Attitude Toward Astrology

greybeard · Oct 5, 2012

So often I notice folks asking how they can fix, overcome, get around what their chart says. One of the reasons I rant so much about us not having free will is that the belief in free will leads us to think we hold the power to change ourselves on some deep and fundamental level.

Seems to me that rather than changing the dire things we discover in our horoscope, we should strive to become ever more fully what it says, what we are and were created to be. Most of us spend many years of our lives fighting with ourselves, trying to transform ourselves into some ideal, but false, image we have created. A junkyard dog is a junkyard dog. If your horoscope says you are junkyard dog, then be the best junkyard dog you can be and stop trying to become a Pekinese. Love yourself, discover yourself.

Duality is the backbone of manifest reality. Destruction brings about construction. The two are one, and each contains the seed of the other. Change (evolution, positive growth) cannot take place before the old structures are torn down. Evil and good are but two faces of the same thing: what is.

The words of the Bhagavad Gita (3:27 ff) give us a guide: “All actions take place in time by the interweaving of the forces of Nature; but the man lost in selfish delusion thinks he himself is the actor. But the man who knows the relation between the forces of Nature and actions, sees how some forces of Nature work upon other forces of Nature and becomes not their slave.” Astrology deals with the forces of Nature, and with time. It describes how, in any given moment, the forces of nature are interweaving. This interweaving of forces acts both within and without ourselves; we can’t change these forces. The only place we really have choice is in whether or not to remain attached to the workings of these forces. If we are attached to them, we are their slaves because they carry us along with them; if we are unattached, we become free.

Moog · Oct 5, 2012

Hmm, the better I astrologise, the more I see people adhering to their allotted astrology in the allotted time periods.

I'm currently doing a Saturn dasha, and it's hard work. I feel that a stoic approach is best.

I could be psychosomatically drawing Saturn type experiences into my life. I don't think so though.

I would be absolutely fascinated to meet a person with an accurate chart and find that they are totally not living their astrology at all. Some think it's possible to transcend the chart in some way. I can't be sure at this stage.

greybeard · Oct 5, 2012

You live your chart, will or no.
The difference lies in either living it in protest, or in joyful acceptance.

JUPITERASC · Oct 5, 2012

Moog said:
I would be absolutely fascinated to meet a person with an accurate chart...

i.e. fwiw IMO that's an individual whose natal chart is based on a totally certain accurate time of birth

Moog said:
...and find that they are totally not living their astrology at all

If any natal chart is based on an inaccurate time of birth and that's what the astrologer is reading - then obviously the astrologer is NOT reading a bona fide natal chart AND the person in question may well 'be living their astrology' after all... IF one could just verify a precise time of birth

Moog said:
...Some think it's possible to transcend the chart in some way. I can't be sure at this stage.

A dandelion cannot transcend its natal chart and instead metamorphose into being a Californian Redwood that lives for five thousand years... just my two cents worth

Peregrine_Moon · Oct 5, 2012

No one can live all of their horoscope all, or even much, of the time. It's so easy to become focused on one or two areas or configurations and to ignore the rest when we're very comfortable with some personality traits or haven't discovered others. Yet even the ways and extent to which we will overcompensate for some things can usually be seen in the chart. Ultimately, though, if something isn't in the chart, the hypothetical potential can't be developed authentically.

wilsontc · Oct 5, 2012

free will and fate, to greybeard

greybeard,

greybeard said:
So often I notice folks asking how they can fix, overcome, get around what their chart says. One of the reasons I rant so much about us not having free will is that the belief in free will leads us to think we hold the power to change ourselves on some deep and fundamental level...we should strive to become ever more fully what it says, what we are and were created to be. Most of us spend many years of our lives fighting with ourselves, trying to transform ourselves into some ideal, but false, image we have created.

Interesting point... Over the years and in discussing this with many astrologers, they have helped me to see that it's not fate OR free will it's fate AND free will. You are fated to be who we are with the energies we have and the challenges we you. You have free will to decide what to do with those energies and how to face those challenges. So just because you have Mars (action, also anger) on your Descendant (self) doesn't mean you have to yell at everyone around you. You could also use that energy to take actions with others instead. The choice is up to you...

Feel free to disagree! :biggrin:

Fatefully free,

Tim

Zuri · Oct 5, 2012

greybeard said:
You live your chart, will or no.
The difference lies in either living it in protest, or in joyful acceptance.

The more that I learn about astrology, the less convinced that I am that we have free will. At best, it's limited free will within the confines of our chart.

However, I can understand why people would protest their charts and not wish to live in "joyful acceptance" of certain things. What if your chart shows that you're a criminal and/or psychopath? Or that you will live paycheck to paycheck, when you desire and have the talent to be a a Wall Street broker? Or your chart states that you'll have many struggles around relationships or making friends, when you desire both? Why do some people have such easy charts (and some of these people don't even deserve their charts, since they waste their good charts) while others have such difficult charts (and don't deserve such charts) despite making good life choices?

I'm one of those people who heavily protests her chart, because I have a very difficult chart. My chart states that having a child will be very difficult for me (Saturn retrograde in 5th House). Meanwhile, there are women out here irresponsibly pumping out child after child with multiple men. My chart also states that I'm resigned to a life of deep unhappiness (Saturn retrograde and peregrine is my chart ruler & drives my entire chart, Pluto square Ascendant, Jupiter opposition Saturn, Neptune square North Node) and persistent trouble in having/keeping friendships and romantic relationships (Venus retrograde opposite Saturn, Moon square Venus, Moon square Saturn, Saturn opposition Neptune). Why would anyone "joyfully accept" such a bad hand? Why do other people deserve happiness and peace (even when they treat people horribly), while others are fated to have lifelong torments? Just doesn't seem fair at all.

Moog · Oct 5, 2012

Zuri said:
The more that I learn about astrology, the less convinced that I am that we have free will. At best, it's limited free will within the confines of our chart.

This is my experience too. It certainly has me questioning.

However, I can understand why people would protest their charts and not wish to live in "joyful acceptance" of certain things. What if your chart shows that you're a criminal and/or psychopath?

Obviously it's natural for people to protest when life is hard, and attempt to escape their fate. Does it help anything though?

It seems to me there's a common thread through Buddhism and Stoicism in the attempt to cultivate 'equanimity'; to have a mind independent of conditioned happiness or conditioned unhappiness.

Moog · Oct 5, 2012

JUPITERASC said:
i.e. fwiw IMO that's an individual whose natal chart is based on a totally certain accurate time of birth

If any natal chart is based on an inaccurate time of birth and that's what the astrologer is reading - then obviously the astrologer is NOT reading a bona fide natal chart AND the person in question may well 'be living their astrology' after all... IF one could just verify a precise time of birth

Yes

It's quite easy to establish a reasonably accurate birth time for anyone who is 'living' their chart. You just need enough life data to figure it out, and a thorough understanding of astrology.

If theoretically, someone was living a life completely independent of their chart, you wouldn't be able to do that. Unless they were living it for a period and at some point 'broke free', you could figure that out.

Interesting thought exercise.

JUPITERASC · Oct 5, 2012

Zuri said:
The more that I learn about astrology, the less convinced that I am that we have free will. At best, it's limited free will within the confines of our chart

Clearly, it is observable that any 'free will' has limitations

Zuri said:
Why would anyone "joyfully accept" such a bad hand? Why do other people deserve happiness and peace (even when they treat people horribly), while others are fated to have lifelong torments? Just doesn't seem fair at all.

fwiw IMO, Either a life is a completely random chance event based on no laws of any kind OR a life is a consequence of immutable universal laws. Accepting personal responsibility for one's actions means it is easier then to accept the consequences of those actions EVEN IF one would prefer not to do that.

The fact that others SEEM to be having a better time than oneself certainly may SEEM 'unfair' - ALTHOUGH perhaps the situation of other people is not a 'unfair' as one assumes. Just my two cents worth

JUPITERASC · Oct 5, 2012

Moog said:
Yes
It's quite easy to establish a reasonably accurate birth time for anyone who is 'living' their chart. You just need enough life data to figure it out, and a thorough understanding of astrology

And plenty of time

Peregrine_Moon · Oct 5, 2012

Fate, destiny, determinism.... it's a murky soup. I think we need to question whose interests are served by notions that the conditions of our lives are somehow pre-set or based on some deal we struck with a supernatural being before we were born. That kind of thinking rapidly becomes a convenient way to blame the poor for their poverty or to absolve the oppressor's abuses. There's a strong current of this in many religions.

While we can only live within the scope of our charts, we also have an abundance of choices and options. This is one of the reasons it's so interesting to look at the charts of celebrities and historical figures. They often have configurations that appear to incline them in one direction or another, but it's also difficult to say why a particular person made the specific choices they made.

Some of us were discussing Jeffery Dahmer's chart last week. It's evident that he was an unhappy person who'd had a rough childhood in many ways. Even so, it's extremely rare for someone to resort to sexual sadism, serial murder and cannibalism as a way to contend with his demons. Others may have chosen to commit suicide instead. Dahmer may have been fated to have the horoscope he had, but that doesn't mean that he was destined to do the things he did.

JUPITERASC · Oct 5, 2012

Peregrine_Moon said:
Fate, destiny, determinism.... it's a murky soup. I think we need to question whose interests are served by notions that the conditions of our lives are somehow pre-set or based on some deal we struck with a supernatural being before we were born. That kind of thinking rapidly becomes a convenient way to blame the poor for their poverty or to absolve the oppressor's abuses. There's a strong current of this in many religions

Exactly. Accepting that one's experiences are the results of one's own choices is a way of acknowledging responsibility for one's actions instead of 'blaming fate' :smile:

greybeard said:
The words of the Bhagavad Gita (3:27 ff) give us a guide: “All actions take place in time by the interweaving of the forces of Nature; but the man lost in selfish delusion thinks he himself is the actor. But the man who knows the relation between the forces of Nature and actions, sees how some forces of Nature work upon other forces of Nature and becomes not their slave.”

Astrology deals with the forces of Nature, and with time. It describes how, in any given moment, the forces of nature are interweaving. This interweaving of forces acts both within and without ourselves; we can’t change these forces. The only place we really have choice is in whether or not to remain attached to the workings of these forces. If we are attached to them, we are their slaves because they carry us along with them; if we are unattached, we become free.

Good analogy

tautomer · Oct 5, 2012

Re: free will and fate, to greybeard

wilsontc said:
Interesting point... Over the years and in discussing this with many astrologers, they have helped me to see that it's not fate OR free will it's fate AND free will. You are fated to be who we are with the energies we have and the challenges we you. You have free will to decide what to do with those energies and how to face those challenges. So just because you have Mars (action, also anger) on your Descendant (self) doesn't mean you have to yell at everyone around you. You could also use that energy to take actions with others instead. The choice is up to you...

this.

Peregrine_Moon said:
Fate, destiny, determinism.... it's a murky soup. I think we need to question whose interests are served by notions that the conditions of our lives are somehow pre-set or based on some deal we struck with a supernatural being before we were born. That kind of thinking rapidly becomes a convenient way to blame the poor for their poverty or to absolve the oppressor's abuses. There's a strong current of this in many religions.

While we can only live within the scope of our charts, we also have an abundance of choices and options. This is one of the reasons it's so interesting to look at the charts of celebrities and historical figures. They often have configurations that appear to incline them in one direction or another, but it's also difficult to say why a particular person made the specific choices they made.

Some of us were discussing Jeffery Dahmer's chart last week. It's evident that he was an unhappy person who'd had a rough childhood in many ways. Even so, it's extremely rare for someone to resort to sexual sadism, serial murder and cannibalism as a way to contend with his demons. Others may have chosen to commit suicide instead. Dahmer may have been fated to have the horoscope he had, but that doesn't mean that he was destined to do the things he did.

And this.

Our chart is who we are, we can't change that. We can't change our core essence. However, we can (and do) work with what we have, and make the absolute best we can of it. At least, those of us with the drive to do so.

I oh so very much do not like the idea of being unable to change who I am and make myself I better person. I mean, hell with all my pluto and 8th house energy it's impossible for me not to. That said, I have learned several times in my life, that you can only deviate so far from your standard operating procedures, lest you cause yourself severe pain. I had to go to a psychologist a few years back because I pushed my mental sets so far out of who I am for who I wanted to be that I started to get very severe somatform symptons appear.

I'll draw a parallel to this. I have been studying MBTI and Jungian personality theories for many years now. I know it very well. One thing that many people feel with it, is that you can grow and change out of your personality. NO you can not. Your type, is your type, and it will stay that way until the day you die. There is nothing you can do about that. What you CAN do, is learn what your weaknesses are, and learn to strengthen them. To work with them, and make the negatives into something positive. It is hard, and takes a ton of work that many individuals are hard pressed to do so.

The way I look at that, and with astrology is this: You have what you have, make the best of it! There are some things you will never be able to get around, but that doesn't mean you can't use your strengths to help bolster those weakness in a different way. What I don't agree with, is indiviuals saying "This is me, I can't make myself better, so just deal with who I am". There is always room for self-improvement, always. Laziness in that regard is something I can't deal with. At least in the sense of being forced to directly interact with individuals with that mindset.

actio · Oct 5, 2012

I think that the less self-aware and developed our consciousness is, the more we insist on having our very own little piece of free will that would let us govern our lives apart from everyone and everything else. The more in touch we get with ourselves and the universe within us, the more in tune we become with the Universal Will at which time the previous notion of free will starts looking paltry and adolescent.

greybeard · Oct 5, 2012

Jesus said, "...let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."

I will repeat the words of the Gita, this time with an emphasized thought:

“All actions take place in time by the interweaving of the forces of Nature; but the man lost in selfish delusion thinks he himself is the actor.

My intention is starting this thread was to open discussion about our attitudes toward astrology -- and ourselves.

We are what we are, and can be nothing else. Our destiny or fate will unfold as it is intended to unfold whether we like it or not. All energies have a "positive" and a "negative" pole. If we have any free will at all, it lies in the choice of which pole we will gravitate toward: the Light or the darkness.

If the Universal Will has decreed "Thou shalt walk alone, apart from thy fellows," then that is how it's going to be. There is a purpose in it. To heal ourselves (and that is what this is all about) we must first accept ourselves as we are at this very moment. Then, having accepted, we must learn to love ourselves (including that big wart on your nose). In accepting and loving, we forgive. (But of course, you can't forgive yourself until you first forgive others. Uh oh. I am the one who needs forgiveness, but I can't get it until I give it...what a bummer.)

The thing is that most of us look in the mirror, see that big wart on our nose, call it bad and want it removed. But maybe the only way to remove it is to remove your nose. Hmmm. We presume to know what is good and bad, yet can't see past the end of our nose. According to the bible the first sin commited by Adam and That Woman was to eat of the fruit of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. If that was the first sin, doesn't that tell us where to look to deal with our sins? Go to the root.

I don't know about the rest of you. But I have found that despite what is a very strong will (in some ways and circumstances), my will has been wholly inadequate in effecting any significant change in myself. I try and try to tell myself I will be (fill in the blank...whatever it is I think I should be and am not, or vice versa) but nothng happens. I remain the same old me I always was, except that now I feel weaker and more frustrated because I failed to will myself to become Hercules. It never seems to occur to me that I was not born Hercules, but Ichabod. So I just keep on willing good old Ichabod to be Hercules, fail, and drag myself down, down, down.

Saturnian · Oct 5, 2012

I am sorry but I strongly disagree with this.I am not sure how much "free will" we really have considering that outside factors affect our life and our interactions(since we cannot really force people to something or not nor should we).
But we do act according to how much freedom we have.In fact why should we live if we believe things are predetermined?There is something which is definitely predetermined and that is death no doubt.I would like to hear what's the point of living a life that has been planned all out(considering it's what you believe).Cool thing if you are one of the privilidged but what if it's a different case?What if one is "cursed" with a bad and horrible chart?You believe that these people should be pleased to live according to that if it does not really make them happy?Even if in real life...their natal chart has little to do with their personality...yet you tell them to live according to it?Why?Who are you?I thought it wasn't even right when parents tried to make you live THEIR dreams cause they never managed to do so.
Not to mention that with that kind of belief anyone could pretty much excuse any type of actions they commit(or crime) and blame it on the chart.
I seriously don't know what sort of religion you come from but no...even if you commit a crime in the following years your chart won't be to be blamed.It'll be you and the choice you made at that time.
I understand that some things are outside of our control(such as an earthquake or the death of a close person) but whether you'll clean your house(something as significant as that) or do your homework and study which can result in building yourself a career(something as important as that) are things that we do control.Einstein didn't become a brilliant scientist cause one day he woke up because of his saturn or whatever return.He had a dream which through hard work he achieved.If i remember right he did drop out of school and what better indication than that shows that you are to be an outcast,a failure and a loser to come?If he accepted things as they come then he wouldn't have become what he is today.

Moog · Oct 5, 2012

Saturnian said:
In fact why should we live if we believe things are predetermined?

Why shouldn't we? If everything is predetermined, you can't do anything about it anyway :lol:

I would like to hear what's the point of living a life that has been planned all out(considering it's what you believe)

Perhaps we have an element of free will in choosing the life before we get into it. *shrug*

I recall in Plato's republic, there's a section about the afterlife, and drawing of lots in order to choose the next incarnation. Fascinated me.

We tend to think from inside the box of human experience. There's a really big, weird reality going on outside that has nothing to do with what or how humans think.

I seriously don't know what sort of religion you come from but no...even if you commit a crime in the following years your chart won't be to be blamed.It'll be you and the choice you made at that time.

Yes, it would make no sense not to punish criminals, as that would be a part of their fate, (part of the experience they have chosen?)

Einstein didn't become a brilliant scientist cause one day he woke up because of his saturn or whatever return.He had a dream which through hard work he achieved.

It's an idea. But was the dream part of his fate, was his hard work caused by a motivation other than his own choice?

greybeard · Oct 5, 2012

I like life, and living it. It's magical. It's fun. It's an adventure; even if it's predestined, I don't know what's going to happen next.
I am quite happy to have a life, predetermined or otherwise. A predetermined life does not take the mystery and awe out of it, and I learn things. I experience feelings: joy, sadness, confusion, hope, love, depression and ecstasy. I have frolicked naked in the rain, gone hungry for days, made love to beautiful women, planted fruit trees in the rich loamy soil, read great books, hugged a little child and made her feel loved. For my part, I see the point in it all.

So you think you have power over your life, are in control?

Think again.

Peregrine_Moon · Oct 6, 2012

greybeard said:
My intention is starting this thread was to open discussion about our attitudes toward astrology -- and ourselves.

We are what we are, and can be nothing else. Our destiny or fate will unfold as it is intended to unfold whether we like it or not. All energies have a "positive" and a "negative" pole. If we have any free will at all, it lies in the choice of which pole we will gravitate toward: the Light or the darkness.

I agree with you, greybeard, about having a choice of the pole to which we will gravitate.

I was thinking about this earlier today when I read a review of Tim Burton's new movie, Frankenweenie. I am just one day older than Tim Burton. Our charts are nearly identical, except for the houses. In fact, if one takes my chart, turns it upside-down and then flips it over 180° degrees, they're the same. The reality is that he has Gemini rising and Aquarius at the Midheaven and his Moon is 19° later than mine. Perhaps the differences in the angles is all it takes to be Tim Burton instead of me.

I'm also a mere five days older than Michael Jackson. If I relocate my chart from the place I was born to the place I've lived most of my life, the biggest difference between our charts is that Michael Jackson's Moon is in Pisces instead of my Capricorn. His Ascendant is only 24' later than mine.

Maybe Tim Burton and Michael Jackson have simply made better use of their charts' potential than I have with mine. Or maybe circumstances are what matter most. I wasn't born a Jackson and I'm Caucasian. I was a musical prodigy, but I had no talented older siblings and my parents weren't interested in the entertainment industry. I wasn't born in California, like Burton was; I can draw and paint, but it wouldn't occur to me to make the kinds of things he makes. For the most part, I make my living with words, not music, paint or film.

All of us have the Sun closely conjunct Pluto and its darkness obviously clings to Burton and Jackson and to me, too. Mercury was retrograde for each of us. Burton's Gemini Ascendant may have helped him express himself with an easier, more sociable flow than my Sagittarius Ascendant; Saturn conjuncts mine, but not his. Neptune sextiles the Sun almost perfectly for Burton and me, but for Jackson, there's a 3° separation. Maybe that's one of the reasons he had the addiction problems that I haven't had.

Perhaps it simply made a difference to be born later in August. Michael Jackson was more successful, wealthier and more influential than Tim Burton, who has certainly done far better than I ever will. The only difficulty with this line of reasoning is that Madonna is only eight days older than me (nine days older than Tim Burton; 13 days older than Michael Jackson). Her Sun conjuncts Pluto, too, but in Leo, which has likely made an enormous difference.

My point is that the four of us have very similar tool kits, but our lives have turned out very differently. Madonna is famous for being Madonna. Tim Burton expresses Pluto's darkness with Neptune's help, on film. Michael Jackson is dead, but not by his own hand. Perhaps we were all destined to have the horoscopes we have. But either what we've done with them may not have been fore-ordained, or it was and somehow I missed the boat or didn't get the memo or just didn't want what may have been within my grasp enough to reach out for it.

Attitude Toward Astrology

greybeard

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Moog

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greybeard

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JUPITERASC

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Peregrine_Moon

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wilsontc

Zuri

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Moog

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Moog

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JUPITERASC

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tautomer

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actio

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