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  #126  
Unread 06-28-2020, 08:24 PM
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Re: Bullying

There are two threads currently about bullying and I can't remember if it was this one or the other one, but there was a post that said those people with charts that do not want to be controlled naturally become outsider's and prone to bullying and this is my experience. Uranus makes a significant aspect in my chart which causes me to 'march to the beat of my own drum,' and then I also have Neptune making a major aspect and this causes me to have weak boundaries and just not want to stand up for myself.

It is a recipe for disaster really although I do believe that Pluto can be the abuser and the abused too and I like someone else's explanation that, say for example with Pluto, you either project being a bully yourself or have it projected back to you. It might be similar to Neptune in that way that it is all about learning boundaries. With Pluto, it is more capable of being an a**hole so people stay away than Neptune is, but I know plenty of Scorpio's who are extremely cowardly when confronted, but can be devious, extremely selfish and manipulative people, who need to be confronted, but are master at evading it.

Anyway, I was bullied by my own family. They felt sorry for themselves and wanted someone to blame even if it meant me becoming depressed and suicidal. It is all projection. I would need to check the charts of them all but from the charts I have seen of them, they do not have Uranus in them. None of them acted like outsider's but were the opposite, concerned with status and appearances, and all had strong Pluto, one with a strong Pluto and Saturn, which might be the being concerned about status part. One of them had Sun conjunct Mars too. I bet you none of them see themselves as the bad guy, even if deep down they feel guilty about it. I survived it and now it is my responsibility to learn forgiveness or I will kill myself. Forgiveness and boundaries.

This is a very serious issue though. It happens all the time and having been bullied by my own family members, I have become very aware of it. Take these famous examples to see how prevalent it is -

It was previously mentioned that Donald Trump said he was bullied by his Father and it was implied that is why he is a bully but do you know the example of Fred Trump Junior? Donald Trump has himself admitted that his Father and him were too hard on Fred and this caused his alcoholism and premature death. His Mother described Fred as a 'dolphin born into a family of sharks.'

I was watching a programme on (UK) TV a couple of months ago called Celebirty SAS: Who Dares Wins. Basically it is the celebrity version of the programme that is a crash course of a few weeks in SAS training. Part of the concept involved being interviewed by former SAS members because they say it is not just about your physical ability but mostly about your mental strength. One of the celebrities in the most recent series was an ex-footballer called 'John Fashanu.' During his interview, he admitted his family and himself bullied and harassed his brother for coming out as gay, even though he had paid him a large amount of money not to but because his brother cam out anyway, he was disowned by the family. I suspect he was not only disowned, which implies being left alone, but was shamed and humiliated until he killed himself. John Fashanu appeared to regret his actions but at the same time you could tell he lacked empathy for his brother and saw his suicide as his brother's mistake.

I have not even deliberately researched celebrity exampled of bullying but have just came across this information randomly and recognized it as a phenomenon because of my own experience with bullying. Not only was I bullied by my family but I have been attacked for years by other people, maybe because I now carry a vulnerability with me forever and they can sense it, or maybe because of my Uranian 'cant be controlled' energy.

The planets are definitely conscious and there is never a blanket answer for what causes bullying or to be bullied because the universe is complicated, but there will definitely be patterns. But on a spiritual level it is connected to ego and being unconscious and those who are bullied stand out because they are more conscious and therefore less attached to their ego. It is a battle between darkness and Light.

I bet you there are millions examples of suicides which are related to bullying. In fact, who are suicidal people but victims of aggression from other people that they can't transcend? Because me being bullied happened from a young age, it has gotten under my skin and I am more sensitive than most people but part of what gives me strength is a few things. One thing is I will transcend my pain and be a voice for those who suicided themselves. And the other is, that bullying made me into a nicer person. I think I would be arrogant and selfish and ignorant without having being bullied, and not wise or deep or old-soul-ish.

I have also been a bully too. It was in primary (elementary) school and everyone was mean to this one girl, and there was a ring leader, but we were all part of it. I ended up becoming friends with her in high school though, as did a few of the other girls. But I also have it in my personality to be dominant, even if it can't stand up to a real threat, but I do have a side of me that will want to dominate. Thank goodness I have been bullied to add some temperance to my personality.

One last thing, we all think we are the hero. It is much harder to see someone who doesn't like you and see their perception of you and accept it. That is very important for shadow work and to help transcend darkness, to see our own darkness. If we all work on this then it may help life the vibration. ISIS, the terrorist organisation, will see America as the enemy who is attacking their country and they are the underdog attempting to stand up for itself, it is even a common theme in American movies to be on the side of the underdog, yet America sees itself as the hero defending itself from outside alien forces.

One last thing, I saw a video recently that has stuck with me. It was of a tiger filmed in a circus jumping through rings of fire, when it suddenly had a seizure and started shaking then went stiff. The ringleader (!) threw buckets of water over it until it regained consciousness and it was led out of the ring. That is bullying too. Bullying/narcissism it is unconscious behaviour, low vibe and dark. The fact it is unconscious means the person is spiritually not 'awake' and unaware of their behaviour. That is another reason to become aware of your darkness. But about the tiger, it is a cruel, cruel world. There is a lot of darkness and bullying happening in this world. Talking about a time when you were briefly bullied is not half as dark as it can get. The examples of celebrity suicide's and animal abuse are just a couple examples of this.


Last edited by Ukpoohbear; 06-28-2020 at 09:24 PM.
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  #127  
Unread 06-28-2020, 10:01 PM
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Smile Re: Bullying

I'm not trying to convince anyone that "I'm right and your wrong" when it comes to my views regarding astrology. I do march to the beat of my own Chart, just like everyone else, and although "you're certainly entitled to your opinion" is often used as a put-down , I don't mean it that way.

Insisting that someone else has "wrong" ideas about how to practice astrology, including things like rulership, allowable Orbs, the meaning of Aspects, etc., Just because they don't match your own, is a type of bullying, imo.

On the other hand, sharing is great, and we may learn something from someone else that we can incorporate into our own astrological paradigm, simply because it "resonates", and fits in well with what we already know and believe.

So, here's what appears to be unusual opinions of my own, just for sharing:

I think of Pluto as a Benefic, rather than as a Malefic.

For me, the two "problem planets" are the usual suspects, Mars and Saturn, when it comes to Malefics. But, even then, it depends on what effect they have on your own Chart. Some can handle them well, some poorly, most somewhere in between.
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  #128  
Unread 06-28-2020, 11:42 PM
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Smile Re: Bullying

Jupiter can contribute to bullying also, when poorly Aspected.

If you look up Zeus, from the ancient Greek religion, you'll find he was quite different from the Roman, "jovial" version. When he gave orders, the other gods and goddesses took notice!
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  #129  
Unread 06-28-2020, 11:51 PM
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Re: Bullying

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
She could have been even MORE of a bully without Mars in Pisces. Don't automatically rule it out as a mitigating factor. I know it is for me, but I also have a lot of Air-signs that help me think things through before I do something I'll regret. How many Mars Pisceans do you know of who are bullies?
Im just saying that in my chart and my MIL's chart and with transits, ive never seen bullying with mars. Depends on the degree. When it comes to abuse where you have no chance in hell - pluto is the one. I mean pluto in capricorn is the first time i experienced real full on abuse out of my control. Uranus was in aries, the sign of the bully, so i find a lot of abuse and bullying occurs with planets in aries. but there's so much to think about. i mean mars is very happy in aries and if your asc ruler is mars then that pretty much means that you're happy with mars in aries too. but in general, i would have to say the worst abuse is pluto. And being angular makes it violent.
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  #130  
Unread 06-28-2020, 11:55 PM
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Re: Bullying

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I was the subject of bullying from preschool, through primary and well into secondary school. I was visibly different in several ways. I was from a poor family, wore hand me downs and flea market finds, wore glasses, had a skin condition... I think what made me a victim though was that I was insecure about all these things, and about myself in general. I was also different in more intangible ways. Interests and eccentricities that made it harder for me to make friends. For example, I'm aromantic and asexual. There are some things that are commonly viewed as universal, especially by teenagers, that I've never experienced. At an age where everyone around me were discovering their sexuality, having their first crush, first date, first kiss... I was just disinterested. Friendships at any age, but perhaps especially at that age, are a lot about sharing experiences, and I wasn't able to do that. I don't feel like I've missed out on anything in life by being aromantic/asexual, but I do recognize that there are big areas of "normal life" that I will never completely understand.

The way out of bullying for me came when I embraced my differences, grew more secure in myself, stopped trying to "be normal". The more boldly myself I was, the less of a victim I became I guess. At around 14 years old I started to very consciously build up my self confidence. I found the things I liked about myself and focused on those until I started to see myself as a beautiful, talented and strong individual. It took many years, but it worked. It's been ages now since anyone tried to bully me.

Astrologically I can find traces of all of the above in my natal chart. I think Saturn is the main culprit for me. It's in a t-square with my Sun and Moon, bringing insecurities and a low self-esteem I guess. Saturn opposite Chiron adds to the picture maybe. I don't have the strongest Mars either, since it's in Cancer, but I think that has a minor influence. In getting out of the bullying I think I've been really helped by all the Neptune in my chart. The power of Neptune's rose tinted glasses is not to be underestimated. Plus a well placed Jupiter, trining Saturn, adding more optimism and confidence. A strong and well aspected Pluto probably doesn't hurt either. Pluto trine Mercury/Mars/MC means I'm not the sort to back down, and I tend to see through people's BS.
Amen. I was just going to say that about embracing differences and then you said it. Very true. That's the hard part. Being proud of being different. I've been in the same boat. Why the **** do ppl outcast those who are different? It's annoying. Let them be.
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  #131  
Unread 06-28-2020, 11:58 PM
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Re: Bullying

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Originally Posted by Ekonomist13 View Post
So apparently, I AM A BULLY, judging by the report I have got and a reprimand in a personal message.

Let us test your theories.

All of you who feel bullied by me, check your composite/sinastry/natal charts and compare to my Mars and Pluto positions.

Those are: Mars in Aquarius 7° and Pluto in Scorpio 22°

If you do find yourself offended and we have some hard aspect between those bodies, please let me know.

Because I am indeed only interested in finding the truth no matter what it takes.

Bullies and bullied will always exist and no karma in the world can prevent that or fix that, because that is how the world works. Even inside of our very own bodies there are bacterias fighting for prevalence, bullying other bacteria and cells.
Yes indeed bullies and abusers and murderers exist because god made it so. God uses bad souls to teach souls lessons and also for karma.

You havent bothered me. Your mars has harmonious aspects with me and your pluto is on my asc .
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  #132  
Unread 06-29-2020, 12:01 AM
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Smile Re: Bullying

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Im just saying that in my chart and my MIL's chart and with transits, ive never seen bullying with mars. Depends on the degree. When it comes to abuse where you have no chance in hell - pluto is the one. I mean pluto in capricorn is the first time i experienced real full on abuse out of my control. Uranus was in aries, the sign of the bully, so i find a lot of abuse and bullying occurs with planets in aries. but there's so much to think about. i mean mars is very happy in aries and if your asc ruler is mars then that pretty much means that you're happy with mars in aries too. but in general, i would have to say the worst abuse is pluto. And being angular makes it violent.
What are the main components of "bullying", as you see it?

Just insulting, belittling, taking your stuff? Or, outright threat of physical assault?
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  #133  
Unread 06-29-2020, 12:11 AM
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Re: Bullying

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What are the main components of "bullying", as you see it?

Just insulting, belittling, taking your stuff? Or, outright threat of physical assault?
Varying degrees obviously depending on the houses - emotional, intellectual and physical. A master abuser is a form of bully and will be clever enough to destroy all three. That is their goal. But then on the other hand it could be as mild as a student constantly focusing on sabotaging everything you have eg your possessions, your friends, pushing into you in the hallway, laughing at you. What all bullies have in common is an obsession with their potential 'victim' and to destroy them the best ways they know how. It's their constant obsession that is dangerous. They think up ideas frequently. They dont give the victim a break. It gives the bully immense pleasure to create discomfort for the victim. So yeah, a mild version of a bully would be in the school yard where the victim can escape by staying home or changing schools or talking to principal etc. The more severe bully cases which lead to master abusers is when the bully can take it further because the victim is trapped and they cant leave.
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  #134  
Unread 06-29-2020, 12:11 AM
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Smile Re: Bullying

Pluto in Capricorn triggers Saturn. Ura in Aries triggers Mars. Those are always my two suspects. They're both very jealous and protective of their own domiciles. Saturn does not want Pluto "invading its space", and same for Mars regarding Ura.

Last edited by david starling; 06-29-2020 at 12:13 AM.
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  #135  
Unread 06-29-2020, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Abby83 View Post
Varying degrees obviously depending on the houses - emotional, intellectual and physical. A master abuser is a form of bully and will be clever enough to destroy all three. That is their goal. But then on the other hand it could be as mild as a student constantly focusing on sabotaging everything you have eg your possessions, your friends, pushing into you in the hallway, laughing at you. What all bullies have in common is an obsession with their potential 'victim' and to destroy them the best ways they know how. It's their constant obsession that is dangerous. They think up ideas frequently. They dont give the victim a break. It gives the bully immense pleasure to create discomfort for the victim. So yeah, a mild version of a bully would be in the school yard where the victim can escape by staying home or changing schools or talking to principal etc. The more severe bully cases which lead to master abusers is when the bully can take it further because the victim is trapped and they cant leave.
So, the key word is "tormentor".
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  #136  
Unread 06-29-2020, 12:21 AM
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Re: Bullying

My belief of bullies and abusers is far more spiritual though. I believe that for many victims it can start off as the more physical violent form of abuse in one life, depending on karma and lessons, and emotional abuse in another life - and ill give my story of MIL and i as an example. In past lives me and my MIL were killing each other. So it was physical violence. Then there was a life where the intellectual side was damaged when i was an orphan, in addition to being killed. In this life im experiencing MOSTLY emotional abuse. She still broke my possessions but she didnt torture me physically if that makes sense. So there's a cycle, a karmic cycle with abuse. It goes from physical in one life, intellectual in another, and emotional in another. Sometimes more than one form of abuse is involved in a life. The severity varies. So yes, they are all a form of bullying that leads to different extremes.
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Unread 06-29-2020, 12:26 AM
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Re: Bullying

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So, the key word is "tormentor".
Either way they are all abusers at varying degrees. A bully is a milder form of a severe abuser meaning that they havent yet gotten to the stage of killing you or having you killed or even in a position where you could die. Some abusers may realise on a soul (subconscious) level that if they kill you they will get their karma like they did in a past life. But to be honest, i see abusers struggling very much when it comes to holding back their abuse once they're on a roll. Bullies, abusers, tormentors, they all have the same strategies when it comes to their victims.
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  #138  
Unread 06-29-2020, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Abby83 View Post
My belief of bullies and abusers is far more spiritual though. I believe that for many victims it can start off as the more physical violent form of abuse in one life, depending on karma and lessons, and emotional abuse in another life - and ill give my story of MIL and i as an example. In past lives me and my MIL were killing each other. So it was physical violence. Then there was a life where the intellectual side was damaged when i was an orphan, in addition to being killed. In this life im experiencing MOSTLY emotional abuse. She still broke my possessions but she didnt torture me physically if that makes sense. So there's a cycle, a karmic cycle with abuse. It goes from physical in one life, intellectual in another, and emotional in another. Sometimes more than one form of abuse is involved in a life. The severity varies. So yes, they are all a form of bullying that leads to different extremes.
Saturn is lord of karma. And, Mars can function as Saturn's "enforcer".
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  #139  
Unread 06-29-2020, 12:29 AM
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Re: Bullying

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Saturn is lord of karma. And, Mars can function as Saturn's "enforcer".
Im sorry but it's more than just saturn and mars. 12th house has the key to the soul. And the nodes tell a lot too.
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Unread 06-29-2020, 01:32 AM
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Re: Bullying

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Seriously? My mother in law is a MASTER ABUSER and she has mars in pisces conjunct sun. And her mars has harmonious aspects...
A couple of things here... Mars in conj. to another personal planet is by no means a 'harmonious' aspect, so that is the first thing your mother-in-law has... a not-harmonious-aspect from Mars to her Sun.

Secondly, because it is Pisces Mars does not mean it cannot bully. It just operates differently in Pisces- a water sign. She might not be an outright lund, feisty or verbally abusive type. However, a person with this aspect could be a scheming and manipulative person.

I would not want to comment further without seeing the charts, but I did want to jump in there and say the afore bit about Mars.
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Unread 06-29-2020, 01:35 AM
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Re: Bullying

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...I think of Pluto as a Benefic, rather than as a Malefic.

For me, the two "problem planets" are the usual suspects, Mars and Saturn, when it comes to Malefics. But, even then, it depends on what effect they have on your own Chart. Some can handle them well, some poorly, most somewhere in between.
I think Pluto on someone's Sun for instance can make one very stubborn and even obsessive. These people can take to extremism.

Plu on someone's Moon can also make people emotionally obsessive.

Plu is no innocent lamb.
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Unread 06-29-2020, 05:04 AM
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Re: Bullying

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Originally Posted by aquarius7000 View Post
A couple of things here... Mars in conj. to another personal planet is by no means a 'harmonious' aspect, so that is the first thing your mother-in-law has... a not-harmonious-aspect from Mars to her Sun.

Secondly, because it is Pisces Mars does not mean it cannot bully. It just operates differently in Pisces- a water sign. She might not be an outright lund, feisty or verbally abusive type. However, a person with this aspect could be a scheming and manipulative person.

I would not want to comment further without seeing the charts, but I did want to jump in there and say the afore bit about Mars.
That's my point. Mars in pisces can indeed be a bully. That's the point i was trying to get across. And yes, mars conjunct sun is not a harmonious aspect. The other aspects are though.
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Unread 06-29-2020, 05:06 AM
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Re: Bullying

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I think Pluto on someone's Sun for instance can make one very stubborn and even obsessive. These people can take to extremism.

Plu on someone's Moon can also make people emotionally obsessive.

Plu is no innocent lamb.
Im someone with pluto 10 degrees away from my sun and i must say i can be obsessive and stubborn, but i still do not bully.
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Unread 06-29-2020, 05:24 AM
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I think Pluto on someone's Sun for instance can make one very stubborn and even obsessive. These people can take to extremism.

Plu on someone's Moon can also make people emotionally obsessive.

Plu is no innocent lamb.
In the ancient Greek religion, Pluto was one of the 3 gods with "Earthly Authority", bestowed upon them by Gaea, the goddess who personified the Earth. Zeus was sky-god, Poseidon, sea-god, and Pluto ruled anything below the Earth's crust.

Both Poseidon/Neptune and Pluto were of the deep realms, and I see their influence as being deep psychologically-speaking. They aren't focused on the material world, like Zeus/Jupiter and Cronos/Saturn.

Pluto is about the Soul, and its journey after death, aided by Hermes/Mercury. Transformations are ruled by Plu.

I bring the ancient religious pantheons, mostly Sumerian, Egyptian, and Greco-Roman, into my interpretation of rulership characteristics, with a focus on Greco-Roman. I realize that not everyone does, but it helps me with my readings. As waybread often says, "It works for me.".
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Unread 06-29-2020, 06:46 AM
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Seriously? My mother in law is a MASTER ABUSER and she has mars in pisces conjunct sun. And her mars has harmonious aspects. I cant remember the name of the particular abuse asteroid im thinking of but she has it exact on her ascendant. But what she does have is difficult aspects to pluto. Another thing I look at is the planets that represent childhood that could affect the subconscious conditioning of a person - like all that inner child stuff. With my MIL her mercury (childhood years) is heavily aspected with pluto and moon and her venus (teenage years) is opposite Saturn in virgo. So her whole young years were pretty hard. She never really grew up past the teenage years and she is constantly acting from a place of the immature high school bully without seeing the consequences of her actions. Her adult years (sun conjunct mars) were very strong and she's holding onto it for dear life, as the control freak she is cos she never ever wants to feel like the kid she was again.
Algol? I think your MIL is a Taurus ascendant if I remember correctly. She literally ‘loses her head’ with women.
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Unread 06-29-2020, 06:50 AM
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Re: Bullying

David Starling’s explanation makes sense to me. Jupiter and Saturn are material and Pluto is psychological. That’s not to say Pluto still cannot be involved in abuse, but the reasons for it/the type of bullying is psychological, which explains why it seems far worse because it penetrates deeper. If the Pluto person is unevolved then they could be psychologically prone to tormenting someone, in order to deal with their own issues ie projection.

I also like the word ‘tormenting’ to describe the psychological attack towards someone’s soul. To me, the word ‘bullying’ implies a shallower, more material, mild form of harassment. True harassment seems more Plutonian and will effect someone psychologically, which will give them mental illness and could even destroy them which, as Abby pointed out, is their end goal.

I’m reminded of the cop and George Floyd. There was a lot going on psychologically. It was about harassment/domination. Domination seems more Mars and Saturn territory though. Harassment is Pluto’s forté.

Last edited by Ukpoohbear; 06-29-2020 at 07:05 AM.
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  #147  
Unread 06-29-2020, 07:32 AM
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The two hardest to handle well in one's Chart configuration, are first, Saturn, second, Pluto. But, Saturn handled badly is the cause of most of the world's materialistic problems, when coupled with Mars.

Last edited by david starling; 06-29-2020 at 07:35 AM.
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Unread 06-29-2020, 10:47 AM
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Re: Bullying

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Originally Posted by Ukpoohbear View Post
Algol? I think your MIL is a Taurus ascendant if I remember correctly. She literally ‘loses her head’ with women.
YASSSSS!!!!! That's it. Well done. And yes, you can see in her chart she doesnt think much of the men in her life and she's a nasty pasty to women too.
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  #149  
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Re: Bullying

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
The two hardest to handle well in one's Chart configuration, are first, Saturn, second, Pluto. But, Saturn handled badly is the cause of most of the world's materialistic problems, when coupled with Mars.
Oh come on. Saturn aspects are shorter and nowhere near as abusive. Just lessons.
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Re: Bullying

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Originally Posted by Ukpoohbear View Post
David Starling’s explanation makes sense to me. Jupiter and Saturn are material and Pluto is psychological. That’s not to say Pluto still cannot be involved in abuse, but the reasons for it/the type of bullying is psychological, which explains why it seems far worse because it penetrates deeper. If the Pluto person is unevolved then they could be psychologically prone to tormenting someone, in order to deal with their own issues ie projection.

I also like the word ‘tormenting’ to describe the psychological attack towards someone’s soul. To me, the word ‘bullying’ implies a shallower, more material, mild form of harassment. True harassment seems more Plutonian and will effect someone psychologically, which will give them mental illness and could even destroy them which, as Abby pointed out, is their end goal.

I’m reminded of the cop and George Floyd. There was a lot going on psychologically. It was about harassment/domination. Domination seems more Mars and Saturn territory though. Harassment is Pluto’s forté.
But if pluto is in an angular house it IS physical.
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