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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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Unread 01-20-2012, 01:04 AM
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Can planets in Fall or Detriment be peregrine?

Yes, another newbie question. But, it seems to me that when we are talking about dignity and peregrine status, a planet either has dignity or it doesn't (perigrine.) Isn't being in fall or being in detriment a type of dignity? Dignity = honor. Planets in domicile or in exaltation are dignified in a positive manner. Wouldn't planets in fall or detriment also be "dignified" just in a negative manner?

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Unread 01-20-2012, 01:18 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be perigrine?

i think they switch it and call the planets in fall and detriment essential debility..
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Unread 01-20-2012, 01:21 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be perigrine?

Is it okay if I just post you to Altair astrology?

http://altairastrology.wordpress.com...ing-perigrine/
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Unread 01-20-2012, 03:16 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be peregrine?

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Is it okay if I just post you to Altair astrology?

http://altairastrology.wordpress.com...ing-perigrine/
Thanks Moog, it's what I thought. I am reading a new astro book, and thought today that the author said a specific planet in it's fall was also peregrine (which is why this stuck in my head) but can't at the moment find the exact reference. I'll look at it again. Maybe I misunderstood...
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Unread 01-20-2012, 04:20 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be perigrine?

The Altair Astrology article is actually incorrect in this. Peregrine planets can indeed be in the signs of their Detriment and Fall. The exact example that William Lilly uses in defining this term is with Saturn in Aries (his Fall).

Debility stacks the same way dignity does.
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Unread 01-20-2012, 04:33 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be peregrine?

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Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
The Altair Astrology article is actually incorrect in this. Peregrine planets can indeed be in the signs of their Detriment and Fall. The exact example that William Lilly uses in defining this term is with Saturn in Aries (his Fall).

Debility stacks the same way dignity does.
Can you point me to the Lilly example? I have a hard copy of CA...is it there? I'm not questioning what you say, I just want to read it. Also, if a debilitated planet can be peregrine, how come a dignified planet can't? Again, this is not arguement, it's curiosity...
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Unread 01-20-2012, 04:35 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be peregrine?

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Can you point me to the Lilly example? I have a hard copy of CA...is it there? I'm not questioning what you say, I just want to read it. Also, if a debilitated planet can be perigrine, how come a dignified planet can't? Again, this is not argument, it's curiosity...
Because a peregrine planet has no dignity in any of its places

QUOTE
"A Planet is then said to be Peregrine, when he is in the degrees of any Sign wherein he hath no essential dignity, As Saturn in the tenth degree of Aries, that Sign being not his House, Exaltation, or of his Triplicity, or he having in that degree neither Term or Face, he is then said to be Peregrine; had he been in 27, 28, &c. of Aries, he could not be termed Peregrine, because then he is in his own Term
". (Lilly, CA, p.112)
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Unread 01-20-2012, 04:41 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be perigrine?

Quote:
Can you point me to the Lilly example? I have a hard copy of CA...is it there?
Well, I hope it's the same page number, but in my copy it's pg 112.

Quote:
Also, if a debilitated planet can be perigrine, how come a dignified planet can't?
Yeah, what JupiterAsc said. The definition of a peregrine planet is a planet without dignity. Planets can be in dignity and debilitity simulatenously, but when they are completely without dignity then they're peregrine and further debilitated.
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Unread 01-20-2012, 04:46 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be perigrine?

Anciently, peregrine meant no dignity AND no detriment; around the time of Guido Bonatti this doctrine changed to being simply, no dignity: hence the later motto that "debility/detriment cannot save from peregrine". So the doctrine of being "isolated", "unconnected" (not connected by dignity NOR by debility), ie, "pergerine" (an unconnected wanderer) changed (about 800 or so years ago) into simply not having any dignity in its place.

(Personal note: while I can go (somewhat) with the original concept of "peregrine", I consider the concept as expressed/defined over the past 800 years, to be invalid, and (as I have posted in other threads here on AW), I reject the doctrine in practice)
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Unread 01-20-2012, 04:50 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be peregrine?

Thanks guys and gals. It's page 112 in my copy too. Guess I should read more and question less...
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Unread 01-20-2012, 04:57 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be peregrine?

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Anciently, peregrine meant no dignity AND no detriment; around the time of Guido Bonatti this doctrine changed to being simply, no dignity: hence the later motto that "debility/detriment cannot save from peregrine". So the doctrine of being "isolated", "unconnected" (not connected by dignity NOR by debility), ie, "pergerine" (an unconnected wanderer) changed (about 800 or so years ago) into simply not having any dignity in its place.

(Personal note: while I can go (somewhat) with the original concept of "peregrine", I consider the concept as expressed/defined over the past 800 years, to be invalid, and (as I have posted in other threads here on AW), I reject the doctrine in practice)
Ah, so dr. farr, while you personally don't look at peregrine status (I have seen some of your other posts about this) would you agree that it makes no sense that a planet in fall or deriment could also be peregrine? I see this as being a dignity of sorts, and so therefore not peregrine...but, yup, noob here, lol.
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Unread 01-20-2012, 04:59 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be peregrine?

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Anciently, peregrine meant no dignity AND no detriment; around the time of Guido Bonatti this doctrine changed to being simply, no dignity: hence the later motto that "debility/detriment cannot save from peregrine". So the doctrine of being "isolated", "unconnected" (not connected by dignity NOR by debility), ie, "pergerine" (an unconnected wanderer) changed (about 800 or so years ago) into simply not having any dignity in its place.

(Personal note: while I can go (somewhat) with the original concept of "peregrine", I consider the concept as expressed/defined over the past 800 years, to be invalid, and (as I have posted in other threads here on AW), I reject the doctrine in practice)
Indeed I recall the discussion. One of the examples being Sun at 24 degrees Libra (Tropical) although Peregrine and in Fall, nevertheless the Sun being conjunct the benefic fixed star Spica the apparently parlous condition of that celestial body is entirely ameliorated.

Of course members such as for example, Monk, may have certain reservations concerning fixed stars that are not directly on the path of the ecliptic and therefore prefer parans.
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Unread 01-20-2012, 05:04 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be perigrine?

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Anciently, peregrine meant no dignity AND no detriment; around the time of Guido Bonatti this doctrine changed to being simply, no dignity: hence the later motto that "debility/detriment cannot save from peregrine".
Can I get a source on this? Since my usual sources for thing are Lilly (Renaissance) and Bonatii (Mideval), and Ptolemy doesn't appear to make any mention of it at first glance, I seem to be unable to look into this further given my current authorities. I am severly lacking in the Muslim authors.
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Unread 01-20-2012, 05:07 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be perigrine?

Right-I am not trying to be controversial (flaming) in this, I am just expressing my OWN understanding of the philosophy behind the concept of peregrine (ie, unconnected) and the original use of the concept, and then the change (so long ago) and adoption of a now-doctrinal new (relatively new-800 years!) understanding and application of that concept.

Certainly the "official doctrine" is no dignity=peregrine, ie, that debility/detriment does not save from the peregrine state; and for all students of Traditionalist astrological practice, this is what you should accept as the Traditional teaching regarding this matter.
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Unread 01-20-2012, 05:22 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be peregrine?

Deborah Houlding states: "Peregrine, a Latin word meaning 'alien' or 'foreigner' derived from 'pereger' = beyond the borders, 'ager' = land, i.e., 'beyond one's own land' ...In old English, to 'peregrinate' means to wander far from home.

In symbolic terms, a peregrine planet describes a drifter - someone with no title or stake in his or her environment. Though it's helpful to think in terms of property, the comparison lends itself to the general tenor of the chart. Property owners tend to view drifters with suspicion, and distrust their lack of stability. Peregrine planets share this dubious reputation so that in questions of theft a peregrine planet in an angle or the 2nd house is a classic indication of the significator of the thief. (CA. p.112)

Under normal circumstances a peregrine planet lacks the necessary strength to convey lasting benefit. Its position of weakness can be alleviated, however, if it is strongly dignified accidentally or if it forms a mutual reception with a stronger planet"

IMO a planet that is direct, swift in motion, angular, free from combustion, conjunct a beneficial fixed star such as Spica (as previously mentioned with the example of Peregrine Sun at 24 degrees Libra) or in classical aspect to Jupiter or Venus would indicate that the planet is accidentally dignified


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Unread 01-20-2012, 06:10 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be perigrine?

Ptolemy makes no mention of the peregrine state either in the "Tetrabiblos" nor in the "Almagest".

Reference to peregrine as being devoid of dignity AND debility/detriment, is found in Abu Mashar's "Great Introduction" (and, I think also in the "Abbreviation"), in Paulus Alexandrianus, in Maximus (late Classical-era authors), and in Thabit ibn Qurra's "Ghayat el-Kawakeb' ("Way or Path of the Planets")
I seem to remember (but would have to check specifically) peregrine is also defined in this way in Valen's "Anthology" and (perhaps) in Maternus "Mathesis".

Al-Biruni ("Book of Instruction"), c 1058 AD, seems to give a definition of peregrine somewhat more in line with the later definitional framework of that state:
(pg. 82) "...if, however, it is not in a favorable situation, it is said to be "peregrine", while if either in its detriment or its fall. calamity is added to the alien situation."
Here, Al-Biruni seems to hold that the peregrine state (as just being devoid of dignities) is rather neutral, but coupled with also having detriment or fall, it is very disruptive/harmful to the influence of the planet: this is definitely a different attitude regarding peregrine than that held by later authors, who consider the state itself (just being devoid of dignities) as quite negative.

Manly P. Hall (20th century) makes reference to (unspecified) early authors who defined peregrine as "without essential dignity OR debility/detriment", and Modernist Charles Carter makes a similar historical definition of this term (Note: the peregrine state is not recognized in Modernist astrology)

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Unread 01-20-2012, 12:37 PM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be peregrine?

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Thanks guys and gals. It's page 112 in my copy too. Guess I should read more and question less...
Questioning people who might know is often a much faster way to find something out.

It's not like we refrain from using google and just let things we really want to know fall into our lives
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Unread 01-20-2012, 06:31 PM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be perigrine?

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Anciently, peregrine meant no dignity AND no detriment; around the time of Guido Bonatti this doctrine changed to being simply, no dignity: hence the later motto that "debility/detriment cannot save from peregrine". So the doctrine of being "isolated", "unconnected" (not connected by dignity NOR by debility), ie, "pergerine" (an unconnected wanderer) changed (about 800 or so years ago) into simply not having any dignity in its place.

(Personal note: while I can go (somewhat) with the original concept of "peregrine", I consider the concept as expressed/defined over the past 800 years, to be invalid, and (as I have posted in other threads here on AW), I reject the doctrine in practice)

Would mutual reception with another planet elevate a peregrine planet or make it less debilitated?
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Unread 01-20-2012, 07:08 PM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be perigrine?

Quote:
Reference to peregrine as being devoid of dignity AND debility/detriment, is found in Abu Mashar's "Great Introduction" (and, I think also in the "Abbreviation"), in Paulus Alexandrianus, in Maximus (late Classical-era authors), and in Thabit ibn Qurra's "Ghayat el-Kawakeb' ("Way or Path of the Planets")
I seem to remember (but would have to check specifically) peregrine is also defined in this way in Valen's "Anthology" and (perhaps) in Maternus "Mathesis".
Page number please. Some of those books are quite large.
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Unread 01-20-2012, 11:44 PM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be perigrine?

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I see this as being a dignity of sorts, and so therefore not peregrine...but, yup, noob here, lol.
This wasn't directed towards me, but I wanted to respond to it anyway.

Detriment and Fall are not dignities, they're debilities. A totally different class of things. Planets can be in mixed amounts of dignities and debilities at any one time. Mars in Cancer is in his Fall, but also his Triplicity at night, for example. Traditionally, the dignities and debilities of planets were considered to be like their houses. Mars in Aries was in his own house, Mars in Capricorn was the honored guest in Saturn's house, Mars in Pisces at Night was like being in a member of his family's house, etc.

On the other hands, Mars in Libra is like being in the house of his enemy, things don't make sense to Mars due his inability to relate to his environment. In this particular line of thought, Peregrine planets just need to be without dignity because the image of a peregrine planet is a wandering foreigner. There's no philosophical reason why peregrine and debility should be mutually exclusive since planets can both be in a place that injures them and foreign at the same time. Planets will often have places of dignity in their debilities that serve as temporary forts through hostile or foreign land, but without those protections, they become worse off.

It appears to come off as somewhat redundant, I grant you, but there's ample difference between the Sun just being peregrine in Taurus (here he's an out of place foreigner) and being both peregrine and in Detriment in Aquarius (where he's both an out of place foreigner and in an environment he can't do well in), so it is like a double dose. Not only am I in a place I don't belong, but now this place is hurting me!
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Unread 01-21-2012, 12:18 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be perigrine?

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This wasn't directed towards me, but I wanted to respond to it anyway.

Detriment and Fall are not dignities, they're debilities. A totally different class of things. Planets can be in mixed amounts of dignities and debilities at any one time. Mars in Cancer is in his Fall, but also his Triplicity at night, for example. Traditionally, the dignities and debilities of planets were considered to be like their houses. Mars in Aries was in his own house, Mars in Capricorn was the honored guest in Saturn's house, Mars in Pisces at Night was like being in a member of his family's house, etc.

On the other hands, Mars in Libra is like being in the house of his enemy, things don't make sense to Mars due his inability to relate to his environment. In this particular line of thought, Peregrine planets just need to be without dignity because the image of a peregrine planet is a wandering foreigner. There's no philosophical reason why peregrine and debility should be mutually exclusive since planets can both be in a place that injures them and foreign at the same time. Planets will often have places of dignity in their debilities that serve as temporary forts through hostile or foreign land, but without those protections, they become worse off.

It appears to come off as somewhat redundant, I grant you, but there's ample difference between the Sun just being peregrine in Taurus (here he's an out of place foreigner) and being both peregrine and in Detriment in Aquarius (where he's both an out of place foreigner and in an environment he can't do well in), so it is like a double dose. Not only am I in a place I don't belong, but now this place is hurting me!
Thanks, I really like your explination. I can see/understand how a planet can have that kind of debility/misfourtune stacked up, but that leads me to my next question...can the luminaries ever really be perigrine? At least in natal charts? Because, wouldn't that for instance mean that almost everyone (see above re Sun conj. Spica) born with Sun in Libra is kinda...misfortunate?
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Unread 01-21-2012, 12:53 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be perigrine?

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Originally Posted by tsmall
Because, wouldn't that for instance mean that almost everyone (see above re Sun conj. Spica) born with Sun in Libra is kinda...misfortunate?
Well, yes, definitely. People born with the Sun in Libra have a pretty debilitated Sun. There's nothing necessarily wrong with this, it's just that these people will have more difficulty expressing positive solar qualities or express more hardships relating to the house where Leo is on the cusp. Really the Sun isn't doing too hot if he's not in a Fire sign (where the overwhelming amount of his dignities are), so it's hardly a rare thing.

It's actually kind of weird because it turns out the luminaries are more likely to be pererine than the other planets since they lack the dignity of Face and only have one domicile.
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Unread 01-21-2012, 01:02 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be perigrine?

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It's actually kind of weird because it turns out the luminaries are more likely to be pererine than the other planets since they lack the dignity of Face and only have one domicile.
I had noticed that too. Maybe this is why psychologists and astrologers will never be out of work? Thanks for taking the time to explain. Though I am sure I'll happily spend the next few days wondering philosophically why the two most important planets are so often peregrine.
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Unread 01-21-2012, 01:15 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be perigrine?

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It's actually kind of weird because it turns out the luminaries are more likely to be pererine than the other planets since they lack the dignity of Face and only have one domicile.
The Luminaries do have Face dignities - but lack Term dignities.
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Unread 01-21-2012, 01:19 AM
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Re: Can planets in Fall or Detriment be perigrine?

In my opinion, planets in Detriment and Fall can be Peregrine - if they lack any Essential Dignity.

Also in my opinion, a mutual reception mitigates the Peregrine condition, but doesn't eliminate it .
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