Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable??

JayM

JayM

Well-known member
I know that but what your saying in response to what I am saying does not make sense and just keep spining words around. My senario was just an example to show that there is no right or wrong in this case.

You keep saying that you dont have to right to kill, even when you have no other choice to defend yourself, but what would you do if you had no other choice in that unfortunate situation?
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
JayM said:
I know that but what your saying in response to what I am saying does not make sense and just keep spining words around.

You keep saying that you dont have to right to kill, even when you have no other choice to defend yourself, but what would you do if you had no other choice in that unfortunate situation?
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JayM, IMO killing people is wrong. If you disagree with me then you are entitled to disagree with me... it is not unusual for people to have different opinions :smile:
 
eedwards

eedwards

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
I also respect your point of view to which you are entitled:smile:
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I am trying to give you a very real world example to compare against your very Shangri-La ideas.

JUPITERASC said:
Nevertheless, you have no idea of my own personal experiences in relation to the topic of this thread
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I have shared my personal experience in relation to this topic...could you please share yours?
 
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N

Neptune Rising

Well-known member
JA, you basically asked me to explain my viewpoint, then TOLD me the way that the moral ground stands, I thought a conversation was a two way process (?)... where BOTH or all parties consider each others opinions - this appears to be something quite different. The title of your thread may as well be, "all forms of killing is morally wrong, no matter what lead up to it!" :)
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
eedwards said:
I have shared my personal experience in relation to this topic...could you please share yours?
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eedwards you have made the personal decision to post full details of your personal experiences in order to explain your completely understandable feelings regarding the “right” to kill. I have said that I respect your feelings and understand why you think self defense justifies killing. I have also said that I nevertheless am entitled to my own opinions as well and IMO every reader of and contributor to this thread is entitled to post their opinions without having to provide justification by specifically publishing events from their own personal lives. We all have our own opinions and we all at times disagree with each other and we are all entitled to make personal choices in life. I shall not refer to any personal experiences I may or may not have had in relation to this kind of incident

eedwards said:
I am trying to give you a very real world example to compare against your very Shangri-La ideas.
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Thank you eedwards, I appreciate that this subject matter is clearly an emotive one - not only for you, but also for anyone who has suffered the loss of a person close to them - when that person became an innocent victim of a killer.

Regarding your contention re: “Shangri La ideas” versus “real world examples” I refer you to a very real world example, currently in the news.

Five weeks ago 17 year old Trayvon Martin was followed and then shot and killed by Neighborhood Watchman George Zimmerman. There is evidence in form of 911 audio tapes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOpGAOXL5Uk&feature=related as well as police surveillance video of George Zimmerman following his arrest. The police surveillance video has been obtained by news media and enhanced by experts and the results appear to contradict George Zimmerman's claim of “self defense” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPAkrsSJqSE

Neptune Rising said:
JA, you basically asked me to explain my viewpoint, then TOLD me the way that the moral ground stands,
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Neptune Rising, what I did was ask you to clarify your remarks and to clarify whether or not you are saying that killing is moral IF the killer kills in self defense. I asked because you said clearly that murder is immoral - but then you did not say clearly whether or not your view is that killing someone in self defense is immoral as well.
Neptune Rising said:
I thought a conversation was a two way process (?)... where BOTH or all parties consider each others opinions - this appears to be something quite different. The title of your thread may as well be, "all forms of killing is morally wrong, no matter what lead up to it!" :)
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But that is not the title of my thread Neptune Rising! – the title of my thread is: "Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable?"

Nevertheless Neptune Rising, I thank you for drawing attention to the fact that the topic of this thread appears to have digressed/diverted, however - since the matter has now been raised and if we are all in agreement - then perhaps you (or anyone who would like to discuss the matter further) could post an alternative topic with the title you have suggested, so that this thread can then continue to focus on the topic of the thread. I originally started this thread with the question: "Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable?":smile:
 
Carris

Carris

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
eedwards you have made the personal decision to post full details of your personal experiences in order to explain your completely understandable feelings regarding the “right” to kill. I have said that I respect your feelings and understand why you think self defense justifies killing. I have also said that I nevertheless am entitled to my own opinions as well and IMO every reader of and contributor to this thread is entitled to post their opinions without having to provide justification by specifically publishing events from their own personal lives. We all have our own opinions and we all at times disagree with each other and we are all entitled to make personal choices in life. I shall not refer to any personal experiences I may or may not have had in relation to this kind of incident
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JUPITERASC said:


Thank you eedwards, I appreciate that this subject matter is clearly an emotive one - not only for you, but also for anyone who has suffered the loss of a person close to them - when that person became an innocent victim of a killer.

Regarding your contention re: “Shangri La ideas” versus “real world examples” I refer you to a very real world example, currently in the news.

Five weeks ago 17 year old Trayvon Martin was followed and then shot and killed by Neighborhood Watchman George Zimmerman. There is evidence in form of 911 audio tapes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOpGAOXL5Uk&feature=related as well as police surveillance video of George Zimmerman following his arrest. The police surveillance video has been obtained by news media and enhanced by experts and the results appear to contradict George Zimmerman's claim of “self defense” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPAkrsSJqSE


Neptune Rising, what I did was ask you to clarify your remarks and to clarify whether or not you are saying that killing is moral IF the killer kills in self defense. I asked because you said clearly that murder is immoral - but then you did not say clearly whether or not your view is that killing someone in self defense is immoral as well.

But that is not the title of my thread Neptune Rising! – the title of my thread is: "Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable?"

Nevertheless Neptune Rising, I thank you for drawing attention to the fact that the topic of this thread appears to have digressed/diverted, however - since the matter has now been raised and if we are all in agreement - then perhaps you (or anyone who would like to discuss the matter further) could post an alternative topic with the title you have suggested, so that this thread can then continue to focus on the topic of the thread. I originally started this thread with the question: "Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable?":smile:
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Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable?"

Yes in certain circumstances it is. For example: To save people from a tyrant when only killing will stop the tyranny and torture, nothing else - and killing is the only option available. What if police help and justice courts are not available?

But when you speak of death penalty - I think death is too easy a punishment.

I also believe in this:
"We have no right to abruptly halt peoples' lives before they have lived out their karma. They will suffer greater retribution if we let them live. When they die and go to the next dimension, they will suffer there. They will be left in a very restless state and they will be sent back, but their lives will be very hard. They will have to make up to those people that they hurt for the injustices that they did against them.” Many Lives Many Masters - Dr Brian Weiss

 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Neptune Rising said:
JA, i beg to differ.... but sometimes, I find, it best not to flog the preverbial dead horse :)
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Neptune Rising, what you clearly consider are 'proverbial flogging a dead horse' opinions relate to comments that digress from the topic of this thread: and those issues can always be discussed on an alternative thread by anyone who decides to do that:smile:
Carris said:
Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable?"

Yes in certain circumstances it is. For example: To save people from a tyrant when only killing will stop the tyranny and torture, nothing else - and killing is the only option available. What if police help and justice courts are not available?

But when you speak of death penalty - I think death is too easy a punishment.
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Carris, killing tyrants does not save people from continued tyranny and torture - Syria is a current example. Iraq is an ongoing example where in order to 'save people from a tyrant' more than one million innocent civilians including babies, pregnant women, old women and old men have been killed during the Iraq war.

Not only has the infrastructure of entire cities been destroyed - but also, what was once one of the most envied health services in the world has been obliterated.

The depleted uranium bombs dropped on Iraq continue causing birth deformities and cancer effects within the population. Now Iraq plans to sue US and UK over these effects on the local civilian population http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAy_lm78sWU

IMO "saving other countries from tyrants" is a transparent excuse for invading another nation in order to secure unabated oil supplies

Carris said:
I also believe in this:
"We have no right to abruptly halt peoples' lives before they have lived out their karma. They will suffer greater retribution if we let them live. When they die and go to the next dimension, they will suffer there. They will be left in a very restless state and they will be sent back, but their lives will be very hard. They will have to make up to those people that they hurt for the injustices that they did against them.” Many Lives Many Masters - Dr Brian Weiss
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I agree that we have no right to abruptly halt people's lives. Dr Brian Weiss is emphasizing that there is no escape from the consequences of our actions. I also agree with Mark's post:
Mark said:
General Address:

In a karmic context, it doesn't really matter why you kill. Once you kill, you are a killer and you will be visited by a killer's karma.

"Self defense" is an human justification for doing something that would otherwise be obviously wrong.

We all want the freedom to act selfishly in certain situations (self defense, raising our own children, et cetera), so we create loopholes in the law to allow us to be selfish in these circumstances.

Therefore, legality has nothing to do with right or wrong in this context. Karma will work the same way, regardless of human law.
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Carris

Carris

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
Carris, killing tyrants does not save people from continued tyranny and torture - Syria is a current example. Iraq is an ongoing example where in order to 'save people from a tyrant' more than one million innocent civilians including babies, pregnant women, old women and old men have been killed during the Iraq war.
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I wasn't talking in terms of countries/governments killing tyrants. I was speaking from an individual's perspective - if I was there as a citizen (or even in a much smaller group) suffering under a tyrant and I know that the police and courts can't/won't help - and if the only choice to stop the tyranny was to kill - and all I had was some home-made weapon that would kill - then I would do it - and feel very proud about it! In fact I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I did not do it. It would be absolutely completely ethical and moral to me.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Carris said:
I wasn't talking in terms of countries/governments killing tyrants. I was speaking from an individual's perspective - if I was there as a citizen (or even in a much smaller group) suffering under a tyrant and I know that the police and courts can't/won't help - and if the only choice to stop the tyranny was to kill - and all I had was some home-made weapon that would kill - then I would do it - and feel very proud about it! In fact I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I did not do it. It would be absolutely completely ethical and moral to me.
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Thanks for clarifying Carris - Nevertheless, your comment seems to be in opposition to your previous statement of agreement with Dr Brian Weiss :smile:

Also if you disapprove of killers why become a killer yourself?
Carris said:
Is The Premeditated Killing of any Human Being Ethical and/or Morally Justifiable?"
I also believe in this:
"We have no right to abruptly halt peoples' lives before they have lived out their karma. They will suffer greater retribution if we let them live. When they die and go to the next dimension, they will suffer there. They will be left in a very restless state and they will be sent back, but their lives will be very hard. They will have to make up to those people that they hurt for the injustices that they did against them.” Many Lives Many Masters - Dr Brian Weiss
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N

Neptune Rising

Well-known member
The horse is very much dead. However, JA, you also need to alliw people to express their views. If you put a question up for debate, expecta debate. It does appear you already made up your mind when you put this question out there. When people express a view that differs from yours, you TELL them how it is without considering what they expressed. That is not debate. :)

Let the debate continue...
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Neptune Rising said:
The horse is very much dead. However, JA, you also need to alliw people to express their views. If you put a question up for debate, expecta debate. It does appear you already made up your mind when you put this question out there. When people express a view that differs from yours, you TELL them how it is without considering what they expressed. That is not debate. :)

Let the debate continue. ..
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Your statement applies equally to other posters on this thread Neptune Rising IMO

Of course, let's continue our discussion! :smile:

Carris, as I just asked you, - if killing is disapproved of - then why become a killer yourself?
 
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Carris

Carris

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
Thanks for clarifying Carris - Nevertheless, your comment seems to be in opposition to your previous statement of agreement with Dr Brian Weiss :smile:

Also if you disapprove of killers why become a killer yourself?
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:smile: Actually, Dr Brian Weiss' book also says that if I don't use my free will to help others and if I don't stand up for myself, then I accumulate very negative karma! It is our duty and responsibility to help out fellow souls on earth and also improve our own lives. So I disapprove of killers but not heroes.

This quote is also important:
“You should check your vices while on earth. If you do not, you carry them over with you to another life. Only we can rid ourselves of the bad habits that we accumulate when we are in a physical state. If you choose to fight and not to rid yourself, then you will carry them over into another life. Only when you decide that you are strong enough to master the external problems, then you will no longer have them in your next life. " Many Lives Many Masters - Dr Brian Weiss

In his books, there are many accounts of people (in fact Dr Brian Weiss himself) who did not stand up against tyranny in their past lives - so result was that they had to CONTINUE experiencing tyranny in life after life until they learned to stand up for themselves.
 
MaeMae

MaeMae

Banned
the whole argument of self-defense is extraneous in this thread, as OP title clearly uses word "premeditated"
however, at least here in u.s. can be a cultural or gender bias that plays out under the guise of self-defense that could be considered premediated.
 
princess valhalla

princess valhalla

Well-known member
Exactly Carris. For instance, a person might be living out a vicious cycle from lifetime to lifetime of becoming a victim in some form or another. It would then be very important to break that cycle in this life, empower yourself and break free from that karma.
 
tikana

tikana

Well-known member
MaeMae said:
the whole argument of self-defense is extraneous in this thread, as OP title clearly uses word "premeditated"
however, at least here in u.s. can be a cultural or gender bias that plays out under the guise of self-defense that could be considered premediated.
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MaeMae (only talking to MaeMae )

Yes and No. lets say you leave something and someone else walks by and that things whatever kills him/her/them. is that premeditated? NO! it is an accident
but if someone breaks into your house threatens you or whoever, your animal instinct kicks in, in a split second you make a decision to take the person out. In the eyes of the law, it is not premeditated but if you think about it on a logical side, it is premeditated. You made a decision to save your/your love one(s)'s life. There is no way in hell legally self defence can be turned into premeditated murder.

shrug
T
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Carris said:
:smile: Actually, Dr Brian Weiss' book also says that if I don't use my free will to help others and if I don't stand up for myself, then I accumulate very negative karma! It is our duty and responsibility to help out fellow souls on earth and also improve our own lives. So I disapprove of killers but not heroes.

This quote is also important:
“You should check your vices while on earth. If you do not, you carry them over with you to another life. Only we can rid ourselves of the bad habits that we accumulate when we are in a physical state. If you choose to fight and not to rid yourself, then you will carry them over into another life. Only when you decide that you are strong enough to master the external problems, then you will no longer have them in your next life. " Many Lives Many Masters - Dr Brian Weiss

In his books, there are many accounts of people (in fact Dr Brian Weiss himself) who did not stand up against tyranny in their past lives - so result was that they had to CONTINUE experiencing tyranny in life after life until they learned to stand up for themselves.
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Dr Brian Weiss is human and can make errors as we all can. Dr Brian Weiss is not urging everyone to kill everyone else Carris!


The act of killing incurs the karma of having killed. Let's all learn self-defense classes and learn to stand up for ourselves without killing people – thus avoiding the inevitable consequences of killing :smile:
 
eedwards

eedwards

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
Let's all learn self-defense classes and learn to stand up for ourselves without killing people – thus avoiding the inevitable consequences of killing :smile:
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And be sure to take the tooth fairy with you on the way to have tea with the queen.

JA, although your thoughts on this matter sound "ideal" they are, in no way, close to "reality". Everyone is not going to take self defense classes in order to prevent themselves from killing someone. Even if they have taken self defense classes it is no guarantee that they will not have to kill someone in order to protect their, or their loved ones, lives.

The reality is this...there are bad people in this world that do bad things to good people. Sometimes, the only way to stop this from happening is by killing the bad person. If you don't stop this from happening you are allowing that bad person to go on and continue to do more bad things to good people. How is that for karma?

Regarding the death penalty... we don't make that decision. The murderer made the decision to end his own life when he took the life of another. He was aware of the consequence of his actions but continued to follow through. You could almost call it a suicide.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
eedwards said:
Regarding the death penalty... we don't make that decision. The murderer made the decision to end his own life when he took the life of another. He was aware of the consequence of his actions but continued to follow through. You could almost call it a suicide.
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eedwards regarding the death penalty... paying someone to kill is a contract killing and that is illegal.

Furthermore the person being paid to do the contract killing is then a killer

Some people may take self defense classes - it is a good idea to do so in order to potentially save two lives - your own life as well as the life of the person you would have otherwise killed :smile:
 
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