With all due respect, Horus, I think both modern and traditional western astrology have merit. If you find that the 5th works well for you in the love & romance department, I can hardly argue otherwise. However, with my sun, Venus, and Mercury in the 5th (and Mars, as well, in some house systems) I truly have a different take on what it means.
(I am devoted to my two adult children, and outdoor recreation in wild places is where I feel most rejuvenated.)
An Aquarius with a different take? I wouldn't expect anything else!
That's quite a stellium there, like that of my favorite composer, Herr Mozart! Of course that Aquarian genius was complemented by a hard-working, organized and productive Cap H5 cusp responsible for the immense volume of creative output ina relatively short lifespan. Tolkien had this same cusp with his Sun there too and he also produced an immense volume of creative material - a very organized construction of Middle Earth's history, language and mythology.
I think many people misunderstand the 5th house, putting serious love affairs there, rather than in the 7th. If singles are looking for Mr. Right, that's a 7th house matter.
The 5th arguably is about creativity, but then the other houses are equally about creativity in their respective ways. If I develop a life philosophy, that's creative and a 9th house matter. If a teacher gives a brilliant classroom exercise, that's a third house matter. If an investor finds an ingenious way to make money, that's a second or eighth house matter. Creativity isn't restricted to the 5th house.
What the "CREATION, PROCREATION and RECREATION" trope does is turn the 5th into kind of an everything-nothing house. Like some (but not all) astrologers I see the 8th as more relevant to sexuality. Recreation, yes, for sure-- but then how many lonely singles view dating as a type of recreation similar to playing bridge, doing needlepoint, or kayaking? A romp in the hay with no expectations beyond the "joy of sex"-- sure, that's a 5th house matter. But for dating in the hope that it will lead to a solid relationship puts us in the 7th house.
I can see this from the metaphysical point of view that thought is creative, so what in reality isn't ultimately, even if indirectly? But, I think the modern decription given is a little more focused on creative intent than the others, more pointed toward the products or expressions which 'radiate' from us (the 5th being the natural house for Leo and the Sun) like children or the arts, and perhaps the joy felt in such things.
I have a lot of interest in the historical origins of the thematic content of houses, and in ancient times, there is good evidence that disparate meanings were packed into the same house. The 5th was the house of "good fortune", as you know.
If I were to see any parallel between children and recreation, it wouldn't be the modern self-help trope about releasing one's inner creativity. The key, I think, is that word "rejuvenate" which has the same root as our word juvenile for a child. The 5th house releases our cares and makes us feel fortunate, if well navigated and unafflicted.
I appreciate this insight.
I do not see modern and traditional astrology as irrelevant to one another at all. But that's a different thread topic. I will say that using asteroids vs. essential dignities or whatnot is irrelevant to this thread.
Ohh I never meant to imply that traditional astro is irrelevant, after all its the foundation for modern, so how could it be? My only point was that meanings for things (like the 5th house) are updated in the new paradigm. Now unless my memory is failing, I think I've seen you champion this very idea in one way or another in other threads.
I think we agree that the 5th house relates to the pleasure principle-- what gives us enjoyment. Whether love affairs beyond a casual pleasurable encounter belong here of not is a different matter. With Saturn opposing my 5th house sun and as the traditional ruler of my 5th house, I know something about Saturnine 5th houses, as well. More to the point, for what someone wants out of a dating situation beyond a pleasurable evening, we do have to look at the descendant, which calls up the AC-DC axis.
I always appreciate your thoughts, Waybread (you're one of my favorite posters) but I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. When Jupiter last transited my 5th, a romantic relationship began with... an Aquarius, no less!
She has the same sign ASC as mine so our house cusps are similar and thus Jupiter had entered hers at that time too, so this is just more confirmation that it can mean much more than a random encounter with a prostitute! I will give you this --she was
dressed as a prostitute on the movie set where we met!
Just a great book on this is Jodie Forrest, The Ascendant.
Thanks, I'll need to pick this up. I have her co-authored Skymates volumes I & II and they're interesting. They count the 5th as part of an "arc of intimacy" from the 4th-8th so crucial to house overlays in synastry.
p.s. Interesting that your nickname is Horus. I think he was the original "child" of the 5th house, as there is some evidence that they originated in Egypt. The Babylonians didn't use them.
This is actually an identification with Horus
the Elder, or Heru-Ur, an early
creator god.
