period.
Moon is angular/non afflicted by Malefic casting negative aspect rays. Moon and Jupiter are in mutual reception (Moon recept Jupiter by exaltation).
Moon rules 5th by domicile and is Almuten of the 5th.

As we saw in this example, the children were promised in this chart by the Moon, but after several disappointments and deaths of children.

Her husband died 1993 under her North Node Fridaria.
Her North Node is in 12th in Aquarius. Ruler Saturn is in 7th. Her husband died from a hearth attack leaving behind him 3 small children. In her chart he is represented by Saturn in 7th, in Exaltation, but still Malefic.
The bad for this house comes from the ruler of the house: Mercury in 6th, cadent and retrograde, in conjunction with the Cauda Draconis.
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Unread 04-05-2012, 11:55 AM
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Re: Delineating Natal Chart



Lets now look at this person's chart.
Lets first examine her profession.
We will start from examining the 1st (as Ascendant shows the Primal Motivation of the person) and 10th. Then we'll look at some Lots.

Almuten of the Ascendant is Venus in 6th in Leo which first suggest that the person is lining toward performance (Leo).
Jupiter is the domicile ruler of the 1st and 10th (also Almuten of the 10th).
Jupiter is in the 2nd Aries with the Moon. Moon is giving an emotional (the Pisces Ascendant too) note to that Jupiter's functioning.
Moon's last aspect was trine with Sun in Leo in 6th and the next aspect is conjunction with the 1st-10th ruler Jupiter.
Jupiter and Moon are making Trine with the MC which suggests that the career of this person would be of high importance for her.
From the other side Sun and Venus are also giving trine to the MC.

Pars Hyleg is showing the Life Purpose of the person and in this chart it is in 13 Taurus which would suggest that the person is probably musician (because of Venus) and probably Singer (because Taurus = throat).
Venus is domicile ruler and Almuten of the Pars Hyleg and being in Venus is leaning toward performance again. Venus is seen the Pars Hyleg by square signs which is good (the seeing!) for the pars.

The triplicity rulers are all afflicted.
Jupiter by Retrogradation (and Saturn too plus being cadent). Sun is cadent in 6th.
But the term ruler Mercury (the Divisor of the MC) is quite strong in 7th in its own domicile which would also suggest that the person would be famous and related to the public.

Part of Fortune is in the 5th (performance, entertainment?), the ruler Mars is in the 4th (angular) from Fortune which is strong placement.

Lot of Exaltation is at 25Pisces in 1st. Strong placement, angular and Jupiter being its Lord, Venus its Almuten.

To summarize, we would say that this person is high performer, probably singer and musician, and is very good at it, popular but maybe having problems with career in the later years suggested by Retrograde/Cadent Saturn in 12th participating ruler of the MC.

Remember, we are looking at the profession of this person not her whole life.
Well, this person is Whitney Houston. So, can the chart show success and profession type beforehand? I think it can.
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Unread 04-05-2012, 12:52 PM
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Re: Delineating Natal Chart

[QUOTE=Omnisphericus;377493]Here I want to open a discussion (alongside with practical examination) for delineating natal charts. I think this is the most important thing in Astrology delineation sessions because the predictions only give that which is promised in the natal chart.
I will use Alcabitius house system but will add to the delineation sporadically whole signs.
I intent to gave different examples of different themes or subject in different people's charts.
For example, we will use examination of 11th house for delineating native's friends or social life. 7th house for native's marriage and partnership. 9th house for native's religion, faith, journeys and etc..



Very correct.
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Unread 04-05-2012, 09:52 PM
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Re: Delineating Natal Chart

Thank you for posting these instructive delineations Omnisphericus - so useful as well that the natal chart software displays dignity by term and face
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Unread 04-17-2012, 02:07 AM
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Re: Delineating Natal Chart



This is a chart of a 40 years old male.
Non married, living with his parents, without job.
Having health difficulties - epilepsy and back (spine) problems.

I was thinking a while where the Epilepsy is shown in his chart.
Saturn rules Epilepsy and all the falling illnesses.
Saturn is in 5th by division but it is in 6th Sign from the Ascendant.
In Aversion to the Ascendant and in the house/sign of illnesses.

In the same time Mars is in Leo (Leo rules the spine). So, I think it is a mix of these two planets, because the spine is related to the whole balance of the body and Saturn in the 6th indicating illnesses of the Saturn's type.
There is something plus, Saturn's Antiscia is in Cancer (ruler of 6th by division).
The Saturn's contra-antiscia is Capricorn - the Ascendant (Body).

Moon's next and only aspect would be that with the Cauda Draconis (if we make the Cauda stationary). Cauda is familiar with the illnesses and all the bad stuffs.
Moon does not make any other aspect till live the sign.

This thing leads us to the other issue in his life - marriage.
For a men's chart, as Hermes says, Moon (and Venus) is significator of marriage (he says because Men are hot in temper they need the contrabalance from cold and wet planets, while women are generally passive and cold by nature they need the contrabalance of Sun and Mars).
The number of marriages is often signified by the amount of aspects the Moon makes before leaves the sign. This is not general rule but I have seen many charts with this 'rule' applied.
In this chart Moon does not make aspect to any planet.
She makes application to the Cauda Draconis on the 7th house cusp - another indication of ill events regarding partners and spouse.
Yet another indication of no-marriage is that the Moon does not see the Sun (it is in aversion to it).
The next bad affliction to the marriage thing are the triplicity rulers of Venus:
Venus it self (cadent)
Mars - though angular it is in 8th by signs and under the Sun's beams (it is invisible).
Moon - although in domicile it is cadent and making no aspects as we said earlier.

Triplicity rulers of the Part of Marriage in 9Aq:
Saturn in the 6th sign.
Mercury in the 8th sign combusted and retrograde, peregrine (heavily afflicted in all possible ways)
Jupiter in the 12th sign retrograde in Sign opposition to Saturn.

Last edited by Omnisphericus; 04-17-2012 at 03:47 AM.
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Unread 04-19-2012, 04:58 AM
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Looking for Eminence



This is a chart of a very eminent and well known person in his profession.
I was asked not to reveal the person so I will keep the promise I made of not doing so.

Lets look for the promise in this chart regarded for eminence and success.

Fortuna in 4th sign (angular) - its great.
Ruler of the Fortuna is in the 11th from Fortuna (Jupiter).
Benefic (Venus) is with the Fortuna.
All these 3 testimonies are great so far.

Lot of Spirit in the 10th sign in 1Gemini with the ruler Mercury in the 5th from the Spirit and the 11th (place of acquisitions according to Valens) from Fortuna.
Lot of Exaltation in Cancer - the 11th sign from the Ascendant with the ruler Moon in its own domicile.

2 of the 3 triplicity rulers of the Light of the Chart (Moon) are in very good places: Moon in 11th and Venus in 4th.
Mars being the first ruler is cadent, showing the first third of life most difficult regarding the 3 rulers.

Pars Hyleg is in 7Sag, showing the Life purpose. The archer is known for its seeking for wisdom. This person is eminent in the scientific fields.
Another interesting point is that the Part of Understanding and wisdom is in 3 Virgo, so in the first Zodion.
Mercury is ruler of the Spirit in 10th and of the Part of Understanding and Wisdom in 1st. Mercury is with Jupiter (the ruler of the Fortuna).
And in fact, the Light of the Chart is applying to that Mercury in 2nd showing that the income (money, wealth) in this persons life would come from Science, Understanding and Wisdom, using words/letters/calculation and all the sorts communication with words and language (Mercury).
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Unread 04-20-2012, 09:47 AM
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Some Tips on Delineating

The type of Delineation I'm giving here is a mix of medieval techniques with those of the Hellenistic authors.
Robert Zoller played great role in my traditional astrology education and this is obvious for those who are familiar with his work.
I need to mention that even though Zoller was initially very fond on Arabia authors, his basic delineation techniques are taken from the early reneissance French astrologer Morin. Zoller studied with Zoltan Mason who introduced Morin and his basic natal delineation to Zoller. Zoltan was also one of the first translators of Morin.

Here are some tips for delineating the chart in this manner.

1. The good or bad signified by a house emanates from the ruler of the house.
This is the basic rule. The ruler of the house is giver of the material of the house.

Zoller gives the example of his own chart where he has Combusted Mercury in 11th, ruler of 4th. He comments that this kind of placement brings adversity to ones home and dwellings.

2. Benefit in one area of life can be produced by adversity, or even conflict, in another.

Again Zoller gives example from his own chart.
Jupiter in 9th in Scorpio disposited from Mars in 11th: Wisdom coming from conflicts.

3. The delineation tells you the what. The
predictive techniques tell you the when.


4. The Elemental Quality of the Sign of the Ascendant is showing the type of Primary Motivation of the native.
Fire goes for freedom of action and power.
Air goes for freedom of expression and movement.
The Water signs need emotional security
Earth signs need physical security.

The person with masculine Ascendant (or majority of planets in masculine signs) speaks in active terms: "I did this to that person".
The person with feminine sign on Ascendant or majority planets in feminine signs, speaks in passive terms: "This happened to me".

The Feminine signs seek advice because they need second hand in their decisions, in fact they want someone else to make the decision for them.
Masculine signs seek advice because they have many options so they are not sure which option is better.

Cardinal signs are most active. Cardinal water and earth (Cancer and Capricorn) are working great amount of actions but in circumstances and environment structured already by someone else.
Libra and Aries (Cardinal masculine) are working great in any kind of circumstances.

Fixed signs are centripetal, they need center. They are very successful in Acquisations.
Taurus hoards money.
Leo hoards glory and honor.
Scorpio hoards the hidden things, hidden motivations of other people, seek energy and vitality.
Aquarius hoards Knowledge.

Mutable signs vacillate between the two: cardinal and fixed.

5. Examine the planets which most closely aspects the Ascendant. These planets add to the whole Primary Motivation thing.

Planets aspecting the Ascendant represent powers the native can use in the world.

The aspecting planet's local determination will be added to the Primary
Motivation.
(Venus in 5th will add love for pleasure and entertainment to the native's Primary Motivation).

The aspect between the aspecting planet and the Ascendant tells you how the being of the planet and its local determination are linked.

6. The Ruler of the Ascendant by its house position tells you where (what area of life) the native will seek to realize his/her Primary Motivation.

Look also at all 5 dignity rulers in the place of the ASC. The Almuten and Exalted ruler are lamost as significant as the domicile ruler (sometimes even more).

The Ruler of the Ascendant (as well as the other rulers) by its nature and zodiacal state shows the methods the native will use and the success or failure of the drive.

This is great quote by Zoller:
Quote:
"This little trick is of great practical value. By means of it, we may understand what the native wants. All other wants and desires are negotiable, but not the Primary Motivation. If you interfere with another person's ability to realize their Primary Motivation, they are gone."
Lets assume that a person has Cancer on the Ascendant,
The primary motivation of this person is the Need for Emotional Security.
The ruler/s of the Ascendant and their zodiacal and local state will determine How would this be achieved.

Lets assume Moon on IC in Libra Peregrine.
Jupiter in 6th (but 7th sign!) in Capricorn.
Venus in Sag in 6th - Peregrine.
Mars in Scorpio in 4th (but 5th sign!)
Saturn (term ruler) is in 5th Scorpio Peregrine.

We can see that Moon is strong by accident (being on angle), so we can judge first from there.
The need for Emotional Security this person would seek in the home, in the place of the father. The father would be the means through which this person would try to achieve the Emotional Security.
Jupiter - the exalted ruler is weak by being cadent, Venus too. They can't produce much in giving the emotional security this person seeks.
Jupiter by universal means suggest that the native would seek wisdom, religion (and the person actually did!) but by being cadent and in fall, it can't productively give what it promise.
Mars is in 4/5th and is strong by zodiacal state, but is out of sect malefic.
It would try to win competitions, but also with Saturn in 5th will give great deal of creativity. Mars rules the 10th - creativity and looking for career, would also give some amount of emotional security for this person. But by being square with Sun in 7th it means that it will have opposition from authorities and other people in general.

The primary motivation is great deal of what we unconsciously and often consciously seek for. Once that motivation is broken or someone interrupt it, we seek to fix that in the every possible way we can do that.

I will continue with the tips in my next post.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 10:31 AM
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Tips for Delineating part 2

7. Position is stronger than rulership.

Aries on 5th house cusp. Jupiter in Aries.
Juptier is having much more important for the issues of the house then the ruler Mars.

8. The planet in detriment can not produce effectively what it promise.


9.The house represents the beginning of a matter, the ruler of the house,
represents the development of the matter, a kind of middle
point, and the final dispositor, i.e. the planet that rules the sign in which
the ruler is placed represents the end of the matter.


10. The planet which is closest to cusp is the most important in the house and dominates the affairs of the house, because of the rule that position is stronger than rulership, unless the ruler of the house is also in the house.

11. Planets can do 3 things. They can produce something,
they can deny something, or they can destroy something once it has been
produced.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 11:12 AM
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Abu Ali's method for Delineation

1. See ifthere are any planets in the house. Note if they are benef*
ics or malefics. Note which is closer to the cusp of the house.

2. See what sign is on the cusp of the house. Note the triplicity
of the sign, the degree of the cusp and the rulers of the sign
(especially the rulers by sign, exaltation, and triplicity).

3. See what planet is the ruler by sign. Note what house it is
in. It will I ink the affairs of the house it is in to the affairs of
the house you are judging. Note the nature of the ruler of the
house. Its nature will tell you how the affairs of the house will
be realized.

If the ruler is in good zodiacal state and in good house (angular/succedent) the matters symbolized by the house will be realized.
If it is in good zodiacal state, but weak by house placement, there will be problems with realizing the things signified by the house.
If it is in bad zodiacal and house placement as well (cadent for example), the matters will not be realized by any means.
But still, you can look to the triplicity ruler or the Almuten, or the exaltation ruler, termin ruler and etc.. (look at 4).

4. Look at the Almuten of the house. Look also to the other 5 dignity rulers. Face is weakest of this and I do not use it. The termin ruler also I use very rarely.

If the ruler by sign cannot realize the
affairs of a house, perhapsthe Almuten or one of the otherrul*
ers can.

5. Examine the Arabic Part associated with matter at hand.

For example, for judging the first house calculate Pars Vitae. For the life's purpose Pars Hyleg. For 2nd house - Pars Substance and Fortune. For 7th - the Part of Marriage and etc..

6. See also the significator of the thing the house is associated
with. You will want to see the natural significator, the acci*dental significator and, once you have learned of them, the specific significator.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 12:21 PM
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Bonatti's use of the 3 Triplicity rulers of each house

In all matters Bonatti gives each triplicity ruler 1/3 of the life of the native.
The 1st ruler signifies the 1/3, the second 2/3 and the third participating ruler the 3/3 of life.
The life span varies in each individual and each author is assuming different numbers in calculating this technique.
Some says 3 x 30 = 90
Some say 3 x 25 = 90 and etc.
I think it is better to judge according to the preceded delineation of the longevity of the native.

On the matters of 1st house.
Bonatti says that the first ruler belongs to the Life of the native, his pleasures and things in which he delights.
What he likes and what he hates and what bappens
to him, whether good or evil at the beginning of life, namely in the first
third part of his life.


The second lord of the triplicity signifies the life,
robustness, power and strength and what happens to him in the second part
of his life.


The third lord ofthe triplicity signifies that which happens, that
which the first and second lord signified, but also the end of life, whatever happens to him in the last third of his life."


2nd house

From this triplicity Lords you judge the native's substance, the significator of the acquisition of the native.
The house position of the ruler in question shows the source of the native's wealth (in that third of life).

3rd house


The first ruler represents younger brothers.
The second the middle ones.
The third, the older brothers.
This house signifies all blood relatives and kin, or kin younger than the native and etc. Neighbours and even fellow citizens both masters or slaves, and mothers or wives, and the rich or the poor.

4th - the house of Fathers (according to Bonatti):

The first Triplicity Lord signifies the Father.
The 2nd cities and land
The 3rd - end of things and prisons.

"For if the first lord of the 4th
is in good condition and aspects the lord
of the Ascendant by a good aspect, that is if it is in good condition and aspect, namely by a trine or a sextile or the Ascendant lord aspectshim, there will be good for the native required from the father and for the
father from him, or for the grandfather or the great grandfather and for
the mother-in-law, and for aU grand parents. Although, the mother-in-law is signified by accident by the 4th house."


"If indeed the second ruler of the triplicity of the 4th house is in good
condition, good things come to the native from houses and land and from
inheritances, he will inherit from the aforesaid persons."


"If the third ruler is in good condition, there will be benefit for him from
prisons and prisoners and it sometimes happens to guards of captives and
the like and from the ends of things, as sometimes happens for those
finishing lawsuits or war, or in mediating between some men at a market,
as frequently happens with the sellers of horses, or of other things in
which the sale requires a go-between."

"If the aforesaid significators are weak, unfortunate or in bad condition,
it will go evilly for him in the aforementioned things. You want to
consider in what part of life this happens to him because the first third
of life signified by the first ruler of the triplicity, the second third by the
second ruler of the triplicity, and the third third by the third ruler of the
triplicity."


5th house

The first ruler signifies children.
The second, sensual delights.
The third, legates,
that is people sent on a diplomatic mission of legate.

the life of children is taken more
from the first lord of the triplicity than that of the second or third."


6th house


The first lord represents infirmities and convalescences from those infirmities and other evil things.
The 2nd lord, signifies servants.
3rd lord represents the things we may find from them, usefulness and etc..
Also represents beasts and herd animals, and all quadrupeds, their strength, number and whether he holds
on to them or loses them, that he being the native, and it is the significator of prison and detention whence it ought to be seen how the lord of any nativity... regarding the lord of the 6th, namely whether it is joined to it by
trine or sextile aspect or bodily with mutual and perfect reception."


"If it is so the native or querent will have fortune in all of these things
which are signified by the 6th house, but if they should aspect eachother by the aforesaid aspects without a reception there would not be a great fortune for him from these things, although there may be some kind of benefit for him from them, but if they aspect each other by square or opposition or without reception it will be evil for him in all of and from all of the aforesaid, but if it is with reception evil will be less, but if the lord of the 1st should receive the lord of the 6th
and the lord of the 6th does not receive him it will be better for the slaves on account of him than for him on account of them."


"Indeed they will be unfaithful to him and deceitful, but if the lord of the 6th
should receive the lord of the 1 and the lord ofthe 1
does not receive the
lord of the 6th it will be better for him on account of them than for them on account of him. Indeed he does not like them nor does he treat them well though they benefit him and though they stand by him as faithful servants and fully transact all his businesses."


7th house


"The first lord ofthe triplicity of the 7th represents or signifies women, the second contentions or litigations, and the 3rd associations."

8th house

"The first lord of the triplicity of the house of death signifies death, the
second ancient things and the third is everything which is inherited from
the dead to wit both from those who are not related and those who are
related which the heirs ought to possess after the death of these."

9th house

"The first lord of the triplicity of the 9th
signifies journeys or what happens to the native or querent on long journeys, the second signifies faith, religion and the strength and manner, the third signifies wisdom, dreams and the science of the stars, and the truth of these things, auguries and the
work in these matters ... "

10th house

"The first ruler of the triplicity of the kingly house rules work exaltations
and the elevation to a higher seat of authority and to the highest dwelling,
the second lord signifies the voice of command and the audacity in the
same, and in the third signifies the stability and durability."

11th house:

The first lord of the triplicity of the house of faith signifies faith, but the
second ruler signifies friends, the third signifies the utility or the success
of these things.

12th house

"The first lord of the triplicity of the 12th
house signifies enemies, the second lord signifies labours, the third signifies beasts and flocks and indeed others say that all the houses of the lords of the triplicities of the 12th
house and its lord, that is the planet that rules the sign signifies
prisons and prison"

Last edited by Omnisphericus; 04-20-2012 at 12:26 PM.
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Unread 04-21-2012, 07:18 AM
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Re: Bonatti's use of the 3 Triplicity rulers of each house

These triplicity lord allocations by Bonatti were first populaized several centuries earlier (during the Islamic transitional era) by Alchabitius; the "Ankara horary" (actually Ottoman astrology) tradition, used these allocations in an alternative horary methodology, for determining quesited signifcators; also in this method, the relevant triplicty lord of the 1st house was used to determine the querent significator, based on the age of the querent (1st lord, young querent, 2nd lord, middle aged querent, 3rd lord, older/aged querent)...


PS: I have just voted for a 5 star rating of this thread: this thread is an excellent practical guide to high-quality chart delineation using the Traditionalist astrological model.

Last edited by dr. farr; 04-21-2012 at 07:25 AM.
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Unread 04-22-2012, 09:51 PM
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Re: Bonatti's use of the 3 Triplicity rulers of each house

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post


PS: I have just voted for a 5 star rating of this thread: this thread is an excellent practical guide to high-quality chart delineation using the Traditionalist astrological model.

Followed the way
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Unread 04-27-2012, 04:05 PM
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Gianni Agnelli

In my next post I will try to give astrological delineation of the person by name Gianni Agnelli.
Gianni Agnelli is Italian industrialist, the head of Fiat since 1966.
Astro dot com gives AA accuracy of his birth details and also there is chronological list of his life events.
We will try to delineate them all.

He died in the morning in January 24 2003.

Here is the list of Events given by astro data bank:
Events

Family trauma 15 July 1935 (father died in a plane accident)

Social : Joined group 2 July 1941 (Italian Army Service, two years)

Health : Accident (Non-fatal) September 1943 (car accident, broke ankle)

Death of Mother November 1945

Death of Significant person December 1945 (Grandfather Giovanni died)

Health : Accident (Non-fatal) August 1952 (car accident, broke jaw, smashed leg)

Relationship : Marriage November 1953 (Princess Marella Caraciolo di Castagneto)

Family : Change in family responsibilities 9 June 1954 (Son Edoardo born)

Family : Change in family responsibilities 26 October 1955 (Daughter Margharita born)

Death of Sibling 1965 (Brother Giorgio died at 35)

Work : Gain social status 1966 (Head of Fiat)

Health : Medical procedure 1980 (Triple by-pass surgery)

Family trauma 1990 (Son Edoardo arrested for heroin)

Work : Retired 1996 (Retired from Fiat, brother Umberto takes over)

Death by Disease 24 January 2003 (died at age 81, prostate cancer)
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Unread 04-27-2012, 04:26 PM
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Gianni Agnelli - the Chart and Abu Alli's Considerations



Abu Ali gives interesting considerations about the planets in houses, which can be very good introduction to this analysis.

If we start with the first planet from the Ascendant, we would see that Mercury Retrograde is 5 degrees near the 3rd house cusp so we would count it as in 3rd house but will give the delineation for the 2nd house too.

We have Mercury and Sun in 3rd house.
Moon, Mars, Cauda Draconis and Venus in 4th (remember that he had a lot of inheritance).
Jupiter R and Saturn R in 9th.
Caput Draconis in 10th.

Mercury in 2nd house:
"Signifies wealth and honors from the kings"

Mercury in third house:
"Indicates inclinations and readiness for learning about all the things. Friends and siblings will be of great strength".

Sun in 3rd:
"Signifies some official duty for the King; journeys/travels"

Moon in 4th:
"Is indicator of sadness but of good end also"

Mars in 4th:
"Signifies murders, blood and sad end".

Venus in 4th:
"Indicates praises of the son, but who in the beginning will be sad because of his mother".

Saturn in 9th:
"indicates hard and awful dreams, weakness and loosing of the one's faith; diseases, troubles and loses on the long journeys"

Jupiter in 9th:
"Is showing joy on the long journeys, strong faith, true dreams and their interpretation"

Dragon's Head in 10th:
"Indicates good fortune to the native, increase in his professional skills.
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Unread 04-27-2012, 04:41 PM
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Re: Gianni Agnelli - the Chart and Abu Alli's Considerations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
Moon in 4th:
"Is indicator of sadness but of good end also"

Mars in 4th:
"Signifies murders, blood and sad end".
But if Moon in 4th is a "good end" how do we square that with the "blood and sad end" implied by Mars in 4th?.... I suppose a "good end" could somehow also be a "sad end" - but if Mars in 4th signifies murders then how can Moon in 4th show this as a "good end also"? Just a curious thought Omnisphericus!
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Unread 04-27-2012, 04:58 PM
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Re: Gianni Agnelli - the Chart and Abu Alli's Considerations

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
But if Moon in 4th is a "good end" how do we square that with the "blood and sad end" implied by Mars in 4th?.... I suppose a "good end" could somehow also be a "sad end" - but if Mars in 4th signifies murders then how can Moon in 4th show this as a "good end also"? Just a curious thought Omnisphericus!
Abu Ali's delineations are very wide considering, not applying the state of the planets, their rulership and etc.
It is a mixed bag, having Mars and Moon in 4th I suppose. In the end of this delineation we will see what this means, I hope we can reveal the truths behind these placements.
I intend to do more thorough analyse in my next posts.
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Unread 04-27-2012, 05:11 PM
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Re: Gianni Agnelli - the Chart and Abu Alli's Considerations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
Abu Ali's delineations are very wide considering, not applying the state of the planets, their rulership and etc.
It is a mixed bag, having Mars and Moon in 4th I suppose. In the end of this delineation we will see what this means, I hope we can reveal the truths behind these placements.
I intend to do more thorough analyse in my next posts.
I understand the idea of 'a mixed bag' Omnisphericus because obviously the rather wide basic delineation of Abu Ali has not yet taken into account rulership, dignity, placement and condition of ruler and so on and so forth and of course all these other considerations not unsurprisingly shall tend to modify the basic 'story line' - thanks
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Unread 04-27-2012, 05:26 PM
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Delineating the chart of Gianni Agnelli

At fist glance we see bunch of planets in the 4th house.
Out attention is immediately drawn there.

The 4th house indicates natives parents (especially the Father), family property, and the domestic scene.
By being angular this house also stends for Professional standing and professional abilities.

Ruler of 4th (Mars) in 4th, shows that the Native's father is strong and wealthy in possessions.
Ruler of 10th in 4th (Venus) is showing that the parents are responsible for his advantage.
Co-ruler of 7th (Moon) - the spouse and business partners will benefit from his inheritance.

Venus - the ruler of 5th in 4th = the children would also benefit from the inheritance.
Venus is in 12th from 5th = children use drugs and 'hidden things', prisons and etc..

Mercury being Retrograde in 3rd shows bad things coming by the siblings and kin. (His brother died young, at age of 35). Ruler of 8th (Sun) in 3rd.
Ruler of 6th in 3rd shows that the kin and siblings are strike by illnesses.

Ruler of 1st (Jupiter) in 9th is indicating Success of the Native on travels, and gains profit (Saturn ruler of 2nd in 9th).

Ruler of 10th in 4th - Native gains honor.

By whom native gains Acquisitions? By parents and inheritance (Lord of 11th in 4th).

Last edited by Omnisphericus; 04-27-2012 at 06:59 PM.
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Unread 04-27-2012, 07:34 PM
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Gianni Agnelli - Father's death

In the events section we can see that the first event given occurred in 1935 when his father died.
This is the Saturn/Sun Firdaria period.
Saturn is significator of the Father in a night chart, Sun is Significator of Father in a day chart. Here, Sun being Almuten of 4th is really a significator of Father.
Saturn and Sun are in opposition in natal chart.
His father died in a plane accident. The axis 3/9 is related to Journeys, especially Journeys across Water (9th).
Profected Ascebdabt was at Aquarius, i.e. the 2nd natal house.
Lord of the year is Saturn.
So, this could be the year when the promised in the natal chart regarding the Father would be realized (having in mind that it is the period when Saturn rules the Firdaria, the sub ruler is Sun, and Saturn is Lord of the Profected Year).
What is promised in the natal chart?
Saturn - significator of the Father in 9th (Journeys over the Sea), is in opposition to the Sun ruler of 8th in 3rd: death of the father on journey.
In what month will this happen?

Well, the accident happened on 15 July.
This correspondence with the beginning of the 5th month after the birthday.
1. Aquarius - From 12th March to 12 April
2. Aries (Pisces is intercepted) = From 12 April to 12 May
3. Taurus - From 12 May to 12 June
4. Gemini - From 12 June to 12 July
5. Cancer - From 12th July to 12 August

This happened in the month when the 5th profected house came to rule the month. This is Cancer and Lord of the Month is Moon.
Cancer in natal is intercepted between 7th and 8th.
In natal chart Moon is in 4th.

Solar Return Ascendant is in Cancer. Lord of the Return - Moon is in 12th in the Return chart.
Saturn is in elevation near the MC.
Lord of 4th in the Return is Mercury in the 9th house but in the 8th Sign.
Saturn rules the 8th in the Return.

Last edited by Omnisphericus; 04-27-2012 at 07:41 PM.
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Unread 04-27-2012, 07:59 PM
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Gianni Agnelli - Death of the Mother

In November 1945 his Mother died in a car accident.

Firdaria period is Jupiter/Sun.
So again the Sun in 3rd and ruler of 8th (and Almuten of 4th!) is on the field.

I assume that the Sun is significator of both parents because it is Almuten of the 4th.
Because Gianni at the moment was 24 years old his profected Ascendant was the same as at birth: in Sagittarius. So the natal promise is reinforced in those years (12/24/36 and etc..).

Again we have the 3/9 axis accentuated: short/long journeys/cars and etc.
November falls in the 9th natal house, and there we have Jupiter and Saturn.
You see how precise Astrology can be?

Solar Return Ascendant falls in Scorpio in natal 10th house (the House of Mother).
Ruler Mars is on IC with the Moon exactly on IC (Moon being natural significator of Mothers). IC is the place of Death and Ends as the Hellenistic Astrologers saw it.

In the same year his Grandfather died. Ruler of Solar Return's 4th - Saturn in the 8th of SR.

Last edited by Omnisphericus; 04-27-2012 at 08:02 PM.
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Unread 04-27-2012, 09:50 PM
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Gianni Agnelli - Car Accident

Health : Accident (Non-fatal) August 1952 (car accident, broke jaw, smashed leg)

Remember the Abu Ali's description for Saturn in 9th?
Saturn in 9th:
"indicates hard and awful dreams, weakness and loosing of the one's faith; diseases, troubles and loses on the long journeys"

This is Jupiter/Saturn Firdaria
Saturn is in 9th co-ruling the 1st, and ruling the 2nd.

In 1952 Profected Ascendant is in Cancer, that is the Intercepted sign on 7th house cusp.

Solar Return Ascendant is in Leo, natal 8th house.
Sun is in 8th Solar Return house falling in 3rd natal.
In august Solar Return progressed Month is in 6th house Capricorn, the ruler Saturn is in SR 3rd Retrograde, making opposition to Jupiter ruler of SR 8th.
Both, Jupiter and saturn are Firdaria rulers of the period.
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Unread 04-27-2012, 09:55 PM
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Re: Delineating Natal Chart

As we can see in the analysis of the events above, the promised in the natal chart was distributed in the years in Life according to the Firdaria/Profection and Solar Returns rulerships of the periods.
Jupiter/Saturn conjunction (both Retrograde) in 9th in opposition to the Sun in 3rd ruler of 8th, was a significator of the 'promised' troubles in the natal chart regarding the journeys, parents death and etc.
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Unread 04-27-2012, 10:19 PM
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Gianni Agnelli - Marriage

Relationship : Marriage November 1953 (Princess Marella Caraciolo di Castagneto)

In 1953 Gianni is 32 years old.

Lets find the Significator of Marriage.

1. 7th house cusp at 24 Gemini
Mercury 5, 3
Saturn 3
Jupiter 3
Mars 2
Sun 1

2. Ruler of 7th, Mercury in 4 Pisces,
Jupiter 5
Venus, 4, 3, 2
Mars 3
Moon 3
Saturn 1

3. Planets in 7th = None

4. Moon at 17 Aries
Mars 3
Sun 4, 3, 1
Jupiter 3
Saturn 3
Mercury 2

5. Venus at 3Taurus
Venus 5, 3, 2
Moon 4, 3
Mars 3
Mercury 1

6. Part of Marriage of Men at 5 Leo
Sun 5, 3
Jupiter 3, 2
Saturn 3, 1

Total:
Mercury 11
Saturn 11
Jupiter 16
Mars 11
Sun 17
Venus 19

Venus is significator of Marriage.
Venus is Succedent and in Domicile, in the house of good luck, not harmed by bad aspect, in oriental quarter. She rules the 10th, we can say that this man will take powerful woman with high status.
Moon is making aspect with only one planet in the sign in which she is (applying aspect). There will be one marriage only. Mars receives the Moon.

In 1953 Venus came on the natal Ascendant by Profection.
The Marriage was in November, counting 9 months (From March to November) we come to the sign of Leo and the Profected Ascendant (this corresponds with the Part of Marriage which falls in Leo).

Solar Return Ascendant falls in natal 10th house.
Venus, the Significator of Marriage (and SR Ruler) falls in SR 7th or natal 4th.
SR 9th house falls in natal 7th, counting 9 months from Ascendant Libra to the 9th Gemini we come to November and the month of the wedding.

So what we've done here?
We've progressed the SR Ascendant to the Natal DC (Which falls in SR 9th house).

1953 is Mars/Mars Firdaria.
Mars is on IC and ruler of IC and 11th in natal. Co-ruler of 1st by Exaltation.
Moon co-ruler of 7th is applying conjunction to Mars in natal.
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Unread 04-27-2012, 10:31 PM
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Gianni Agnelli - Death of the Brother

Death of Sibling 1965 (Brother Giorgio died at 35).

As we saw in delineating the natal chart of Gianni Agnelli, the young death of the brother was signified.
Ruler of 8th in 3rd.

1965 is beginning of Sun/Sun Firdaria.
Sun in natal chart in 3rd, ruler of 8th, significations (Death of Brother). Mercury in 3rd also, is natural significator of Young Man.

Profected Ascendant in 1965 falls in Leo (8th house), and ruler is the Sun.
You see the connection?
The last time when Leo was Ascendant the marriage happened, but now death of brother. Firdaria rulership shows the clue of the happenings.

In SR Virgo Rising, Mercury in 7th house but 8th sign.
Mars, ruler of 3rd in SR and of 8th is in 12th and Retrograde.
Sun is exactly on DC.

You see the connection in the Solar Return chart?
Mars rules the 3rd - Brothers.
It rules also the 8th - Death.
It is in the house of Bad Spirit = 12th and in opposition to the Natal Sun in 3rd.

Or to put it in this way:
Loss (12) of Brother (3rd) by Death (8).

Last edited by Omnisphericus; 04-27-2012 at 10:36 PM.
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