Black magic/occultism/Past lives

I have a 2-year old niece and ever since I became acquainted with Astrology, I was a little surprised when I ran her chart.

Scorpio ASC
Moon conjunct Saturn rx in Scorpio in the 12th house (Moon conjunct Ascendant)
8th House Sun in Gemini
8th House Mercury rx in Cancer

And, North Node in the 12th House too but in Libra.

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I was told a while ago that my niece probably dabbled in/was associated with dark/black magic and occultist subjects in her past lives and the fact that Saturn is retrograde, it means that she's been repeating the same mistakes throughout her incarnations.

Can anyone give me an input on that? Thanks in advance.

This is exactly why I find past-lives astrology to be highly suspect. What a terrible interpretation to give a little two-year old child.

There is no evidence for any of this. Shame on the person who told you this.

We have to be very careful about delineating a chart for a tiny child. A chart shows only a potential, not an adult biography.

I will suggest that, as she grows and matures, this child's parents should help her in dealing with strong feelings of feeling hurt, unloved, or angry. (Moon-Saturn opposite Venus, Mars-Pluto square. With Venus domiciled in its own sign of Taurus, she will probably have artistic ability.

I feel the way waybread does about small children. I do understand that there are very useful insights sometimes for the parent of a small child and astrology.

If you survive your test of conscious as you decide to delineate this chart, the astrological interpretation should definitely empower the parent and/or the child toward constructive change. I have not and will not look at the charts for my kids, whether they are mine or not, unless there was a dire emergency.

Ruler of the ascendant is in the whole sign 12th. The house of witchcraft in traditional astrology.

She probably was into magic, considering the factors mentioned. But predicting that she was into black magic specifically is a lot harder to say for sure one way or the other.

But you do have 2 afflicted planets in the scorpio 1st house. So I can see why someone would think that she was into the dark arts.

But this past life stuff is really complicated and delineating it with astrology can give really broad and vague delineations. For instance maybe she hasn't practised much black magic for a few lifetimes now. but getting that level of detail from the chart to know for sure isn't known and may not be possible.

People are capable of hurting people with all types of instruments, words can get people put in jail or even killed and physical violence still exists. There are a lot of people who hurt the planet even, all in the name of profit. Most all people on this planet have some sort of negative karma in regard to hurting others in past lives. This girl isn't any different, no one is.

waybread said:

This is exactly why I find past-lives astrology to be highly suspect. What a terrible interpretation to give a little two-year old child.

There is no evidence for any of this. Shame on the person who told you this.

We have to be very careful about delineating a chart for a tiny child. A chart shows only a potential, not an adult biography.

I will suggest that, as she grows and matures, this child's parents should help her in dealing with strong feelings of feeling hurt, unloved, or angry. (Moon-Saturn opposite Venus, Mars-Pluto square. With Venus domiciled in its own sign of Taurus, she will probably have artistic ability.

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Yes, I've already considered the possibility of her growing up to be an artist too. Her Venus in Taurus, Mars in Libra, Pisces on the 5th house cusp and 12th House Moon in Scorpio give strong evidence for that.

Thank you SO MUCH for your insight. Not gonna lie, I was scared when this person told me about the black magic stuff but reading what you said made me feel relieved.

I'd say her parents' relationship is kinda tumultuous.

My sister suffered domestic violence and psychological torture from her previous partner in a 8-year relationship. She met her current partner (my niece's father) in 2012 and she gave birth to my niece in 2014. My sister has health problems (bone pain and extreme thinness) but she still manages to take good care of my niece. She's an adorable person who's been put through a lot mentally (she suffered attempted rape three times in her childhood) but she's a hard-headed and strong-willed woman and never allowed her life's mishaps to tear her down, despite the trauma (she's an Aquarius Sun, Libra rising, Taurus moon and has 6 planets (including Venus, Mars, Mercury) in Capricorn).

Her relationship with my niece's father is complicated. He's very fickle (Cancer Sun, Gemini Venus, Sag rising, Aries Moon). She's always finding out stuff about him, like naked women pictures in his phone, all kinds of pornographic stuff and more. That really hurts my sister and makes her feel belittled in a way because her self steem is very low due to her thinness and that has happened more than once.

I'm not really sure if their relationship is really going to make it through in the following years becase one thing I know for sure is that my sister is not going to let herself be put through another toxic relationship again.

I feel like my sister had to go through all these turbulent situations in her life because she's going to play a key-role in my niece's journey teaching her about the dangers and the ills of this rotten world we live in, because at the end of the day, my niece is a 12th house Scorpio moon, so she'll feel things in a much more complex, deep and intense way than the average person does, so all the maternal support and teaching she receives from my sister will be fundamental.

Alkaid, this is a total misuse of astrology. In terms of 12th house rulerships, black magic is merely one of its rulerships. The 12th also rules prisons, hospitals, places where people voluntarily seclude themselves (like monasteries,) mysticism (as opposed to mainstream religion,) the feet, secret enemies and large animals. In Hindu astrology it is the house in which the native can seek enlightenment and release from material attachments.

What kind of astrology would lay a trip like this on a tiny child?

If you look at the medieval definition of black magic, you'll often see that 'how parents curse their children' involves the 12th house. They called it cruelty, which I find to be quite apt, even today.

That's not past life, by the way. It's the current one. That, and a few other factors in the chart give me cause for concern, but not that the child had been a practitioner of black magic in a past life, if past lives even exist. That cannot be verified by any kind of astrological chart.

I agree, Oddity. As a modern astrologer, I would probably read this chart differently than you do, but I think this is kind of a tough chart. However, the task of the parent/s, possibly in consultation with a better astrologer than the previous one, is to seek more empowering manifestations of her horoscope placements.

In my experience, people with 12th and 8th house placements (assuming whole signs, not Placidus, which the posted chart shows) tend to be very private people. They prefer to work behind the scenes. A little girl might enjoy furnishing a doll house, or playing with puppets-- they are the visible product. Whole signs moves her domiciled Venus in Taurus to the 7th house. Since Venus rules the arts, she might enjoy playing or singing duets or dancing with a partner. (My daughter was always trying to get me to dance with her when she was little.)

As she gets older, Natalia might enjoy her high school drama club, where she's part of the stage crew. She might also become interested in religion, with that nice Jupiter in Cancer in the 9th house trine moon-Saturn.

Fair points, Waybread. I'm not in favour of damning children, either. Especially the ones whose charts don't look entirely happy. If anything, astrology should help to prevent that from happening, not encourage it.

There is really a danger in reading charts for babies or small children. Astrologers are not equally gifted at either astrology or communicating. Many of us are amateurs. Some do not seem to be well-intended people, often because of their own ego needs. Emotionally vulnerable parents can take bad readings to heart, and raise the child in inappropriate ways for no good reason at all beyond misinformation.

Past lives astrology is really problematic because there is seldom any way to verify it. This horoscope being a case in point. If I read your chart, you have the possibility to verify or deny what I say. Not so with past lives astrology. Hypnotic regression, gut feelings, and horoscope interpretations do not constitute solid evidence.

reyvick said:

I have a 2-year old niece and ever since I became acquainted with Astrology, I was a little surprised when I ran her chart.

Scorpio ASC
Moon conjunct Saturn rx in Scorpio in the 12th house (Moon conjunct Ascendant)
8th House Sun in Gemini
8th House Mercury rx in Cancer

And, North Node in the 12th House too but in Libra.

--
I was told a while ago that my niece probably dabbled in/was associated with dark/black magic and occultist subjects in her past lives and the fact that Saturn is retrograde, it means that she's been repeating the same mistakes throughout her incarnations.

Can anyone give me an input on that? Thanks in advance.

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Anything in a chart that could indicate past lives can just as easily indicate ancestral past: the portion of your ancestors' history that manifests in your own life. If the ancestral history is known, clear correlations can be seen. Reincarnation can't be proven or disproven, but history can, if we have the right record. But we don't have the full records. Even if you know who your ancestors were, even if you know something about their lives, you don't know how they lived their emotional, subjective lives. You don't know what secrets they took to the grave.

When the twelfth house is involved--and to some extent, the eighth--the native is living out the secret part of their ancestral past. Houses 4, 8, and 12 are the houses of secrets. In H4, the secrets are open secrets: there are people alive who know and could tell them. Open the closet door, and the skeletons come tumbling out.

H8 is buried secrets, the kind that you could uncover if you dug for them, but you would have to dig. They aren't open secrets. H12 is the completely unknown secrets, the ones that died with people who died before you were born--but they still turn up in the family's collective unconscious, and in the native's life.

In that light, the "she keeps repeating her mistakes through each incarnation" means that she's personally affected by the weight of mistakes that have been passed down through many generations of her family. Maybe, for instance, there's a family history of oppressing others--owning slaves, running sweatshops, being corrupt politicians or tyrannical nobles, or simply a lot of sexism in the family, and/or many generations of abuse. Maybe the family history runs more to being oppressed than to being the oppressor--but in that case, it's a deeply internalized oppression (Saturn conjunct moon).

To be clear, it's not only what her ancestors did, it could also be what was done to them. Saturn in that position, though, makes me think we're looking at some ancestral deeds.

Moon also indicates mother, particularly what was going on with the mother at the time of the native's birth. You just described your niece's moon perfectly in your sister's life: abused, traumatized, in a particularly Scorpionic way, trapped (or feeling trapped) in an unhappy relationship, but possibly about to break free (twelfth house but near ascendant suggests that she'll soon find her own footing, so to speak, even if she's stuck right now; however, the retrograde could mean she's moving back into stuckness), and the thinness and bone disease are attested to by Saturn (rules bones and makes smaller).

Houses

Oddity said:

If you look at the medieval definition of black magic, you'll often see that 'how parents curse their children' involves the 12th house. They called it cruelty, which I find to be quite apt, even today.

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Yes... and how parents curse their children is pretty much what I was getting at above. Ancestral trauma or ancestral evil, handed down, usually unwittingly.

Sometimes it's very blatant, like in a case of an abused child becoming an abusive parent. Often, it's much more subtle. The child absorbs what the parents couldn't handle.

I have Pluto in IC (4th house) in Libra - a signification of possibly was killed or murdered - in a past life. I had past life readings to learned I reincarnated a few times throughout the course of time. I was a 20-something year old woman in (South) Vietnam, most likely in Saigon (now Ho Chi Minh City) in the first half of the 1970s before the fall of their government to the invading North with its communist regime, and I was killed before the 2 Vietnams reunified in 1976.

With Saturn in the 12th she will probably succeed at whatever she came to do. I haven't done enough research but for some reason I see it as a good placement, almost like alot of the heavy stuff is being done for the person...at the soul level. How it manifests in reality may be something to worry about. But its a good thing she has you for an aunt