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Fixed stars, asteroids and other cosmic objects For astrology talks on fixed stars, Chiron, Sedna, Eris or any other newly discovered or little known cosmic object.


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  #1  
Unread 06-19-2009, 09:45 PM
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Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Barbara Hand Clow suggests Chiron as the ruler of Virgo in her book "Chiron." I'm interested to hear some thoughts on this rulership assignment.


<i>This is of</i>particular interest <i>to me since my sun is conjunct my ascendant in Virgo and in a t-square with Chiron/Moon (right on top of my Gemini midheaven) and Jupiter/Uranus.</i>

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Unread 06-19-2009, 10:35 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

In my opinion, Mercury is the Domicile ruler (and also the Exaltation ruler)of Virgo. It's the Nocturnal (or some would say Feminine - but I'm trying to de-genderdize this usage) expression of Mercury.

Although Chiron's mythology may be similar in some ways to what we think of as "Virgoan" traits, similarity is not a basis for rulership.

The Classical rulership/dignity scheme, as I've said here before earler in another thread, is a logical, symmetrical system whereby seven Luminaries and planets are divided amongst the twelve signs of the Zodiac.

Not to say that only the seven Classical bodies are the only thing we can look at in a chart - but other bodies do not fit into the Essential Dignity scheme.
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Unread 06-20-2009, 12:42 AM
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Question Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Ever since I first heard of Chiron, it's always made sense to me that it is the (evolved) ruler of Virgo. The other thing that did it for me with this topic is looking at this, as Clow points out too in her book, the Virgo/Pisces and Chiron/Neptune combination or polarity.

Sorry but there's no way Mercury can go toe-to-toe with Neptune! Chiron on the other hand...perfect fit and balance imo.

I've got Pisces Asc. and Chiron is conjunct my Sun (in Capricorn) so I've got a rather intimate relationship with these energies. To me, Chiron is the new evolved ruler of Virgo. Humanity outgrew Mercury as ruler of Virgo.
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Unread 06-20-2009, 02:58 AM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

How much observational data do we have on Chiron through each of the signs to even consider assigning it to be the ruler of anything?
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Unread 06-21-2009, 08:55 AM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

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Originally Posted by Lapis View Post
Ever since I first heard of Chiron, it's always made sense to me that it is the (evolved) ruler of Virgo. The other thing that did it for me with this topic is looking at this, as Clow points out too in her book, the Virgo/Pisces and Chiron/Neptune combination or polarity.

Sorry but there's no way Mercury can go toe-to-toe with Neptune! Chiron on the other hand...perfect fit and balance imo.

I've got Pisces Asc. and Chiron is conjunct my Sun (in Capricorn) so I've got a rather intimate relationship with these energies. To me, Chiron is the new evolved ruler of Virgo. Humanity outgrew Mercury as ruler of Virgo.
I'm with you, Lapis.

We're all having to keep up - Chiron is dragging us kicking and screaming....
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Unread 06-22-2009, 07:05 AM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

I'm intellectually opposed to it. It seems to me that Chiron represents emotional/psychological/spiritual issues. It doesn't to me seem to represent the Virgoan conscientiousness, the work, health, education and order habits of Virgo and the sixth house; so while I have great respect for Chiron (and I think its 50-year orbit could be great for Virgo), it doesn't seem like a match to me. I kind of like the asteroid Pallas; I feel it's been overlooked and matches Virgo and the sixth house very well.

I had a discussion about it where I attempted to use horary to determine if Chiron could rule Virgo on this page for anyone whose interested.

I read her book and thought it was mostly amazing, but I wouldn't take someone preaching Nibiru very seriously, sorry if there's any hurt feelings about Scientology but that's what it is. I disagreed with some major things (Venus preferring Taurus, Nibiru) in her book and thought she didn't do enough research, like at one point she misquoted Jesus about the "camel passing through a needle's eye" thing; It's just that if I were releasing a book I'd want it to be perfect. (Chiron doesn't rule the critical nature of my Virgo ascendant! ..Though it might wound the person it's directed at)
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Unread 06-22-2009, 09:29 PM
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Thumbs down Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallas-trine-Mars View Post

...I read her book and thought it was mostly amazing, but I wouldn't take someone preaching Nibiru very seriously, sorry if there's any hurt feelings about Scientology but that's what it is. I disagreed with some major things (Venus preferring Taurus, Nibiru) in her book and thought she didn't do enough research, like at one point she misquoted Jesus about the "camel passing through a needle's eye" thing; It's just that if I were releasing a book I'd want it to be perfect. (Chiron doesn't rule the critical nature of my Virgo ascendant! ..Though it might wound the person it's directed at)
Pallas-trine-Mars,


"...but I wouldn't take someone preaching Nibiru very seriously, sorry if there's any hurt feelings about Scientology but that's what it is."

Clow has nothing to do with Scientology (and neither do I) so what was your point in saying that...besides the obvious?

You can have your Virgo Asc be ruled by any old little planet or asteroid you wish.
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Last edited by waybread; 06-22-2009 at 10:16 PM. Reason: personal attacks deleted
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Unread 06-22-2009, 10:09 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Psalm, this is an interesting topic--and I have some battle scars from proposing Ceres as the modern ruler of Virgo on another astrology forum to prove it! On this other thread, there were plenty of traditionalists, as well as supporters of different bodies such as Pallas or Isis.

I tend to go by two things. One is the mythology (Roman, Greek, and precursors such as Babylonian, Egyptian...) that gives planets and signs their special characteristics. The other is actually working with a new candidate as a ruler, and seeing whether there is a good fit or not.

As far as the mythology goes, the ancient Sumerian goddess Nisaba was a scribe and record-keeper for grain stores, but her functions gradually became usurped by male gods, culminating in our Mercury. So if we dig back and look at Mercury's lineage, not to mention modern Virgo's analytical qualities, Mercury/Virgo is a decent fit.

I wouldn't propose substituting a modern ruler for a traditional one. If a modern ruler makes sense, the traditional ruler remains intact as such.

I thought Ceres was a good fit with Virgo from a mythological perspective, as both have ancient agricultural connotations (cf. contellation Virgo's stars Spica and Vindemiatrix) and a kind of law-giving or rule-minded function. Manilius, the classical astrology author, said that Ceres ruled Virgo, although of course, he referred to a goddess, not to a planetoid/asteroid.

I don't see mythological Chiron functioning in this way. Chiron was a male centaur who became seriously injured and grew in wisdom over his experience, not the "maiden" associated with Virgo. Virgo is a healer but she is also symbolized as a winged woman. If anything, I think Chiron could be the modern ruler of Sagittarius; or the 13th zodiacal constellation Ophiuchus (another healer), if astrologers ever welcome him into the zodiac.

If mythology is not everyone's cup of tea?

The other issue has to do with sign rulers being something more than sensible associations. I work a lot with "accidental house cusp rulers", or "lords". Basically if I wish to learn about the matters of a particular house, especially one that has no planets in it, I would look at the ruler of the sign on the house cusp. For example, if someone has Taurus on the MC and wonders what career would suit him, I would look to the position of Venus by its house and aspects to come up with some suggestions.

So as a house cusp ruler, Chiron ruling Virgo would either provide useful information or it wouldn't. One way to check this out would be to look at a lot of charts, using Chiron as, say, the MC ruler for people with Virgo on their MC, and see whether it makes sense.

The modern rulers (Uranus, Neptune, Pluto) do gum up the symmetry of the traditional dignity scheme, but then I do think they work fairly well as accidental house cusp rulers.

I have Virgo rising, as well, Psalm! And I am not trying to discourage your proposition at all, as we all learn by exchanges with people having different viewpoints.

Last edited by waybread; 06-22-2009 at 10:21 PM.
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Unread 06-22-2009, 11:22 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

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Originally Posted by Lapis View Post
Pallas-trine-Mars,


"...but I wouldn't take someone preaching Nibiru very seriously, sorry if there's any hurt feelings about Scientology but that's what it is."

Clow has nothing to do with Scientology (and neither do I) so what was your point in saying that...besides the obvious?

You can have your Virgo Asc be ruled by any old little planet or asteroid you wish.
Maybe you didn't read her book, Clow postulates that Nibiru is a real planet and that it rules Libra. Seriously, you can read just about any line in the book and see that there's some real Neptunian influence in her writing style, it's very... Fanciful I guess is the right word, whimsical, something like that, it has alot of feeling and imagination in it (is it her Libra third house ruler Venus in Pisces? ...And interestingly conjunct Vesta. Or Neptune in her 3rd house by whole sign?). Nibiru is something Scientologists believe in, the idea of it came from L. Ron Hubbard or Zacharia Sitchin, but I think it was based on something the Babylonians believed in. Now, we don't know of all of the Solar Systems bodies, but I have my doubts about something like Nibiru, and to assume that it exist and then state that it rules a sign jumps the gun and is irrational, so if she's jumping to this conclusion it makes me question her practicality and grasp of reality a little. If Scientology or Nibiru were her beliefs, I'm not gonna knock 'em because to believe what you choose to is a birthright of everyone born with the ability to believe in something - not that I'm gonna believe it without proof or for other reasons.

I also might do more research on the Nodes, they're usually considered very malefic in Vedic and everyone has different thoughts on what they do, but she has it on her ascendant and seems sort of like an idealist..

Actually Pallas is about the size of Oregon, about 300 miles across and used to be grouped as a planet, unlike Chiron which never was. It's no Jupiter, but it's much bigger than Chiron. I'm not totally convinced myself that Pallas is perfect, but it seems worth looking into to me from what I've read and my own experiences with it. I'm also looking at the other "minors" and TNOs like Sedna and Quaoar. I'm all about an empirical and psychological approach to astrology.
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Unread 06-23-2009, 02:33 AM
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Wink Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Virgo...Mercury?


My nChiron at 8* Sagittariius/12th house opposes nMercury at 6* Gemini.

In common with the late astrologer Zipporah Dobyns, who said, "The myth of Chiron points to an association with Sagittarius," imho Chiron feels at home where Jupiter honored him, in the stars
of the constellation Sagittarius.

Virgo energy is mutable Earth.

I'm happy that Mercury was given the natural rulership of the (cadent) 3rd house,

which is related to human intellect, to thinking, writing, speaking, realizing mind.

Maybe the idea of Mercury's rulership of the mysterious, mutable Earth sign of Virgo is aligned with the
possibility that Mercury is somehow "pushing" our human perception of ourselves to and through the
doors of perception so we will know we are intricately, harmoniously connected with the Earth and our Solar system.

Virgo is a place of great mystery, which I have come to connect, in my mind, with the Sphinx--a female power symbol of ancient meaning, later turned into a female "monster" or given the face of a male or turned into an architectural statement.

The Sphinx knows the answer to the riddle. The Egyptian Sphinx in Giza gazes East, honoring
our Star, the rising Sun.

Here's an interesting blog by Joseph Panek who talks about the symbolism of the
Sphinx as the spiritual guardian of the Mysteries of Nature...

http://www.aseekersthoughts.com/2008/10/sphinx.html

And Zip Dobyns' suggestion that Ceres and Vesta are "keys to the Virgo principle" makes sense to me...I agree with you, Waybread!

I really love learning every day about the interrelationship of Sun/Jupiter/Earth/
Mars/humans --

(Think of it: the "Eddy" Minimum of solar activity; planets and "Center of Mass" affecting the Sun as we're affecting the climate and everything's connected to
everything...during this transition, human consciousness must evolve and become multidimensional consciousness, as taught by Chiron the healer!) --

(Hi Lapis! I think I'm beginning to realize now that there's a difference between consciousness/multidimensionality/ascension and...ET...but I'm not sure how to do it yet.)

Happy new moon/Solstice!

C1
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Unread 07-12-2009, 06:48 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapis View Post
Ever since I first heard of Chiron, it's always made sense to me that it is the (evolved) ruler of Virgo. The other thing that did it for me with this topic is looking at this, as Clow points out too in her book, the Virgo/Pisces and Chiron/Neptune combination or polarity.

Sorry but there's no way Mercury can go toe-to-toe with Neptune! Chiron on the other hand...perfect fit and balance imo.

I've got Pisces Asc. and Chiron is conjunct my Sun (in Capricorn) so I've got a rather intimate relationship with these energies. To me, Chiron is the new evolved ruler of Virgo. Humanity outgrew Mercury as ruler of Virgo.

I agree. I was just researching Chiron + Virgo and found this lovely site. I would have to agree with the Barbara Clow observation of the Pisces/Virgo...Neptune/Chiron axis. As energetics go, Neptune sits atop the head, Chiron rules the third eye. Clarity through the fog of pain.

I am a Virgo, Leo Rising, with Chiron in Taurus in the tenth house. Grand Trine btw Ciron, Mercury (Libra) and the Moon (Aquarius). So I think the proof is in the pudding with regard to data and knowledge concerning rulership. She who feels it knows it.
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Unread 07-12-2009, 06:59 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

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Originally Posted by Lapis View Post
Ever since I first heard of Chiron, it's always made sense to me that it is the (evolved) ruler of Virgo. The other thing that did it for me with this topic is looking at this, as Clow points out too in her book, the Virgo/Pisces and Chiron/Neptune combination or polarity.

Sorry but there's no way Mercury can go toe-to-toe with Neptune! Chiron on the other hand...perfect fit and balance imo.

I've got Pisces Asc. and Chiron is conjunct my Sun (in Capricorn) so I've got a rather intimate relationship with these energies. To me, Chiron is the new evolved ruler of Virgo. Humanity outgrew Mercury as ruler of Virgo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallas-trine-Mars View Post
I'm intellectually opposed to it. It seems to me that Chiron represents emotional/psychological/spiritual issues. It doesn't to me seem to represent the Virgoan conscientiousness, the work, health, education and order habits of Virgo and the sixth house; so while I have great respect for Chiron (and I think its 50-year orbit could be great for Virgo), it doesn't seem like a match to me. I kind of like the asteroid Pallas; I feel it's been overlooked and matches Virgo and the sixth house very well.

I had a discussion about it where I attempted to use horary to determine if Chiron could rule Virgo on this page for anyone whose interested.

I read her book and thought it was mostly amazing, but I wouldn't take someone preaching Nibiru very seriously, sorry if there's any hurt feelings about Scientology but that's what it is. I disagreed with some major things (Venus preferring Taurus, Nibiru) in her book and thought she didn't do enough research, like at one point she misquoted Jesus about the "camel passing through a needle's eye" thing; It's just that if I were releasing a book I'd want it to be perfect. (Chiron doesn't rule the critical nature of my Virgo ascendant! ..Though it might wound the person it's directed at)
As a Virgo myself, I may have to suggest putting the intellectual cap down on this one. Getting away from the illussion of separation, let's discuss health and work as not only a physical phenomena but a psychological-mental, and spiritual phenomena. The 6th house has to do with health and healing modalities. Virgo as a sign, focuses on systems of movement. The Process or journey, as oppossed to the fixed state that one arrives at. Pallas does have a relationship to Virgo, I can agree. But rulership. The precision applied in healing and health which spans the physical and spiritual realm is very much Chirotic in nature. The mercurial mental energy of Virgo is not the intellectual knowing that Gemini rules, it is an innate intelligence being tapped into. It is Intuition. Intuit. Into it. How does one trvers waters of inner hell, walk through the shadow abyss of the soul, eyes closed, mouth shut, hands tied?..... With the third eye open. The soul's gaze takes you through. Endurance is the name of this game and the Virgoan tenacity is up for the challenge. The endurance to stare ignorance in the face. To question harmful illusion.
And the compassion, patience and service-oriented nature, to fix it. By fix it, I dont mean make things go away. To fix is to honor the lessons learned from painful growth, and applky them in the future.
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Unread 07-12-2009, 07:13 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Here's a test you can do to see if Chiron (or any other body other than Mercury) is the Domicile ruler of Virgo:

Go back and look at a large number of Horary charts that have concrete, verifiable, successful answers where Mercury was one of the Significators as Domicile ruler of Virgo.

Substitute Chiron (or your other preferred body) as the Significator and see if the chart works.

Unless one can provide research that proves Chiron (or another body) works better in valid horary charts as the Domocile ruler of Virgo, then all the discussion is just the expression of opinion rather than anything backed up by reality.

One can also do this with any other Rulership/Body combo you wish.

In my opinion, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Unread 07-12-2009, 08:22 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

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Here's a test you can do to see if Chiron (or any other body other than Mercury) is the Domicile ruler of Virgo:

Go back and look at a large number of Horary charts that have concrete, verifiable, successful answers where Mercury was one of the Significators as Domicile ruler of Virgo.

Substitute Chiron (or your other preferred body) as the Significator and see if the chart works.

Unless one can provide research that proves Chiron (or another body) works better in valid horary charts as the Domocile ruler of Virgo, then all the discussion is just the expression of opinion rather than anything backed up by reality.

One can also do this with any other Rulership/Body combo you wish.

In my opinion, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I am hearing you out. But keep in mind that this science is young, and heavily influenced by one side of existence. Matriarchal to patriarchal dominion had the Virgin go from a Volcano tamer to a chastity belt wavering fraile entity.... As with regard to RE search...It is searching again for things already found and known. So if your REALITY is based on second hand knowledge, go for it. If you like it I love it. But we are like infants scraping at the knowl;edge accessed over hundreds of thousands of years ago...called by another name. For me....as a Virgo....experiential knowledge breeds wisdom. I have experienced the Chiron perspective of rulership, and for me, it fits perfectly as the ruling body. Wether your books written by your guys states affirmative or not, does not dictate my belief. They had us all confused for a long time with the books...stating Mercury.... well you know.

Personally, I feel we as humans rely on external knowledge so much, we miss the point of studying something like astrology...which is to trust yourself. Your intuition. Mercury NEVER felt correct as a ruler. Because it is not a mercurial mental energy coming from the Virgo.
It is a total physical, mental, spiritual thought process. So we can agree to disagree, if you prefer....
But I know what feels right. I know the astrology we work with today-Greek-is shared info...to be polite, as well as being quite young. Whatever we choose to call the names...he who feels it knows it.

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---- The Chiron Ninja
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Unread 07-12-2009, 08:38 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

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Originally Posted by Evolutionmuse View Post
Mercury NEVER felt correct as a ruler. Because it is not a mercurial mental energy coming from the Virgo.
It is a total physical, mental, spiritual thought process. So we can agree to disagree, if you prefer....
Please give us your definition of Mercurial energy, so we can see if there is a common basis to continue the discussion on.

Also, as I stated before, affinity is NOT the same as rulership.

Last edited by Frank; 07-12-2009 at 08:40 PM.
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Unread 07-12-2009, 09:08 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

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Please give us your definition of Mercurial energy, so we can see if there is a common basis to continue the discussion on.

Also, as I stated before, affinity is NOT the same as rulership.
Sure, there is an affinity. There is not really a discussion to continue, unless we are trying to convince each other of our stances. I am not fixed on you adopting my belief. But leave some space for it to exist, how bout it.

MERCURIAL; swiftly moving, communicative, intellectual exchange, the lower octave of Uranus. Potential to be ungrounded, which is not Virgoan at all. Virgo, as an Earth sign, does emit movement. Have you ever heard of Vulcan being in rulership of Virgo? Again, as a Virgo myself, maybe we can leave some room for another interpretation.
I will not be convinced, nor am I attempting to convince you.
But I am attempting to share this perspective, experiential.
For me, Mercury has never fit. Affinity, perhaps you can elaborate on what that is. Mercury, I feel, does have a relationship, or affinity with Virgo. Mercury being the power of word to manifest form (Saturn). But as a rulership goes...... I am unattached to Mercury as a ruler.
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?c...=0&aspc=1&ast=


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Unread 07-12-2009, 11:17 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

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Sure, there is an affinity. There is not really a discussion to continue, unless we are trying to convince each other of our stances. I am not fixed on you adopting my belief. But leave some space for it to exist, how bout it.

MERCURIAL; swiftly moving, communicative, intellectual exchange, the lower octave of Uranus. Potential to be ungrounded, which is not Virgoan at all. Virgo, as an Earth sign, does emit movement. Have you ever heard of Vulcan being in rulership of Virgo? Again, as a Virgo myself, maybe we can leave some room for another interpretation.
I will not be convinced, nor am I attempting to convince you.
But I am attempting to share this perspective, experiential.
For me, Mercury has never fit. Affinity, perhaps you can elaborate on what that is. Mercury, I feel, does have a relationship, or affinity with Virgo. Mercury being the power of word to manifest form (Saturn). But as a rulership goes...... I am unattached to Mercury as a ruler.
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?c...=0&aspc=1&ast=


~Peace & Sound~
But it seems like you are ignoring the original question that was asked here----How would Chiron fare as the significator for Virgo in a yes/no horary?

It seems to me that would be a more 'scientific' way to investigate the rulership. You are saying that instead of doing that, you aRE going with your own personal, intuitive feeling about which one fits better. That does not seem like a valid enough reason to change the traditional rulership imo.
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Unread 07-12-2009, 11:28 PM
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Rather than offer my own opinion, I will go with Lilly's description of Mercury. (Public Domain, no copyright issues.):

"[NATURE.] We may not call him either Masculine or Feminine, for he is either the one or other as joyned to any Planet; for if in Conjunction with a Masculine Planet, he becomes Masculine; if with a Feminine, then Feminine, but of his own nature he is cold and dry, and therefore Melancholly; with the good he is good, with the evil Planets ill:

[ELEMENTS.] In the Elements the Water; amongst the humours, the mixt, he rules the animal spirit: he is author of subtilty, tricks, devices, perjury, &c.

[MANNERS WHEN WELL PLACED.] Being wel dignified, he represents a man of a subtil and politick brain, intellect, and cogitation; an excellent disputant or Logician, arguing with learning and discretion, and using much eloquence in his speech, a searcher into all kinds of Mysteries and Learning, sharp and witty, learning almost any thing without a Teacher; ambitious of being exquisite in every Science, desirious naturally of travel and seeing foraign parts: a man of an unwearied fancy, curious in the search of any occult knowledge; able by his own Genius to produce wonders; given to Divination and the more secret knowledge; if he turn Merchant, no man exceeds him in a way of Trade or invention of new wayes whereby to obtain wealth.

[MANNERS, WHEN ILL PLACED OR DIGNIFIED.] A troublesome wit, a kinde of Phrenetick man, his tongue and Pen against every man, wholly bent to spoil his estate and time in prating and trying nice conclusions to no purpose; a great lyar, boaster, pratler, busibody, false, a tale—carrier, given to wicked ARTS, as Necromancy, and such like ungodly knowledges; easie of beleef,an asse or very ideot, constant in no place or opinion, cheating and theeving every where; a news—monger, pretending all manner of knowledge, but guilty of no true or solid learning; a trifler; a meer frantick fellow; if he prove a Divine, then a meer verball fellow, frothy of no judgment, easily perverted, constant in nothing but idle words and bragging.

[CORPORATURE,] Vulgarly he denotes one of an high stature and straight thin spare body, an high forehead and somewhat narrow long face, long nose; fair eyes, neither perfectly black or gray, thin lips and nose, little hair on the chin, but much on his head, and it a sad brown inclining to blacknesse; long arms, fingers and hands; his complexion like an Olive or Chestnut colour. You must more observe Mercury then all the Planets; for having any aspect to a Planet, he doth more usually partake of the influence of that Planet then nay other doth: if with Saturn then heavy, with Jupiter more temperate, with Mars more rash, with Sun more genteele, with Venus more jesting, with Moon more shifter.

[ORIENTALL..] When he is Oriental, his complexion is honey colour, or like one wel Sun-burnt; in the stature of his body not very high, but wel joynted, smal eyes, not much hair; in very truth, according to the the height of body, very wel composed, but stil a defect in the complexion, viz. swarty brown, and in the tongue, viz, all for his own ends.

[OCCIDENTALL.] When Occidental, a tawny visage, lank body, small slender limbs, hollow eyes, and sparkling and red or fiery; the whole frame of body inclining to drinesse.

[QUALITY OF MEN AND PROFESSIONS.] He generally signifies all literated men, Philosophers, Mathematicians, Astrologians, Merchants, Secretaries, Scriveners, Diviners, Sculptors, Poets, Orators, Advocates, School-masters, Stationers, Printers, Exchangers of Money, Atturneys, Emperours, Embassadours, Commissioners, Clerks, Artificers, generally Accomptants, Solicitors, sometimes Theeves, pratling muddy Ministers, busie Sectaries, and they unlearned; Gramarians, Taylors, Carriers, Messengers, Foot-men, Userers."
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  #19  
Unread 07-12-2009, 11:31 PM
Evolutionmuse Evolutionmuse is offline
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

HORARY: I am not sure what that is. Is that Uranian Astrology, which is the perspective I am coming from?

To not ignore the question, my response to science is that I am pulling this information from The book Chiron by Barbara Hand Clow. As for rulership, I found her limited information resonated with what my intuition had already felt.
And rulership signifies an ability to use the energy at hand. I am pretty comfortable with my Mercury, my grasp of communication, my ease of learning languages, however, as a RULERSHIP, it has not fit. Ms. Clow's data, with my own primordial data (intuition) regardless of if one feels it is valid or scientific, has been enough, for me. Again, I am not attemepting to promote a convincing convention. But as a VIRGO, and a long time student of astrology, I offer only this evidence to add to the equation. Take it lightly.

Science, research. Fine and dandy, but I do not need to be told something is right to believe it. Again, that is my approach.
I am here to learn more as well. Like, what is horary?



Last edited by Evolutionmuse; 07-12-2009 at 11:35 PM.
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  #20  
Unread 07-12-2009, 11:40 PM
Evolutionmuse Evolutionmuse is offline
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Nice description!! I enjoyed reading the lengthy, mercurial description. This is exactly why Mercury as a ruler has never resonated. The intellect of the earthly plane is not the foundation of the Virgoan presence. Knowledge transitioning into wisdom is the Virgoan presence. So, as Virgo sits in the 6th house, on the cusp of the first and 2nd half of the zodiac, so does the energy represent a bridging, between knowledge and experience. I have found Chiron to be that bridge. Thank you for the post. And can you point out where one can find what horary is?
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  #21  
Unread 07-12-2009, 11:46 PM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evolutionmuse View Post
HORARY: I am not sure what that is. Is that Uranian Astrology, which is the perspective I am coming from?

To not ignore the question, my response to science is that I am pulling this information from The book Chiron by Barbara Hand Clow. As for rulership, I found her limited information resonated with what my intuition had already felt.
And rulership signifies an ability to use the energy at hand. I am pretty comfortable with my Mercury, my grasp of communication, my ease of learning languages, however, as a RULERSHIP, it has not fit. Ms. Clow's data, with my own primordial data (intuition) regardless of if one feels it is valid or scientific, has been enough, for me. Again, I am not attemepting to promote a convincing convention. But as a VIRGO, and a long time student of astrology, I offer only this evidence to add to the equation. Take it lightly.

Science, research. Fine and dandy, but I do not need to be told something is right to believe it. Again, that is my approach.
I am here to learn more as well. Like, what is horary?
The only reason that I called you on it is because you told a newbie to the forum that Mercury was NOT the ruler of his Virgo nodes. You told him very authoritatively that Chiron was his proper ruler.


Arguing it, debating it , discussing it is one thing. But telling a new student, flat out, that it is the correct new rulership is off base imo.
Handclow has written a great book, but that is still not enough to change the entire rulership system.
And you had better google the term 'horary' if you want to understand what a huge segment of astrological knowledge you are missing.

Last edited by katydid; 07-12-2009 at 11:55 PM.
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  #22  
Unread 07-13-2009, 12:03 AM
Evolutionmuse Evolutionmuse is offline
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

I am also a newbie to this site. Yes, that was a pretty authoritative statement, but it was said to spark inquiry, not challenge the world of astrology. Horary, I googled, and I get it. Not sure how it applies to designating rulership, however.
So, we all have these systems, we choose to follow. I am getting familiar with this site. Actually, the only reason I found this site was searching for Virgo+Chiron info, to see if it is a common idea. We are all students, learning, such as if Chiron has a new ruler. We would learn about it in a forum like this.

So, if I would like to call Chiron the ruler of Virgo, in my opinion, I believe I can.
My evidence is another text, much like yours.
And the individual I spoke it to will have to do his own research. But, they seemed to appreciate the info. I feel it is a planet, asteroid, worth sitting with , especially since it is sitting in Aquarius right now, illuminating the wound upon humanity.

So I appreciate all the info shared, and hope I can offer the same. Perspective.

~Peace & Sound~
Amber
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  #23  
Unread 07-13-2009, 12:23 AM
katydid katydid is offline
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evolutionmuse View Post
I am also a newbie to this site. Yes, that was a pretty authoritative statement, but it was said to spark inquiry, not challenge the world of astrology. Horary, I googled, and I get it. Not sure how it applies to designating rulership, however.

~Peace & Sound~
Amber
Here is how it applies to rulership. A horary chart foretells the outcome of a particular situation. A lost article, a troubled relationship, a new job. There is a yes or no answer, and it is pretty absolute. So when the situation unfolds, we can look back and see clearly
if the chart was read correctly to foretell the outcome. So as it is now, if a cusp is ruled by virgo, we use mercury to predict the outcome. And it works. So the question is,will Chiron work in place of mercury?
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  #24  
Unread 07-14-2009, 05:02 AM
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waybread waybread is online now
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post
Here's a test you can do to see if Chiron (or any other body other than Mercury) is the Domicile ruler of Virgo:

Go back and look at a large number of Horary charts that have concrete, verifiable, successful answers where Mercury was one of the Significators as Domicile ruler of Virgo.

Substitute Chiron (or your other preferred body) as the Significator and see if the chart works.

Unless one can provide research that proves Chiron (or another body) works better in valid horary charts as the Domocile ruler of Virgo, then all the discussion is just the expression of opinion rather than anything backed up by reality.

One can also do this with any other Rulership/Body combo you wish.

In my opinion, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Frank, I hear you! I have made a similar argument before. But because I don't do horary astrology, I would look at so-called accidental house cusp rulers or lords in other kinds of astrology such as timing of transits or character delineation. If Chiron, Ceres, or some other body would work as well as Mercury, I would find that more convincing than mere affinity; because some affinities overlap a lot.
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Unread 07-14-2009, 05:20 AM
divine g divine g is offline
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Re: Chiron as the Ruler of Virgo

I agree with evolutionmuse (and for the record, it's wise for you to continue to agree to disagree when push comes to shove on this forum)

As a Gemini, ruled by Mercury, I also never understood why it ruled Virgo. I think it just held that place until Chiron was discovered in 1977. I was born in 1978, and I have Mercury conjunct Chiron in my 10th house Taurus. I also read and enjoyed Barbara Hand Clow's book on Chiron very early in my studies. The reason why her theory holds weight is because she studied many actual charts, and even posted them as examples to back up her theory. There were about 50 different charts if I recall corrrectly.

Now, I have experienced, actual painful experiences that have never really left me, and yes, they were ruled by Chiron. My Chironic wound which never really healed occured when the Sun was in Virgo at 8degrees, exactly trining my natal Chiron. I speak from experience, and this was a very real experience. I think that people who can speak from experience would hold more weight than a horary chart to be honest.

My understanding has been that Chiron is a new age planetoid, that's not quite a planet, but is just as important. It rules new age healing, versus traditional healing, and those are 6th house issues. Virgo's perfectionism towards medicine is especially relevant now that we find that alot of "traditional" medicines are actually killing us. (My father is a mental health practitioner, I just realized that's what the picture of mercury/chiron in the 10th describes. He's in charge of giving out prescription drugs like those that may have killed Michael Jackson, Virgo)

Mercury is still associated with Virgo, but as co-ruler to Chiron. It's been my experience that it's only in the sense of words having the ability to wound people deeply, and the power of words to heal. Now this is coming from someone who was born with Mercury/Chiron conjunct, so I've been dealing with this my whole life, I know what I'm talking about. I know there are words that we have all been called at one time or another which have hurt us deeply, and left wounds which never really healed. Whether we were called "fat", or "stupid", or "ugly", or told we'll never make it, the harsh criticism of Virgo comes in the form of Mercury's words, but Chiron has actual rulership of the pain that these words cause, and the wounds which never really heal because they're so deeply imbedded in our subconscious. Words have the power to traumatize people permanently, and I speak from experience.

My analysis, is that Chiron is more real for the younger generation, born since 1977. As evolutionmuse was saying, we are experiencing it, on very deep levels. Our experience holds much more weight than someone who found their keys using a horary chart. If Chiron is the healer, and the 6th house and Virgo deal with health, I truly have a hard time understanding how someone cant see that connection. As a Gemini who was born just months after Chiron was discovered, as it was conjuncting Mercury, I can speak for them both and say they work together as co-rulers, but time will tell that Chiron is the dominant energy here, bringing new age wisdom to traditional forms of healing, including astrology. I could write a book about this, but Ms. Clow already has. If someone can write a book about it, maybe it should be read before disagreeing with it.
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