Saturn Discussion - the Nature of Delays

Hi, I'm hoping to learn more about why Saturn is known for bringing delays to matters? I don't know enough about this and I keep coming across chart readings which point out that success in an area will come later in life. I've seen this particularly with love and career.

I may have some of the pieces but need to assemble them; how much does this involve maturity, making mistakes and re-aligning focus, a process of elimination of what's not needed, stability earned through raw experience? What else is involved in the appearance of Saturn 'delaying' success and happiness, how does it work?

byjove said:

Hi, I'm hoping to learn more about why Saturn is known for bringing delays to matters? I don't know enough about this and I keep coming across chart readings which point out that success in an area will come later in life. I've seen this particularly with love and career.

I may have some of the pieces but need to assemble them; how much does this involve maturity, making mistakes and re-aligning focus, a process of elimination of what's not needed, stability earned through raw experience? What else is involved in the appearance of Saturn 'delaying' success and happiness, how does it work?

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The association of Saturn with bringing delays is partially linked to Saturn's 30-year orbital period of the Sun which leads to many of us experiencing a maximum of only three Saturn Returns in a lifetime IN CONTRAST WITH a Mercury return every 88 days! Of course it is possible that due to Saturn being at times retrograde, then some of us may experience 'two or even three Saturn Returns' for the price of one' during our first, second or third Saturn Return!

Hello again Byjove:
As mentioned, with Saturn it is all about cycles...the primary 30 year cycle is broken down into 4 'seasons', with checkpoints occurring every 7 years [the 7 year itch]...this is how we gauge the development of character and individuality. Think in terms of the evolution of individuality. Much does have to do with maturity, because during the first 30 year cycle, we are learning everything new, and for the first time. Once Saturn has cycled the chart once, we then get another chance to change direction, and hopefully we have by then learned the necessary lessons of navigating through life...Saturn's movements depict the working of the law of cause and effect in our lives, and if we don't grow [evolve] the first time around, we will have to repeat the same mistakes. Saturn provides the 'seasoning' in life, as you have noted. The other thing to know about Saturn, in view of its association with 'time'; It rules Capricorn, which also symbolizes 'strategy'; if we find ourselves moving into the wrong path, Saturn will create 'strategic delays' to set us right again...Saturn used to be called the Great Teacher, and that is exactly what it is. Then it is up to us as to how to respond to the promptings of the spirit.

I don't know the mechanics, but symbolically, Saturn is thought to have a 'cold' and 'dry' quality.

For growth, you need warmth and moisture, the opposite of Saturn's effects.

I don't personally see Saturn associated with delays as such, but rather with the lesson of deferred gratification. He also rules maturity and old age.

Saturn teaches us to save our money for the future, for example, rather than spend it now on something ephemeral. Thrift, patience, and postponing immediate gratification would seem like delays to people who want rewards to appear promptly.

Then if people do save money towards their retirement, normally they would get its rewards later in life-- ideally with compound interest.

The more I study Saturn the more I see him as the great teacher of the solar system-- and in a very common-sense, pragmatic way.

Saturn in the 7th or as the ruler of the 7th can mean: marriage later in life, marriage to an older person, or to one who seems very mature in some way. Of course, it can also mean disappointments, but a well aspected Saturn in the 7th would probably bear its fruit-- in season.

With Saturn in the 2th or ruling the 2nd people would be advised to make their money through hard work and conservative financial strategies, rather than taking a chance on a "sure thing" or assuming "something will turn up."

Saturn does offer us limitations that we don't particularly want. But hey. Builds character.

Ah ha, Saturn's 30 year cycle is a part of this? I never considered that. As for development in areas of life, when Saturn is involved, would people expect results after the first Saturn Return, the second or it depends?

The only thing about cycles and seasons is about trying to anticipate practical effects for a native. With Saturn contact with the Moon, emotional maturity and inner strength - but when does that occur? I'm not sure where the line is . Saturn contact with Mercury, perhaps stabilizing a negative attitude or thinking and preventing it from interfering with life, achieving educational goals, but how does the native know that it they're on track? With Venus contact, hard lessons with love and friendship. You know today I read about Venus-Saturn natives taking 'social grace lessons' to 'help them in life', I nearly choked on my coffee . With Jupiter contact, perhaps a native notices an area of life isn't growing or much slower than other people. I won't ask exactly 'what time the train arrives' but 'how does the train know it's on track'?

The only thing about not automatically associating Saturn with delays is that, in charts that I've seen, when Saturn makes contact (especially squares, oppositions) to Mercury, there is certainly the appearance of delays, frustrations. I can tell that they are there, but not why. With Venus, one of my newest understandings is social retraction - removing oneself from social interaction when disheartened, the same often happens romantically. They may not immediately appear as delays - except when compared with peers. Whatever is really going on, it's generally not growth or 'success' in the most generic meaning.

Waybread,

You always offer a wealth of insight. I wanted to add to your Saturn comments something which you're probably well-aware of:

Cayce was recorded as saying that Saturn was perhaps the most spiritual planet, and the lessons offered by Saturn (I am paraphrasing from memory) constitute some of the greatest, and perhaps most challenging potentials an incarnation could strive toward. Or something like that. This is recounted, I believe, in Arroyo's excellent _Astrology, Karma, and Transformation_ [correct title? Apologies if garbled].

Having an abundance of (not particularly pleasant) Saturn influence in my chart, I can feel its frustrating and delaying qualities, and can only hope there will indeed be instances of delayed gratification and ripened maturity. I have a harshly-aspected Saturn in Gemini (in fifth), broadly conjunct my sun. And I am Cap ascendant.

Truly, I hope it will bode positive for better career prospects in the second half of life. But, there are several other indicators of this in my chart -- I feel almost any chart should look for multiple indicators to suggest a theme -- including Yods, which are said to present a different, more balanced second half of life, as well as a strongly-aspected Neptune retrograde in my tenth house of career.

Yeah, Saturn can be harsh, but it is also said to represent the principle of fulfillment. There is much information written about Saturn that yields a larger picture. Wasn't there a good Liz Greene book (that I haven't read) on Saturn?

But I digress...

Saturn: A New Look at an Old Devil - Liz Greene

http://www.amazon.com/Saturn-New-Look-Old-Devil/dp/1578635071

Life is in fact all about seasons and cycles...it helps to know the length of the different cycles...for Saturn it is 30 years, with trigger points every 7 years; Jupiter is 12 years, with trigger points every 3 years. Mars is very interesting to consider, since it only takes two years for one go around, and then it starts all over again. It is significant at the opposition and the Return especially; also it's relationship in cycle to the Sun often represents significant turning points.

Does anyone have any comment on the recent and still lingering Pluto Uranus square...in view of the rising tensions in Korea? And what about with Saturn and Pluto now in mutual reception?

I love Saturn! I agree with waybread, as I don't associate Saturn with delays. I think Saturn is unfortunately casted as a malefic force which I think is unwarranted. Saturn teaches patience to learn and grow into a mature/conscious individual- an adult. Part of being an adult is realizing that you can't get everything you want when you want it as it requires patience and hard work to achieve it. "Patience is a virtue," must be a Saturnine motto. Unfortunately, with maturity, "growing pains" occur as well.

I'm pretty biased. As I said, I love Saturn. I have Libra Saturn (exalted) which is on my AC in his home of 1st house (traditional rulership) and trines my Sun and Mars. Perhaps it is "easier" for me to accept and incorporate Saturn's influences and I don't fight against harsh realities but work with it. It's not that I haven't had rough times in my life, as I have. It's possible that I may have learned to correct some difficulties quickly/early on in life. In nearly all ways, I consider myself very lucky and pretty thankful that my Karma planet is in exaltation.

Thank you Zigguarat!

I am a great believe in choice-centred astrology. Or, the "if life hands you a lemon, make lemonade" school of horoscope interpretation. Otherwise known as, "It is easier to ride the horse in the direction it's going." I think a horoscope offers us opportunities for personal development, according to our various placements. Ideally if we manifest constructive interpretations of our chart, it should feel really, really, like our true selves.

So one thing to consider might be how to express Saturn's positive side. I always think of something like mountaineering or just hiking in the mountains. Steven Forrest, a Capricorn astrologer (and author of one of my favourite books, The Inner Sky) apparently took up ocean sailing. (Capricorn is the goat with the fish tail!) The 5th house rules recreation and leisure pursuits, so even if you don't have an ocean or mountains in your backyard, you can find something comparable that tests your endurance.

Rex E. Bills, The Rulership Book, has a whole list of things ruled by the different signs planets, and houses, so surely some of them would interest you. Just for example, Saturn also rules farming.

Examples of other Saturnine/Capricorn hobbies might be anything old or antique. With Gemini involved, maybe start up a used book collection on something that interests you. Record seniors' life histories for your local historical society's oral history collection. Or start learning classical astrology in ancient Greek, or somesuch.

While these hobbies may seem like a lot of sublimation, I think they can offer personal rewards (recreation = re-creation.) But also, the universe notices when we take steps to help ourselves.

I think Saturnine people tend to be late-bloomers, but there is nothing wrong with that.

My son has Saturn broadly conjunct his sun, as well. His career is finally taking off now that he is in his mid-30s-- preceded by several really lean years. His career? Architecture. Saturn rules structures.

Saturn does seem to be "the lord of karma" but in a material, real-world sense. Pay the bills, or pay the consequences. What you give out is what you get back.

Saturn can offer people huge challenges and tests. But these build character and can foster enormous personal inner strength. Saturn asks us to face adversity with courage and steadfastness. For people with no Saturn challenge, I doubt that these qualities would develop nearly so well.

Kimbermoon, in response to your question, yes I'm very interested in the Uranus/Pluto situation. I'm not sure about the Korea situation yet, but I fully expect civil disquiet in the EU (perhaps Cyprus or Greece) when the square perfects for the first of (I think 3 times) this late April/May. How about you?

Waybread, I know your good advice and experience will mean more as time goes on. I don't forget these perspectives, like a good bottle of wine, it's put aside until the time is ripe to appreciate it. However, it seems like every two years or so I face 'crisis points' and I've been telling myself for years it's good for character building. I'm being tested again now. I guess that's part of what made me dig deeper into these Saturn tests, I wondered about the nature of challenge.

I agree that Korea is not the only hot spot around the globe at the moment, for again we cannot forget the mess in the EU, and their financial downfall...we also have to consider the alliances they have with other countries...China is Korea's ally supposedly; they are another contender in the big picture, in terms of their associations with both the U.S and Russia...definitely sounds like a set-up for some major dramatic events...when can we exhale again? I think it is all a shell game, as in, when we are focusing on one big topic, something else is happening elsewhere...this is how the media partakes in the game...as we see now that our focus is centred on the potentials for war, most have forgotten all about Obama and his deceptions...whatever happened to the proposal for 'impeachment'?

What you say rings true. I have Saturn square Jupiter, a cap moon in the 6th, it's also sadly my 7th house ruler, and making a mess in my 5th house as we speak.

I find that I collect Saturnine people, and it's interesting to watch them go about their business. Most of these people are drawn to antiques, whether just by themselves or are attracted to steampunk or victorian aesthetic and the old world idea of hard work and real, serious values. Many of these people are also collectors, a hobby that is difficult and takes time, but is very rewarding in the end, also plays with the materialstic side. The frequent use of patience and striving for something over a long time period makes this for a suitable hobby indeed.

Maybe Saturn ruling your 6th and 7th houses aren't so bad? You'll make more sober choices in partnerships as you get older. But I do understand about the desire to have relationships and Saturn having a strong hold on that relationship house can be very frustrating.

BTW, I love antiques! Since I was a youngster, family members and friends saw me as a historian, or a museum curator, or some sort of antique dealer because I had the knack for giving correct dates for every object I come across. I use to save up wads of cash from allowances, birthdays, awards, jobs, etc. and put it in this really old jewelry box from the 1920s that I unearthed in my cousin's backyard. He thought I was nutty to love something so old. But I cleaned it up and kept my most "valuable" objects in that- which was money! I'm also obsessed with expiration dates of all things and I still collect receipts from all my travels so I can make comparisons of tax percentage from different cities/states. My ex-husband thought I was nutty about that and never understood why I collected old stuff that seemed like junk. I can't explain it myself, other than I like the old styles from the past, esp. Victorian and Edwardian times. I think people were more civilized and intellectual back then too, which is very appeal to my Libra Saturn sensibilities.

I have Saturn ruling my 4th (Capricorn) and 5th (Aquarius) but there's no planets in either houses. I've had my fair share of frustrations and struggled with the concept of "waiting" for romance to come along (meanwhile feeling like my good years are dying off). My Saturn is in the 1st, on my AC so he's basically the gatekeeper to anyone who enters my life. I've allowed very few people in my life, and less inclined to tolerate people's bs despite having Libra rising.

Saturn trines my 5th house but he opposes my 7th... and yet, I married early on in life to another Libra Saturn individual. I also divorced early on in life, too. After my divorce (mid 20s) I felt very alone and scared that I'd be force to suffer the rest of my days alone and oh woe is me mentality (as there seems to be no decent men around my age with little to no baggage). Now, years after the fact, I don't dread being alone but rather, I enjoy it to the nth degree. I don't have to worry for anyone but myself and my cat and that's probably something I wouldn't have learned to do if it weren't for Saturn. I've reached a point where I wouldn't care if I didn't find someone for the rest of my days. I'm pretty content and happy being alone. It's better than putting up with someone horrid and their gross karma...that's for sure!

For may28gemini: I already know that I can make it alone, but it's not where I want to be right now, that's the problem and source for oh woe is me these days. But good for you, we all better learn what the great teacher is trying to get into our thick heads I find it both amusing and endearing that you fit in right with "my lot" when it comes down to the antiques! (sorry, possessive scorp speaking )

Another thing is, there are several people in my vicinity with the jupiter-saturn square, and it's been on my mind a lot for the past few days. We all seem to be dealing with it differently, but those desperatly trying to clutch the jupiter end of the bargain no matter what, shunning the saturn lesson seem to have an air of impeding doom around them. Anything can happen in time when saturn is involved, but some lessons definitely seem to come at a very high price.

I don't mind Scorpio ways. I'm Scorpionic in the Plutonic sense (not Martian) having Pluto in my 1st that trines Mercury and Venus. I'm not a stranger to understanding their sense of the reality, even though, I myself, do not practice LOL

I've been thinking about the various Jupiter-Saturn aspects and how they manifest in life. Of the strong/difficult aspects, I think Jupiter conjunct Saturn would be a little bit less rough on the system because they both act as 1 agent. But I am uncertain as I only know of the realities of the conjunction because I was born into the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction in Libra. Maybe you can share some manifestations of how the square works?

I too, have to deal with my Jupiter-Saturn conjunction generation (those born in like a 10 months span) and yet, we all express it differently. Some are quite smug and take excessive pride in being married with kids. Some, like myself, are not married (although I once was) and don't really see ourselves in relationships anytime soon. My gross conjunction generation is not really in accordance with each other. Might as well. I can't stand most of them (ironic isn't it?) and if I had to spend too long of a time with them, I'd go psycho on them. But maybe that's just how the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction works... all or nothing. Explosions or all quiet on the western front.

I can't seem for the life of me, separate my Jupiter from Saturn and truth be told, I feel both of them so keenly but never individually. My luck is tied to responsibility, I must always take care of the good fortune that comes by way so I mustn't be careless to let it slip. My sense of higher good is tied to being happy-go-lucky and having the optimism to pull through... despite surrounding chaos. In all sense, I must be true and realistic with myself to operate on both the philosophical level and also, the mundane level.

I'm guessing you have Sagittarius Saturn square Pisces Jupiter? Jupiter is in domicile and may serve you well... Sagittarius Saturn isn't too bad either... but it can put a damper on some jolly stuff.

Yup, both me, my recent ex, and our mutual friend who is his roomie now have the sag saturn square pisces jupiter.

Here's how it works on our example: Me, I know things will get worse before they will get better. I labor maybe seemingly slowly, taking little steps on several fronts to where I'm supposed to be getting, but I always get there. And I make sure that the nature of changes and lessons I am learning in the process are firmly in place, and are going to stay there. It may not be "fast enough" in the eyes of say, my parents or sometimes even a partner, but I am already attuned to this, and I know this is a road to success. True, there are extreme heights and lows in my life, but at this point I know nothing will kill me, and having all that plutonic force behind my butt, I do bank a lot on my phoenix-like qualities. But, the knowledge that I can indeed survive anything was painfully acquired. I should put all that mercury goodness I have to some use and write memories about my dramedylife one day but I have come to terms with it. I definitely do try to side with the Saturn here, though sometimes it's hard to push myself to keep on going forward and not put things off more than I have to, in the end, it works out.

Then, my ex is doing the opposite, holding on to his Jupiter for dear life, and it has now come to bite him in the ***. Where I have been lucky in life, I saw it as that I tried to come forward to this result, and put myself in situations where good things can happen and worked towards it. He sees it as something that is just there and he is entitled to it. It's been there, it will be there, and it doesn't require effort on his part. where things start going sour, he banks on his eloquence to put things off, and continue his life of leisure and fun. He has been "given" many things and opportunities by his parents and other circumstances, but it has come to an end now, where he must put some effort for the first time ever into anything. He now has to support himself, finish his diploma work on a short time notice, and I wanted things off him to do in our relationship, in order to save it. He thought it's too much work, and he doesn't like to work on things, so it's over. Now he is seeing that silver tongue doesn't fix everything, and he must learn those Saturn lessons, that have been waiting for him there, and is basically a wreck, still yet to start doing anything about himself, while time is ticking.

The third person with the same set up has been more friendly with the Jupiter side also, and is in a similar situation to my ex, but he knows that the time for play and hedonism is over now and that he must deliver. So he delivers, fully realizing he has put himself into a situation with putting things off too and now something must be done about it. I think he is doing well to try to balance and harness the power of both of the planets, while living a drama filled life too, he is also trying to learn and not only play all the time like my ex. This guy is scorpio sun like me, and overall a fellow plutonian powerhouse, so our ways are very similar, both in terms of dealing with the drama the square brings and in terms of actually trying to learn and get down to the bottom of this. My ex in the middle example is a Sag sun, and overall has more sagittarian energy (even though there is quite a bit of plutonian undertones) and that is probably why he is more chummy with the Jupiter side of things, refusing to step off the ride and get down to business like me and his friend.

YUCK I don't like how the square works. Things getting worse before better... ewwww that's horrible. I would be so depressed if that was my reality. Oh man, now I understand why your ex and roomie are trying to ride out on Jupiter's high. Sagittarius Saturn isn't too bad of a Saturn but I think Saturn actually hates being in a lot of signs and some signs he hates being in more so he'll wreak more havoc (like in Cancer). But getting back to Saturn in Sag... I think that puts a damper on fun and may curb some happy-go-luckiness.

Since your ex has Sag Sun and Sag Saturn, are those two planets conjunct or parallel?

The Sun and Saturn are in his case conjunct. His Sun squares both his Jupiter and Mars(also pisces), and his Mars squares his Scorp Moon. Asc opposition with said Mars to add. And while he has plutonian goodies going on (Pluto, Venus, Merc, Moon in Scorp), he doesn't know how to use it. Also, his 5th is empty and ruled by Saturn, his 7th isn't anything pretty to look at either. So, I say good riddance. He *may* be a great guy much later, but first he has to stop being an introspection-phobe and a person who runs from every single problem that has ever emerged in his life. seeing how he is now though, I am not very hopeful that he'll get around to harnessing many of the good stuff in him that is lurking under the surface unless there is a MAJOR change.

So, being on the Saturn side, and trying to be friendly with him seems to be like a good idea to me. Sure, I do get to have less fun, than both them and other people in their setups, but I do find peace in my solitary hobbies, and the knowledge that if you work hard, Saturn isn't going to leave you there unrewarded, though he probably will take his sweet time, is a much better angle to look at it in my opinion.