Prediction vs Free Will

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katydid

Well-known member
Oddity said:
Once again, Katydid, I do not terrorise people who come to me for astrological help. Just because you cannot imagine that, it does not make your beliefs true.

I've seen people here PLENTY upset to be told their soul chose to do this to them. Maybe you really believe that. That's fine. A lot of folks don't, and there is no reason nor justification to try to push your belief system onto others. You might find it comforting, but many people do not.

As to the matter of astrological prediction, it works on a stochastic model, just like medical prediction does. That's because humans are not omniscient.

I don't know any astrologers who act the way you're accusing me of acting, and could easily see that I don't do that if you ever read my posts, though I realise that is probably too much to ask.

You don't know anything about predictive astrology. And since you don't, it might be constructive not to assum the worst about predictive astrologers.
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And it is not pushing your belief system to tell others that everything is fated, and there is no free will? 'Everything is foretold.' That is a belief on your part, and not factually based. In my opinion.

Medical prediction allows for unknown factors. You are saying that things are cut and dry, pre-ordained. That is what I am questioning.
 
R

rahu

Banned
Lucedelsole said:
Well then if that's the case, I choose free will- but if what you wrote is true then that *is* free will because you're saying we shape our reality. I sort of also believe that the underlying framework if reality as we know it is incomprehensible. So what is the point in trying to figure it out?
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Good point.
rahu
 
D

david starling

Well-known member
Oddity said:
I've seen you say that to people in this forum who have difficult charts and are going through a difficult time. I'm glad you don't do it to your clients, too, especially since it is your personal belief, not theirs, and it is upsetting people to hear.

I have done a lot of medical astrology in my career. And I have been in this situation, a few times. I would like to think that even from the charts I've read on this forum, you could see that I try to work with people, not terrorise them.

David, I get what you're saying about 'choice', but, God forbid, your kid is dying. Are you going to not help him? I expect that wouldn't be the case. It likely wouldn't for any parent who'd go so far as to consult an astrologer.
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The available choices would be about about where to seek treatment, which course of treatment to follow (including "alternative-medicine")which specific health-practitioner, etc. More money, more options, sadly enough. Also, questions about the efficacy of prayer. Each choice affects the outcome, so it's a dynamic process without a fixed result. VERY tough job for an Astrologer, especially when ALL available choices fail to significantly improve the odds. Don't have the heart for it myself.:sad:
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Lucedelsole said:
Then there is also the fact that there are evil people out there who murder, rape and torture others and it is sickening to believe that this type of thing is predestined. On a more minor level, just about every one of us hurts other people on a regular basis, consciously or unconsciously and this was already thought up?. If something is predestined then that means it was an orginal plan designed by an incomprehensible intelligence aka consciousness. Can you imagine anything so dense, dark, and so destructive originating from this one immaculate consciousness? I don't know.
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I blame it on Night-Saturn.:devil: Which is why the Age of Aquarius is predictably a great improvement. Also why it obviously hasn't yet really begun.
 
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Oddity

Oddity

Well-known member
katydid said:
And it is not pushing your belief system to tell others that everything is fated, and there is no free will? 'Everything is foretold.' That is a belief on your part, and not factually based. In my opinion.

Medical prediction allows for unknown factors. You are saying that things are cut and dry, pre-ordained. That is what I am questioning.
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Strangely enough, I find it quite simple to refrain from discussing my beliefs with clients at all unless they directly ask. Then I tell the truth. But I would not presume to try to change their beliefs.

Umm..where does the idea that it's all foretold come from? Again, you are NOT familiar with traditional astrology or astrologers, please stop attacking by assumption.
 
Kitchy

Kitchy

Banned
rahu said:
Quantum theory has shown your concept of vehicle is obsolete. Matter is not the basis of reality. Quantum theory is based on experimentation. Physicist don't know what the quantum framework is and for that matter there could be asystem of dynamics underlying the quantum system.
Quantum mechanics is counter intuitive to everything we have been programmed to believe by standard model scientific thought. So the various constructs you hypothisize have no reality. one is left only to ones beliefs. Quantum experiments have shown that what you believe causes what you see. If you see free will, it exists. if you don't see free will, it doesn't exist.
rahu
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Rahu - are you a Pisces like Sheldon Cooper? That's some Einsteinian thinking going on there with astrology - Pfizzics. For every action there is a reaction.

Free will is to know and understand the truth of a matter but to disregard it for more selfish concerns, in spite of the astrology teachings. Do you not agree?

Why torment a stubborn earthy sign with 'you will never get your way if you have that attitude" rather than just tell them to let the bull out of the pen and see what happens?
 
K

katydid

Well-known member
Free Will= 'discarding' the truth of the matter? Quite the contrary, in my Neptunian opinion. I take the potential truth of the matter to heart, then look at my various choices of action/inaction. I do not discard the truth.



noun
1.
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
synonyms: self-determination, freedom of choice, autonomy, liberty, independence More


interesting treatise upon Free Will according to Plato:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/

Most philosophers suppose that the concept of free will is very closely connected to the concept of moral responsibility. Acting with free will, on such views, is just to satisfy the metaphysical requirement on being responsible for one's action. (Clearly, there will also be epistemic conditions on responsibility as well, such as being aware—or failing that, being culpably unaware—of relevant alternatives to one's action and of the alternatives' moral significance.) But the significance of free will is not exhausted by its connection to moral responsibility. Free will also appears to be a condition on desert for one's accomplishments (why sustained effort and creative work are praiseworthy); on the autonomy and dignity of persons; and on the value we accord to love and friendship.

Philosophers who distinguish freedom of action and freedom of will do so because our success in carrying out our ends depends in part on factors wholly beyond our control. Furthermore, there are always external constraints on the range of options we can meaningfully try to undertake. As the presence or absence of these conditions and constraints are not (usually) our responsibility, it is plausible that the central loci of our responsibility are our choices, or “willings.”
 
R

rahu

Banned
Lucedelsole said:
Free choice would be the same thing as free will. Within certain perimeters or not, a choice is a choice. I don't understand where you get these perimeters either. How can we have a little free will but not complete free will? We aren't living in our own little bubble- what we do affects everything else.
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as I mentioned we are conditioned by the standard model science of which one dogma is that time is linear and uniform. just because free will exist does not mean it exist all the time.
rahu
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Lucedelsol, if you're using "free will" to mean "freedom to choose", then I think we're in agreement. Choices have consequences--some choices are forbidden by law, for example, while others are not. But you're still just as free to make the choices you have available to you, regardless of consequences. Whether or not it's possible to predict what choices you will make is another matter entirely.
 
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Capricorn2616

Capricorn2616

Well-known member
Does anyone ever think that the ideas of karma and being born inherently flawed are theories fed to the masses to keep them subdued? Why're we constantly reaching for more enlightenment and thinking we're so terrible in the process? Not to say we shouldn't all be our best selves possible, obviously.

I struggle with astrology because I worry that I will start to manifest negative predictions ... On the other hand, it has helped me learn things about myself I wouldn't have known without it. I think it's more of a circular process than a linear one. Astrological predictions affect free will and vice versa. I don't think there is one without the other.

This thread is beyond my wisdom philosophically, so please excuse my response if it was too mundane or irrelevant.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Horary can predict a bad (meaning not wished for) outcome to a specific choice, without affecting one's freedom to make another. It doesn't mean "give up", it means "this won't work, try something else", saving a waste of time and energy. If one is considering a difficult course of action, an encouraging Astrological prediction can be extremely supportive of seeing it through using your own free will. Doesn't mean you couldn't have done it without the prediction; just makes it easier.
Never settle for the right answer to the wrong question!
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Capricorn2616 said:
Does anyone ever think that the ideas of karma
and being born inherently flawed
are theories fed to the masses to keep them subdued?
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the word 'karma' means 'action'
and it is easily understood that action has consequences :smile:

'karma' = the impartial law of consequence

multiple human action is carried out by seven billion people currently on our planet
and the inter-related consequences are complex

Science accepts the law of consequence
and few would consider the scientific Law of Consequence as "a theory fed to the masses to keep them subdued

as for "being born inherently flawed"
it is clear that humans are born with different aptitudes, gifts and understanding
whether that is considered "inerently flawed" or not is a matter of opinion

 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Capricorn2616 said:
Why're we constantly reaching for more enlightenment and thinking we're so terrible in the process?
Not to say we shouldn't all be our best selves possible, obviously.
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Not everyone is 'constantly reaching for more enlightenment'
- and even if some are
people who 'seek enlightenment' are not necessarily thinking they're somehow 'terrible people'
although perhaps some could be
it's dependent on individual perspective

'enlightenment' is apparently a mental state that is accompanied by a peaceful mind
and
in todays unsettled, agitated and chaotic culture
peace of mind is not unexpectedly sought after :smile:
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Capricorn2616 said:
I struggle with astrology
because I worry
that I will start to manifest negative predictions ...
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Worry itself is a negative mindstate :smile:
Capricorn2616 said:
On the other hand, it has helped me learn things about myself I wouldn't have known without it.
I think it's more of a circular process than a linear one.
Astrological predictions affect free will and vice versa.
I don't think there is one without the other.

This thread is beyond my wisdom philosophically,
so please excuse my response if it was too mundane or irrelevant.
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"free will" is limited to circumstances that are self-created by our own action
 
A

AJ Astrology

Well-known member
Capricorn2616 said:
I struggle with astrology because I worry that I will start to manifest negative predictions ...
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Hi Capricorn2616,

Few people's lives are completely perfect. It's normal to have ups and downs. At least with astrology you can predict the downside and then prepare to deal with it in the best way possible.
 
A

AJ Astrology

Well-known member
Lucedelsole said:
Then there is also the fact that there are evil people out there who murder, rape and torture others and it is sickening to believe that this type of thing is predestined. On a more minor level, just about every one of us hurts other people on a regular basis, consciously or unconsciously and this was already thought up?.
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That is the nature of people, and their nature is known through their astrology chart. We can see significant events in their lives that propel them in whatever direction the charts dictate.

Lucedelsole said:
If something is predestined then that means it was an orginal plan designed by an incomprehensible intelligence aka consciousness. Can you imagine anything so dense, dark, and so destructive originating from this one immaculate consciousness? I don't know.
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Maybe there is no "immaculate consciousness." Maybe it's just us and the stars and we really are billion year old carbon. I can see where people have a difficult time reconciling astrology with their religious beliefs, but then predestination is part of many religious belief systems.
 
Capricorn2616

Capricorn2616

Well-known member
Lucedelsole said:
A few years ago I thought I predicted my son's death by transits and progressions to my birth chart. I predicted this happening in the next few years and it would have happened while he is a teenager. I of course started to imagine what it would be like without him- I even concluded that I would most likely commit suicide if what I predicted came true. I started telling myself that if I kept *believing* it would happen, I was going to manifest it. So instead of worryimg, I began praying and envisioning him alive and well into his adulthood. I do think that what you fear, in many cases becomes true.

I forgot to add: there are a lot of things we are safer not knowing. Because you can never be sure that the terrible thing would have happened had you not *believed* it would.
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Lucedelsole, thank you for sharing your experience! That is exactly how I think about it and deal with it as well. For me I wonder .. What if I discover something in my chart that my conscious isn't ready to handle or that I wasn't meant to know yet.
 
Capricorn2616

Capricorn2616

Well-known member
Lucedelsole said:
I understand. I think some things should really be off limits when it comes to prediction. Because if it's true that what we believe manifests, then I just would rather not know certain things. On the other hand, sometimes if we know a certain bad thing is probable (not inevitable) then we can consciously focus on the opposite thing happening. Sort of like what AJ said except instead of just accepting the bad thing and preparing yourself to deal with it, we might be able to actually *change* a probable outcome.
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Exactly. It's kind of a double edged sword.
 
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