Pauline dodekatemorion contrasted with “By 12 technique” of Valens/Maternus et al

JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
dr. farr, I'm exploring the idea of dodeks so using the example of a planet located at 25º Libra am I correct in thinking that:

(a) the Pauline dodekatemorion is 25º Leo

(b) the “by 12” dodekatemorion is 25º Cancer :smile:
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Yes and No:andy:!

For a planet @ 25 Libra:

+Yes, by Pauline dodek (x13 factor) the dodek falls @ 25 Leo

+No, by Egyptian dodek (x12 factor) the dodek falls @ 0 Leo
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
dr. farr said:
Yes and No:andy:!

For a planet @ 25 Libra:

+Yes, by Pauline dodek (x13 factor) the dodek falls @ 25 Leo

+No, by Egyptian dodek (x12 factor) the dodek falls @ 0 Leo
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(a) Thank you for the yes dr. farr, that I understand :smile:
(b) however, why the no?

Thinks...
 dr. farr, how is the Egyptian dodek of a planet at 25º Libra 0º Leo?


In the meantime, experimentally answering my own question, I speculate that an answer could possibly be as follows:


25º x 12 = 300º that's 10 Signs precisely
so then, counting forwards from Libra (including Libra) brings us to Cancer
I'm thinking then that you said 0º Leo because we must count an entire ten Signs and since it is an equal division, by the time we have counted to Cancer that has taken care of ten complete Signs - so that's the rationale of 0º Leo. That makes sense to me.


However, to check my thinking is correct let's take another example.


Given a planet located at 24º Libra, the Egyptian dodek would be:


24º x 12 = 288 that's nine Signs remainder 18º
counting as before forwards from Libra and including Libra, although this time nine Signs – brings us to Gemini.
However we have 18º left over
I'm thinking then that the Egyptian dodek for a planet at 24º Libra is therefore 18º Cancer


and the Pauline dodek for a planet at 24º Libra is therefore 12º Leo


makes sense dr. farr?:smile:



 
tsmall

tsmall

Premium Member
In Book I of Valen's Anthologies, chapter 4. (page 8 of the Riley pdf) he describes several methods for finding the ascendant. The first of these uses the dodekatemorion.

Having determined accurately the sun's degree position at the nativity, note where the dodekatemorion falls. The sign in trine to the left of this position will be the Ascendant, or the equilivalent sign (i.e. either masculine or feminine), providing you take into account the distinction between night and day births. For example: let the sun be in Aquarius 22*. The dodekatemorion of this point is in Scorpio...
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dr. farr, you posted on another thread these two methods for finding the dodekatemorion:

dr. farr said:
Dodekatemorion is used (in natal, event and mundane charts) to see the additional ramifications of the "shadow" of the planet (or degree or Lot) in the chart; there are 2 types of dodek: Egypitan and Pauline:
-in Egyptian you multiply the degree and minutes of the planet (or Lot) by 12, then subtract 30 for every sign it crosses (starting with the sign the planet or Lot is in), and when you cannot subtract 30 anymore, that is where the dodek (shadow) falls
Example: what is the dodek of Saturn in 15Aries00?
Answer = 15 x 12 = 130; subtract 30 for every sign starting with Aries: so -Aries = 100 left; minus Taurus = 70 left; minus Gemini = 40 left; minus Cancer = 10 left; since you cannot subtract 30 from 10, the dodek of Saturn falls @ 10Leo.

-in Pauline, multiply by 13 and use the same type of subtraction by 30
Example: what is the Pauline dodek of Sun in 22Aquarius00?
Answer: 22 x 13 = 286; subtract 30 for every sign (starting with the sign the Sun is in) so that would be 9 signs (270) which leaves 16 as remainder; therefore the dodek of the Sun would fall @ 16Scorpio.
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My understanding is that Valens would have been using the Egyptian method and not the Pauline method. Now, Valens in Book I does not state which he uses, nor does he describe how he got to Scorpio. Lastly he does not say at which degree of Scorpio (one of the reasons attempting his "adventures in finding the Ascendant" is, er, difficult.)

What is interesting about this paragraph is that if we do the math, 22x12=264, so 8 (30*) signs with 24* remaining. Counting from 0* Aquarius as you show above, we come to 0* Libra, with the dodek of 22* Aquarius being at 24* Libra. Well. That's not Scorpio. :pinched:

If we use the Pauline method then we have 22x13=286, or 9 (30*) signs with 16* remaining. Counting from 0* Aquarius that brings us to 16* Scorpio. hmmmm.

Either Valens was using the Pauline method, or...

Occam's razor?

Using the Egyptian (x12) method, if we start the count at 22* Aquarius, we count 8 signs to get to 22* Libra (240* from 22* Aquarius) then add 24* to bring us to....wait for it...16* Scorpio.

Could it be that we are meant to start the count from the exact degree of the planet whose dodek we are trying to determine? That would be the simplest answer.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Obviously Valens, using the Egyptian method, began the count from the degree of the planet whose dodek was being determined, at least in the example cited; you will find some of this in other ancient authors (eg, Maximus), however the general doctrine from the ancients (who all use the Eguptian method EXCEPT for Paulus) was to start the count from the beginning of the sign in which the planet is posited.

My experience has been entirely with the Pauline dodek method, so I cannot testify as to the Egyptian dodek method's results...
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
tsmall said:
In Book I of Valen's Anthologies, chapter 4. (page 8 of the Riley pdf) he describes several methods for finding the ascendant. The first of these uses the dodekatemorion.

Quote:
Having determined accurately the sun's degree position at the nativity, note where the dodekatemorion falls. The sign in trine to the left of this position will be the Ascendant, or the equilivalent sign (i.e. either masculine or feminine), providing you take into account the distinction between night and day births. For example: let the sun be in Aquarius 22*. The dodekatemorion of this point is in Scorpio...
Click to expand...
tsmall this is a most interesting ancient Rectification technique :smile:
 
tsmall

tsmall

Premium Member
JUPITERASC said:
tsmall this is a most interesting ancient Rectification technique :smile:
Click to expand...

Well, it would be if the rest of the method didn't involve counting from months? celebrations? solstices? :unsure:


Find the number <of days> from Toth to the day of birth; multiply the hour/time <of birth> by 15 and add the result to the first number. For day births count from Virgo, giving 30 to each sign. For night births, count from Pisces.
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Any one care to explain "Toth?" Or "Hadrian year 4, Mechir 13"?
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
tsmall said:
Well, it would be if the rest of the method didn't involve counting from months? celebrations? solstices? :unsure:
Any one care to explain "Toth?" Or "Hadrian year 4, Mechir 13"?
Click to expand...

QUOTE:

Thout Coptic [tʰoːuːt], also known as Tout, is the first month of the Coptic calendar. It lies between 11 September and 10 October of the Gregorian calendar. The month of Thout is also the first month of the Season of Akhet (Inundation) in Ancient Egypt, when the Nile floods historically covered the land of Egypt; it has not done so since the construction of the High Dam at Aswan.


The name of the month comes from Thoth, the Ancient Egyptian God of Wisdom.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thout

COPTIC CALENDAR INCLUDES THE MONTH OF THOUT AKA THOTH http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_calendar:smile:
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
tsmall said:
Well, it would be if the rest of the method didn't involve counting from months? celebrations? solstices? :unsure:

Any one care to explain "Toth?" Or "Hadrian year 4, Mechir 13"?
Click to expand...
QUOTE:

Meshir, also known as Amshir, is the sixth month of the Coptic calendar. It lies between February 8 and March 9 of the Gregorian calendar. The month of Meshir is also the second month of the Season of 'Proyet' (Growth and Emergence) in ancient Egypt, where the Nile floods recede and the crops start to grow throughout the land of Egypt.

The name of the month of Meshir comes from Mechir, the Ancient Egyptian God genius of wind.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meshir

Hence Valens 'Mechir' is aka Coptic calendar month 'Meshir' :smile:
 
Cap

Cap

Well-known member
This is all very interesting!

My questions are:

What is the practical use of dodeks, what does it signify?

Are dodeks similar to antiscia, in a sense of being a shadow of the planet?

How would you interpret a dodek in relation to original placement of the planet? Lets say, similar to example stated above, Mercury ruler of 7th is at 25 Libra in 11th and the dodek falls at 25 Leo in 9th. How would you interpret that?

Can dodeks be used in horary as well, or just in natal and event astrology?

Multiplying by 12 seems logical. It looks more harmonious and geometrical. What is the logic behind multiplying by 13?

Can someone answer at least some of these questions? Thanks
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Cap said:
This is all very interesting!

My questions are:

What is the practical use of dodeks, what does it signify?

ANSWER: THEY SHOW A KIND OF HARMONIC THRUST OR RAMIFICATION OF THE PLANET (OR ASCENDANT OR LOT, ETC) THEY THUS SHOW THE ADDITIONAL COSMIC INFLUENCES OPERATIVE BY RAMIFICATION UPON THAT HOROSCOPIC ELEMENT

Are dodeks similar to antiscia, in a sense of being a shadow of the planet?

ANSWER: IN A WAY, YES-BUT I CONSIDER THEM MORE AS BEING HARMONIC RAMIFICATIONS


How would you interpret a dodek in relation to original placement of the planet? Lets say, similar to example stated above, Mercury ruler of 7th is at 25 Libra in 11th and the dodek falls at 25 Leo in 9th. How would you interpret that?

ANSWER: ALL OF THE ANCIENT AUTHORS INSTRUCTED THAT THE PLACE OF THE DODEK BE DELINEATED EXACTLY AS IF THE PLANET (OR OTHER POINT) WERE ACTUALLY THERE (AT THE DODEK PLACE) THIS DELINEATION WOULD BE ADDED TO WHATEVER THE DELINEATION OF THE PLANET IN ITS ORIGINAL PLACE WAS, AND THE COMBINATION (SYNTHESIS) OF THESE 2 DELINEATIONS WOULD BE THE COMPLETE ELABORATION OF THAT PLANET (OR OTHER POINT) IN THAT HOROSCOPE.
IN THE EXAMPLE GIVEN ABOVE, YOU WOULD FULLY DELINEATE MERCURY @ 25 LIBRA IN THE 11TH AND ALSO YOUR WOULD FULLY DELINEATE MERCURY @ 25 LEO IN THE 9TH-THOSE 2 DELINEATIONS TAKEN TOGETHER WOULD BE THE COMPLETE MERCURY DELINEATION IN THAT CHART.

Can dodeks be used in horary as well, or just in natal and event astrology?

ANSWER: I AM NOT AWARE THAT THIS HAS EVER BEEN DONE: DODEKS COMPLETELY DISAPPEARED FROM ASTROLOGICAL PRACTICE BY THE TIME OF THE BEGINNING OF THE ISLAMIC TRANSITIONAL ERA-SINCE HORARY APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED TO THE WEST AROUND THE TIME OF THE BEGINNING OF THIS PERIOD, SO THE PIONEERS OF HORARY PROBABLY WERE NOT AWARE OF THE DODEK METHODOLOGY (VEDIC ASTROLOGY-WHICH PROBABLY ORIGNINATED HORARY AS WE HAVE COME TO KNOW IT, AROUND THE 6TH CENTURY AD, NEVER USED THE DODEK CONCEPT OR METHODOLOGY, PROBABLY BECAUSE OF THE EXTENSIVE USE OF VARGA-IE HARMONIC LIKE-CHARTS SINCE THE EARLIEST PERIODS OF VEDIC PRACTICE)
I MYSELF HAVE NEVER APPLIED DODEK TO HORARY-NEVER FELT THE NEED TO DO SO-HOWEVER, THEORETICALLY THERE IS NO REASON WHY DODEKS COULD NOT BE APPLIED TO HORARY (MIGHT BE AN INTERESTING EXPERIMENT)

Multiplying by 12 seems logical. It looks more harmonious and geometrical. What is the logic behind multiplying by 13?

ANSWER: ALL THE HELLENIST AUTHORS USED THE BY 12 DODEK-ONLY PAULUS USED THE BY 13-HE DID SO BECAUSE WITH THE BY 12 METHOD THE PLANET COULD NEVER BE "THRUST" FORWARD TO THE SAME PLACE AS THE ORIGINAL POSITION-WITH THE BY 13 METHOD THIS COULD BE A POSSIBILITY AND APPARENTLY PAULUS CONSIDERED THIS TO BE IMPORTANT (SEE FULL EXPLANATION IN GREENABUM'S "LATE CLASSICAL ASTROLOGY") i HAVE ONLY EXPERIMENTED WITH THE PAULINE DODEK (BY 13) AND I HAVE BEEN FULLY SATISFIED WITH THE RESULTS OBTAINED.

Can someone answer at least some of these questions? Thanks
Click to expand...

Hope I have answered your questions!
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Greenbaums "Late Classical Astrology", elucidating the doctrines of Paulus Alexandrianus (4th century AD) is a good one; the by 12 (Egyptian) dodek method is discussed in Valens. Suprisingly, almost no Traditionalists (except Robert Hand) and very few neo-Hellenists, have made much application of the dodek technique (whether the by 12 or by 13 method) Authors like Greenbaum (c2000) thought that once this technique had been translated into English, many would begin experimenting with it in practical delineation-however, this did not happen over the past 13 years and dodeks remain a largely unused ancient technique...
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
poyi said:
Where and which textbook/s should I consider to get for learning Dodekatemorion?
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LATE CLASSICAL ASTROLOGY
PAULUS ALEXANDRINUS AND OLYMPIODORUS :smile:

TRANSLATED BY DORIAN GREENBAUM - ARHAT
http://www.astroclassic.org/text-trad/PO a.pdf 93 pages and free to download/print out

dr. farr said:
Greenbaums "Late Classical Astrology", elucidating the doctrines of Paulus Alexandrianus (4th century AD) is a good one;

the by 12 (Egyptian) dodek method is discussed in Valens.
Click to expand...


VETTIUS VALENS entire ANTHOLOGY translated from the original ancient Greek by Professor Riley and made freely available online to read/download/print out from http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf


dr. farr said:
Suprisingly, almost no Traditionalists (except Robert Hand) and very few neo-Hellenists, have made much application of the dodek technique (whether the by 12 or by 13 method)

Authors like Greenbaum (c2000) thought that once this technique had been translated into English, many would begin experimenting with it in practical delineation-however, this did not happen over the past 13 years and dodeks remain a largely unused ancient technique...
Click to expand...
Free software program Morinus has a feature that calculates the dodekatemorion

Astrologer Rumen Kolev's software provides the location of the dodekatemorion of each planet, the nodes, the Part of Fortune, Ascendant, MC and so on and so forth http://www.babylonianastrology.com/...&category_id=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1
 
K

Konrad

Account Closed
It seems to me that dodekatemoria are fractals of space, just as Primary Directions and profections are fractals of time.
 
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