Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

kaktuzz

Well-known member
Most traditional astrologers use the Egyptian terms, not the Ptolemy or Chaldean ones. So you will probably want to include the Egyptian terms, yes.

OK, thanks.

I added other terms (Egyptian and Chaldean diurnal/nocturnal) and set the Egyptian terms as default option.
 

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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
It's good you mentioned BOUNDS (Terms) of Ascendant
(and planet ruling Ascendant sign)
I was just about to ask - I implemented Ptolemy's terms only (because these terms were first in google search results :whistling:);
but I found later, there are also other terms (Egyptian and Chaldean)
https://altairastrology.wordpress.com/2009/03/01/more-on-the-terms-or-bounds/
Do you use any of these 2 other systems?, or are they used for some reason? It shouldn't be such a problem to implement these terms into calculator, so I'm just asking.


And btw. ... I did a summary statistics on the astro.com databank birth time records.
And I found, that birth times aren't rounded mostly on hour, quarter hour or half hour ... but mostly (36%) on the hour only (AA records (!)).
History is full of very radical rounding :/
(Fortunatelly it's much better these days)

Summary statistics on the cca 15.000 AA Astro-Databank birth time records:
AA astro-databank birth records
exclude several billions of people
in fact, the vast majority of the population of planet earth :smile:
the births of us ordinary mortals are frequently rounded up or rounded down
as several members working in hospitals stated they observed
that times of death as well as times of birth
are often noted hours after the event
so obviously estimated
and
that is no surprise
simply because
at times of birth and death
the medical team are not hovering over a clock
but are instead
at birth intent on the health and safety of mother and newborn
and
at death also intent on the care of the dying
in any event as I previously stated there is also the fact that
clocks themselves are mechanical/electronic objects subject to error
 

petosiris

Banned
Hi,

I updated astrodatabase search engine a little bit and it's possible to search celebrities (or registered users) also by Part of Fortune now :)

Link: famouspeople.astro-seek.com/advanced-astro-seeker (astrodatabase of famous celebrities)

Link: horoscopes.astro-seek.com/advanced-astro-seeker (astrodatabase of registered users)

Did not know such thing even existed. Very, very useful for finding examples for ayanamsha comparison for example. But it will be even better if you could choose to find only AA charts. (I found a way to exclude charts without birth times by choosing a rising sign, but it still slightly inconvenient. That is a minor criticism though.)
 
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kaktuzz

Well-known member
But it will be even better if you could choose to find only AA charts. (I found a way to exclude charts without birth times by choosing a rising sign, but it still slightly inconvenient. That is a minor criticism though.)

Updated (RR-Rodden Rating search option added :))
 

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conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
Hello,

www.chrisbrennanastrologer.com/Brennan-Theoretical-Rationale.pdf

First is the Lot of Fortune which, for those born by day, it will be necessary to count from the
solar degree to the lunar degree, and one must cast out the collected number from the degreenumber
of the ascendant, giving 30 degrees to each sign. And where the collected number
leaves off, say that at that place is the Lot of Fortune. For those at night, the reverse, that is
from the lunar degree to the solar. And likewise one must cast out the remainder from the
degree of the ascendant.

Second is the Lot of Spirit. You will count for a diurnal birth from the Moon’s degree to the
Sun’s degree, and one must cast out the collected number from the degree of the ascendant,
again likewise apportioning up to 30 degrees from each sign. And where the number leaves off,
there will be the Lot of Spirit. Thus by day, but the reverse by night.


In your software, Fortuna seems to be calculated correctly only if the chart is nocturnal. If diurnal, fortuna and spirit's location will be incorrectly placed. Was this a deliberate feature on your part? If not, I thought I'd mention it to you in case it wasn't.
 

kaktuzz

Well-known member
Hello,

www.chrisbrennanastrologer.com/Brennan-Theoretical-Rationale.pdf

First is the Lot of Fortune which, for those born by day, it will be necessary to count from the
solar degree to the lunar degree, and one must cast out the collected number from the degreenumber
of the ascendant, giving 30 degrees to each sign. And where the collected number
leaves off, say that at that place is the Lot of Fortune. For those at night, the reverse, that is
from the lunar degree to the solar. And likewise one must cast out the remainder from the
degree of the ascendant.

Second is the Lot of Spirit. You will count for a diurnal birth from the Moon’s degree to the
Sun’s degree, and one must cast out the collected number from the degree of the ascendant,
again likewise apportioning up to 30 degrees from each sign. And where the number leaves off,
there will be the Lot of Spirit. Thus by day, but the reverse by night.


In your software, Fortuna seems to be calculated correctly only if the chart is nocturnal. If diurnal, fortuna and spirit's location will be incorrectly placed. Was this a deliberate feature on your part? If not, I thought I'd mention it to you in case it wasn't.

Hello,

I'm using these formulas for Lot of Fortune and Lot of Spirit calculation:

https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/part-of-fortune-lot-of-fortune-online-calculator

Lot of Fortune (LF)
LF = Ascendant + Moon - Sun (Day Births)
LF = Ascendant + Sun - Moon (Night Births)

Lot of Spirit (LS)
LS = Ascendant + Sun - Moon (Day Births)
LS = Ascendant + Moon - Sun (Night Births)

I found the same formulas at Skyscript and Astrodienst. Is there something wrong with them? :unsure:
 

petosiris

Banned
Hello,

I'm using these formulas for Lot of Fortune and Lot of Spirit calculation:

https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/part-of-fortune-lot-of-fortune-online-calculator

Lot of Fortune (LF)
LF = Ascendant + Moon - Sun (Day Births)
LF = Ascendant + Sun - Moon (Night Births)

Lot of Spirit (LS)
LS = Ascendant + Sun - Moon (Day Births)
LS = Ascendant + Moon - Sun (Night Births)

I found the same formulas at Skyscript and Astrodienst. Is there something wrong with them? :unsure:

I think they are right (that is correct for the majority, I personally use different formula for Fortune, based on my reading of Nechepso, Valens and Serapio). Maybe conspiracy theorist got confused with the way the formulas are presented between medieval and Hellenistic tradition. One uses geometrical counting, the other, as quoted by you, algebraic.


Ridiculous assertions are made in this paper like - ''For example, a native who has a solar Lot of Spirit and focuses their intellectual faculties in a way that “emits” or generates works through the independent parthenogenesis of new ideas, versus a native who has a lunar Lot of Spirit and tends actualize their intellectual faculties by “receiving” or pulling together the work of others in order to reflect and compare them, thus also creating something new in the process.''. Robert Schmidt on skyscript pointed out that sun sign astrology separates at least 12 groups of people. Dividing people into two groups and making every nocturnal birth feminine is base. Therefore I recommend the following:
http://www.astrologiahumana.com/PartofFortune.pdf *
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9843&sid=6ce61deb9afb431779efb9cfbf935c3c

It appears to me, a good possibility that the predomination for the Lot was intended to be the same as for the length of life walking/circumambulation. Therefore one should reverse the day formula during day if the Sun is declining while the Moon is operative and one should not reverse the day formula for night, whenever the Moon is inoperative while the Sun is operative. In the length of life predomination, the same approach was taken - both sect and angularity matter.

I personally do not use the philosophical (I call them such) lots and Daimon.

Thus:
In all nativities, the Lightbringer is Predominator if he is operative.
If he is not, the other Light is Predominator if he is operative.
If both Lights are inoperative, the Hour-Marker is Predominator.

One obvious error of the Hellenics was that ''Fortune'' was assigned to the Moon. Obviously this would be true only in their dualistic gnostical scheme, but not according to the statement and formula of Nechepso who like a true Egyptian says ''whole circle has rightly been entrusted to the Sun''.

* The paper does not include the following statement: ''Many times Spirit (Daimon) becomes Fortune: for when the Light of the Sect is found in bounds of [a star] out of Sect; or, according to the masculine and feminine - that is, when the Sun is in a feminine sign by day, or when the Moon in a masculine sign by night; or when the Light of the Sect is not Eastern in the Hemisphere of the Sect; or when both Lights happen to be in the hemisphere under the Earth, and the other stars are found in an uncongenial condition because of the Light in overseeing position, that is, in the anteceding signs, then Fortune is taken in the direction of the following signs.'' - Serapio of Alexandria, translation by Eduardo J. Gramaglia
The question is what becomes of Daimon?

The Lot is the phase of the Moon, it is dependant on it, but also on the day or night cycle, that is decided by the Sun, not the Moon. Btw Nechepso does not say to measure Moon to Sun, he says to reverse measure the distance, because it is the same thing (I think it was more symbolic to reverse measure). ''Whether you measure from the Sun to the Moon and that distance from the Ascendant, or from the Moon to the Sun and do likewise, you will find the Lot located at the same point.'' This was pointed by Schmidt to contradict Chris Brennan's assertion that the measurement by geometry was symbolical and the medieval arithmetical is somehow wrong.

I think both are wrong (this only concerns abstract theory, not calculation) and that we should use geometrical measurement, but to reverse measure from the Hour-Marker instead of measuring from the second star. At least this is how Nechepso intended it in my view. Because the Sun is first, always.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5523&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 - this is the skyscript thread for anyone interested.
 
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conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
Actually, no. I didn't have a problem with the formulas per se, but the fact that the software flips spirit and fortuna in the diurnal chart. In my chart, fortuna is in 3rd and Spirit is on the MC (placidus) and the software has it reversed. I changed the chart details to a nocturnal time and the chart adhered to the standard formula. As it doesn't seem to be an astrological issue, it might be technical.

Interesting post, petosiris. I'll take a closer look at the links and details you've introduced when I have the time.
 

kaktuzz

Well-known member
Actually, no. I didn't have a problem with the formulas per se, but the fact that the software flips spirit and fortuna in the diurnal chart. In my chart, fortuna is in 3rd and Spirit is on the MC (placidus) and the software has it reversed. I changed the chart details to a nocturnal time and the chart adhered to the standard formula. As it doesn't seem to be an astrological issue, it might be technical.

Interesting post, petosiris. I'll take a closer look at the links and details you've introduced when I have the time.

Can you send me your birth data, please? I will check it out, if there is a technical issue.
 

kaktuzz

Well-known member
Ridiculous assertions are made in this paper like - ''For example, a native who has a solar Lot of Spirit and focuses their intellectual faculties in a way that “emits” or generates works through the independent parthenogenesis of new ideas, versus a native who has a lunar Lot of Spirit and tends actualize their intellectual faculties by “receiving” or pulling together the work of others in order to reflect and compare them, thus also creating something new in the process.''. Robert Schmidt on skyscript pointed out that sun sign astrology separates at least 12 groups of people. Dividing people into two groups and making every nocturnal birth feminine is base. Therefore I recommend the following:
http://www.astrologiahumana.com/PartofFortune.pdf *
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9843&sid=6ce61deb9afb431779efb9cfbf935c3c

It appears to me, a good possibility that the predomination for the Lot was intended to be the same as for the length of life walking/circumambulation. Therefore one should reverse the day formula during day if the Sun is declining while the Moon is operative and one should not reverse the day formula for night, whenever the Moon is inoperative while the Sun is operative. In the length of life predomination, the same approach was taken - both sect and angularity matter.

I personally do not use the philosophical (I call them such) lots and Daimon.

Thus:
In all nativities, the Lightbringer is Predominator if he is operative.
If he is not, the other Light is Predominator if he is operative.
If both Lights are inoperative, the Hour-Marker is Predominator.

One obvious error of the Hellenics was that ''Fortune'' was assigned to the Moon. Obviously this would be true only in their dualistic gnostical scheme, but not according to the statement and formula of Nechepso who like a true Egyptian says ''whole circle has rightly been entrusted to the Sun''.

* The paper does not include the following statement: ''Many times Spirit (Daimon) becomes Fortune: for when the Light of the Sect is found in bounds of [a star] out of Sect; or, according to the masculine and feminine - that is, when the Sun is in a feminine sign by day, or when the Moon in a masculine sign by night; or when the Light of the Sect is not Eastern in the Hemisphere of the Sect; or when both Lights happen to be in the hemisphere under the Earth, and the other stars are found in an uncongenial condition because of the Light in overseeing position, that is, in the anteceding signs, then Fortune is taken in the direction of the following signs.'' - Serapio of Alexandria, translation by Eduardo J. Gramaglia
The question is what becomes of Daimon?

The Lot is the phase of the Moon, it is dependant on it, but also on the day or night cycle, that is decided by the Sun, not the Moon. Btw Nechepso does not say to measure Moon to Sun, he says to reverse measure the distance, because it is the same thing (I think it was more symbolic to reverse measure). ''Whether you measure from the Sun to the Moon and that distance from the Ascendant, or from the Moon to the Sun and do likewise, you will find the Lot located at the same point.'' This was pointed by Schmidt to contradict Chris Brennan's assertion that the measurement by geometry was symbolical and the medieval arithmetical is somehow wrong.

I think both are wrong (this only concerns abstract theory, not calculation) and that we should use geometrical measurement, but to reverse measure from the Hour-Marker instead of measuring from the second star. At least this is how Nechepso intended it in my view. Because the Sun is first, always.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5523&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 - this is the skyscript thread for anyone interested.

Thanks for this interesting post.
 

petosiris

Banned
Hello,

I'm new to traditional astrology. It's absolutely new brand of astrology for me - I just recently downloaded Morinus software and it gave me some inspiration to create free online calculator adjusted for traditional astrology:
https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/traditional-astrology

calculator has features such as: 7 main planets; Terms; Lot of Fortune; Lot of Spirit; Whole sign houses; Firdaria periods calculator; Dodecatemoria calculator; Prenatal syzygy chart...


I attached my birth chart generated by this online calculator and I would be happy for any feedback or discussion - technical or astrological :)

Attachments - 1) Placidus houses and planet positions / 2 Whole Sign Houses / 3) Whole Sign Houses (started from Part of Fortune)

I will use Aldebaran 15 (can you add that please?). I will demonstrate how the Predominator is chosen, that is according to Porphyry, Antigonus, Valens and others with your chart.

First, we look whether the Sun is above the horizon, it is - therefore the Sun is the Lightbringer (Light of the Sect). However it is inoperative in the IX place (personally I use whole signs, but in this case it is also the same for equal houses and quadrants), therefore it is not fit to be Predominator. As a result we examine the other Light. It chanced to be in the operative VIII place therefore it is the Predominator.

Differences arise between the authors in how to choose the Master of the Nativity. I follow the most popular Hellenistic approach of taking the Ruler of the Predominator (the domicile ruler, not the bound ruler as done by Valens). Therefore, Jupiter is the Master of the Nativity, which is angular and exchanging close rays with the Predominator, although it is retreating.

The Predominator was usually released using rising times (can you add that feature for sidereal please, Valens and Morinus have only tropical ones) in zodiacal order (unlike primary directions).

The bound lords were taken into account as Time Lords and the conjunctions, square and opposition rays of the malefics, the Sun or the Moon were thought to be especially dangerous and life-threatening if no benefic intervenes. Therefore the Predominator was used both in the length of life as well as noting general good periods.

Presumably some 5 years after becoming 26 year old (Venus bound of Taurus) are less challenging than the few years before it. Because Venus rules the X and is closely configured with the Predominator, it probably involves an important change in occupation. And I strongly suspect you got into some more serious affair at 28 years old and that you got close friends as a result from this or occupation, educated and talkative people.

And to further illustrate predomination for the Lot, if you follow me (because of angularity) or Serapio (because of ''sect'') you will have the Lot of Fortune in II instead of XII.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
It's done :)
https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/traditional-astrology

I found Raman, Lahiri and Khullar ayanamsa calculation formulas.
If someone would know by chance Fagan-Bradley formula, I could also add it. (I couldn't find this formula anywhere :/)
kaktuzz - when input is SIDEREAL
prenatal Syzygy chart is AUTOMATICALLY calculated using TROPICAL

so then
the biwheel of prenatal Syzygy with natal SIDEREAL
is also automatically calculated
but is meaningless

because
the two charts are in two different zodiacs on the biwheel
There's obviously a reason why
:smile:
 

kaktuzz

Well-known member
kaktuzz - when input is SIDEREAL
prenatal Syzygy chart is AUTOMATICALLY calculated using TROPICAL

so then
the biwheel of prenatal Syzygy with natal SIDEREAL
is also automatically calculated
but is meaningless

because
the two charts are in two different zodiacs on the biwheel
There's obviously a reason why
:smile:

Thanks for reporting this issue.

I put that biwheel link "Natal x Syzygy" away when chart is calculated using Sidereal (... until I manage to finish Transit/Biwheel chart also with Sidereal option :))
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Thanks for reporting this issue.

I put that biwheel link "Natal x Syzygy" away when chart is calculated using Sidereal
(... until I manage to finish Transit/Biwheel chart also with Sidereal option :))
Great thanks - that avoids confusion for beginners using the feature :smile:
 

kaktuzz

Well-known member
I will use Aldebaran 15 (can you add that please?). I will demonstrate how the Predominator is chosen, that is according to Porphyry, Antigonus, Valens and others with your chart.

First, we look whether the Sun is above the horizon, it is - therefore the Sun is the Lightbringer (Light of the Sect). However it is inoperative in the IX place (personally I use whole signs, but in this case it is also the same for equal houses and quadrants), therefore it is not fit to be Predominator. As a result we examine the other Light. It chanced to be in the operative VIII place therefore it is the Predominator.

Differences arise between the authors in how to choose the Master of the Nativity. I follow the most popular Hellenistic approach of taking the Ruler of the Predominator (the domicile ruler, not the bound ruler as done by Valens). Therefore, Jupiter is the Master of the Nativity, which is angular and exchanging close rays with the Predominator, although it is retreating.

The Predominator was usually released using rising times (can you add that feature for sidereal please, Valens and Morinus have only tropical ones) in zodiacal order (unlike primary directions).

The bound lords were taken into account as Time Lords and the conjunctions, square and opposition rays of the malefics, the Sun or the Moon were thought to be especially dangerous and life-threatening if no benefic intervenes. Therefore the Predominator was used both in the length of life as well as noting general good periods.

Presumably some 5 years after becoming 26 year old (Venus bound of Taurus) are less challenging than the few years before it. Because Venus rules the X and is closely configured with the Predominator, it probably involves an important change in occupation. And I strongly suspect you got into some more serious affair at 28 years old and that you got close friends as a result from this or occupation, educated and talkative people.

And to further illustrate predomination for the Lot, if you follow me (because of angularity) or Serapio (because of ''sect'') you will have the Lot of Fortune in II instead of XII.

Hi petosiris,
sorry for late answer.

I added Aldebaran 15 and now I'm trying to add rising times ... but I actually don't know much about rising times :innocent:

I found this page:
http://cura.free.fr/quinq/01hand.html
with a "tutorial" how to calculate rising times using R.A. (right ascension), Declination, A.D. (ascensional difference) and O.A. (oblique ascension)

Is "R.T." column what you want? Or do you need rising times in another format/another system?
There are several other systems on that cura.free.fr website and I'm not sure which one to choose.
(if "R.T." column is what you want, I could try to convert it into sidereal)

===
Coordinate Table for the Beginnings of the Tropical Signs for 40 Degrees North Latitude

270°-60° Tropical Longitude

Long. 270 | 300 | 330 | 0 | 30 | 60
R.A. 270 | 302.18 | 332.09 | 0 | 27.91 | 57.82
Decl. -23.45 | -20.16 | -11.48 | 0 | 11.48 | 20.16
A.D. -21.34 | -17.94 | -9.81 | 0 | 9.81 | 17.94
O.A. 291.35 | 320.13 | 341.9 | 0 | 18.1 | 39.88
R.T. 28.78 | 21.77 | 18.1 | 18.1 | 21.77 | 28.78


90°-240° Tropical Longitude

Long. 90 | 120 | 150 | 180 | 210 | 240
R.A. 90 | 122.18 | 152.09 | 180 | 207.91 | 237.82
Decl. 23.45 | 20.16 | 11.48 | 0 | -11.48 | -20.16
A.D. 21.34 | 17.94 | 9.81 | 0 | -9.81 | -17.94
O.A. 68.66 | 104.24 | 142.28 | 180 | 217.72 | 255.76
R.T. 35.59 | 38.04 | 37.72 | 37.72 | 38.04 | 35.59

In the table given above we have the following: The first row marked "Long." contains the tropical longitudes of the beginning of each sign. The second row marked "R.A." contains the right ascension of the beginning of each sign. The row marked "Decl." is declination of the ecliptic degree at the beginning of each sign. The row marked "A.D." contains the ascensional difference of the beginning of each sign. This will be explained shortly. The row marked "O.A." contains the oblique ascension of the beginning of each sign. This will also be explained shortly. And last the row marked "R.T." contains the rising times of the signs which begin at the designated longitude.
===
 

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JUPITERASC

Well-known member

Great site. Thanks for sharing :)
Does it also have options
for Sidereal Astrological Charts?
I refer you to the following comments posted earlier on this thread :smile:

well :D ... I think it depends on what kind of "Sideral option" is suitable for traditional astrology?

I checked some sidereal options and:

1) "True" sideral chart with different size of each constellation/sign; +including Ophiuchus constellation would be pretty big deal and it would take incredible amount of work :/

2) To take the tropical chart;
keep 12 signs of the same size;
and shift it by Ayanamsa should by pretty easy.
If this case would be suitable?,...
what calculation method of Ayanamsa should be used?
Is Fagan-Bradley method ok?
:)
There are so many ayanamsa :smile:
Raman ayanamsa gets good results according to reports on other traditional threads

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=828371&postcount=63
so if I may
I would request Raman ayanamsa



It's done
:)
https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/traditional-astrology

I found Raman, Lahiri and Khullar ayanamsa calculation formulas.
If someone would know by chance Fagan-Bradley formula, I could also add it. (I couldn't find this formula anywhere :/)
kaktuzz you're a star, Siriusly multiple thanks :smile:

Fagan-Bradley at 200CE 24° 44' 12"
at 1950 CE 24° 02' 28"
DELTA -00° 15' 48"
SPICA VIRGO 29° 06' 05"
ALDEBARAN TAURUS 15° 03'
GEN Sagittarius 05° 15' 48"
GC Sagittarius 02° 04'
table of the more common ayanamsas
scroll down at
http://www.lunarplanner.com/siderealastrology.html
 
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