Calculating elements

Holist

Well-known member
When looking at the element breakdown in the chart, do you consider the angles (ascendant, descendant, midheaven, etc.), or just the planets?

For example if someone has no planets in air but they have midheaven and ascendant in air signs, would you consider them to have some air element after all?
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
Planets in elements primarily -- the older 7 planets especially. Ascendant is very important here as well.

Sometimes it's easy to see the dominant element -- my chart for instance with 5 planets in fire as well as ascendant in the same element makes it a no brainer. Others won't be so clear cut. Are you interested in your elementary balance or is this just a general question? For your example, I'd say air is present only because the ascendant is placed in that element.
 

david starling

Well-known member
I use the Asc and the MC. But don't use Asc AND Desc. Just the Asc, in my opinion. And the MC.

All right, let's get complicated--what about 1 degree to 0 degree Cusps? Go to half-and-half Element values? And, if a Sign's ruler is in that Sign, should its Element be given more weight?
 
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katydid

Well-known member
All right, let's get complicated--what about 1 degree to 0 degree Cusps? Go to half-and-half Element values? And, if a Sign's ruler is in that Sign, should its Element be given more weight?

For zero degree angles, I just use the element of the sign showing on the chart. Zero Scorpio is still water, not half air, half water, in my opinion.

I do give an extra point for the ruler of the Asc. :happy:
 

Holist

Well-known member
The question comes from looking at someone's chart who has no planets in Air, but his MC is in Gemini. He has had a very intellectual history with academia (he has his PhD) but he doesn't seem to understand the nuances in social interaction between people in the way that Air connects people. His rising sign is Virgo so he has the power of analysis, which I feel is what has given him insight into people... but his social skills are all studied, not intuitive. Know what I mean? Even in our conversation about his chart, he was reactive to certain words and terms I used, wanting to redefine them quickly, instead of trusting my underlying meanings. Very semantic.

About the 00 or 01 degree signs. To me the sign either is, or isn't. There are no halves. This same guy I'm talking about is born with Sun in Cancer, but it's at 29 degrees Cancer. He claims that he is "cusp" and he relates to Leo, but his Jupiter is in Leo in the 11th house which may be where he derives that interpretation from. However, to me he comes across as 100% Cancer with a strong Virgo analytical side and appreciation for aesthetics. Whenever someone says they're cusp I just don't buy it, and usually they are drawing on traits elsewhere in the chart.
 
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graay ghost

Well-known member
I count the ASC and MC. The ASC is pretty weighty, but I don't consider the MC to have much weight. If the ASC or the MC are on cusps of signs, one might want to split the difference between elements because it's unlikely that a birth time is so extremely accurate and the axes move so fast.
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
When you guys do the element breakdown do you use points or something??

Sun = 2
Moon = 2
Mercury = 1
Venus = 1
Mars = 1
Jupiter = 0.5
Saturn = 0.5
ASC = 2
Midheaven = 1
Planet ruler = +1 to whatever the ruling planet is

Does that seem like a good point breakdown??
 

waybread

Well-known member
Holist, I agree with you. I think a planet is in one sign or the other, down to the minute and second. Obviously with a rounded birth time, you might get some confusion. But the signs are so different from the neighbours.

I think the ascendant is a major factor, but the MC really deals with public image and vocation in life, which may or may not be so critical for the person. I tend to treat the DC and IC just like house cusps. Unless I'm using whole signs houses.

Usually if someone says he doesn't feel like his sun sign, he's got other stuff going on in his chart. I'd look at the house ruler of the sun's house, aspects to the sun, and planets in the house that he does feel like.

Also, many people have only the sketchiest, pop-schlock notion of what a sun sign is supposed to be like. Jupiter is normally the "feel good" planet, so it is easy to gravitate to matters of Jupiter's sign and house.

Houses are different, because house cusps will vary depending on the system used.

Air signifies mental, intellectual, ideological. Air people (of which I am one, with 5 planets in air signs) enjoy ideas for their own sake. They don't require a practical application. Air may or may not be intuitive, as water is the element of empathy and sympathy.

Where is this man's Mercury? Mercury in earth tends to be practical and applied. Mercury in fire is guided by enthusiasm and initiative. Mercury in water has an emotional overtone.

Sometimes people missing an element tend to compensate by relying on some other aspect of their charts. For example, having a lot of air and fire in my chart meant that I have only one planet in water, Mars; who is not Mr. Touchy-Feely. During the latter part of my career, I had to do a fair bit of trouble-shooting for people, often on a one-on-one basis. I recognized that I had limited ability to feel with the other person: they were hurting or angry or something, and I was intellectualizing rather than getting the gut-level core of what mattered to them. But drawing on my air nature, I tried to observe them carefully: what they said, how they acted.

It sounds like this man is drawing on some other element, which seems more like Virgo or earth, but it is hard to say without seeing the chart, notably Mercury's situation.

App Leo, I think your numerical weighting is a good place to start. As you get a better feel for horoscopes, you may find you don't use them so much.

To me, aspects are the most important part of a chart reading. So maybe Saturn is .5, but if he's in a tight orb square to a personal planet, say Mercury, negative thinking or even depression may be a key feature of the person's life. Generally the tight orbs in hard aspects are the ones that the person absolutely has to deal with. Think of it as a developmental or evolutionary pressure; whereas a grand trine allows people to coast.

Aspects and mutual reception can bump up other planets in the rating scheme.
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
App Leo, I think your numerical weighting is a good place to start. As you get a better feel for horoscopes, you may find you don't use them so much.

To me, aspects are the most important part of a chart reading. So maybe Saturn is .5, but if he's in a tight orb square to a personal planet, say Mercury, negative thinking or even depression may be a key feature of the person's life. Generally the tight orbs in hard aspects are the ones that the person absolutely has to deal with. Think of it as a developmental or evolutionary pressure; whereas a grand trine allows people to coast.

Aspects and mutual reception can bump up other planets in the rating scheme.

I think aspects are the most important too!!! The zodiac signs are important, but aspects are actually something that you can see.

If someone has a lot of Saturn aspects (like me) and because Saturn rules over Capricorn (an Earth sign) would I be considered dominant Earth then?
 

katydid

Well-known member
When you guys do the element breakdown do you use points or something??

Sun = 2
Moon = 2
Mercury = 1
Venus = 1
Mars = 1
Jupiter = 0.5
Saturn = 0.5
ASC = 2
Midheaven = 1
Planet ruler = +1 to whatever the ruling planet is

Does that seem like a good point breakdown??

Nope. LOL

Why did you take out Uranus, Neptune, Pluto? They count.

I give 1 point to everything, except I give 1.5 to the lights and the the ruler of the Asc.

For example, in your point breakdown, someone with Saturn, Uranus and Neptune in Cap would only have .5 counted in Earth. I think that would be in error to ignore 3 planets conjunct in cardinal Earth.
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
Nope. LOL

Why did you take out Uranus, Neptune, Pluto? They count.

I give 1 point to everything, except I give 1.5 to the lights and the the ruler of the Asc.

For example, in your point breakdown, someone with Saturn, Uranus and Neptune in Cap would only have .5 counted in Earth. I think that would be in error to ignore 3 planets conjunct in cardinal Earth.

The generational planets aren't personal, so it doesn't matter if they're all conjunct in a certain sign. They become personal if they have aspects to personal planets or closely linked to an angular house, which in that case I would consider them important in determining the elements of a chart.

If the Sun, for example, was added to that conjunction in Capricorn, then of course I would count the outer planets because the Sun "activates" them in a sense.

And as Waybread said, the aspects in the chart are the most important. If a certain section of the chart has a ton of aspects in a certain house or sign, then maybe that is the most important in determining a dominant element in a chart.

And what are the lights of a chart?
 
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AppLeo

Well-known member
Have you guys tried the "Simple Delineation by Walter Pullen" on Astrodienst?

It's one interesting way that's used to calculate your elements, qualities, and zodiac sign percentages.

I don't know how it's exactly calculated though. It changes a little bit if you change the house systems.
 

graay ghost

Well-known member
IMHO Air is given too much credit when it comes to "intellectualism". I think Air and Earth, particularly certain signs, are equally intellectual. Air is more communicative/relational/ideological. Your guy sounds very Virgo.
 
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