The Twelfth House

RaptInReverie

Well-known member
Greybeard,

Have you been reading the thread? How about re-reading the first couple of posts. :sideways:

I should be sick and imprisoned according to you. I am neither, nor do I regularly visit prisons, hospitals, or monasteries. I've lived through both Mars and Saturn transiting my 12th with my Sun and Venus. I am still here and have very few enemies.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
I can understand that "Saturn is in his joy in the 12th House." But some of the meanings and manifestations of Saturn posited there are a bit less than joyful.

On the other hand, Jupiter in the Twelfth can bring joy, as when "help comes from unexpected places." Bobby Fischer, the incarcerated and subject-to-extradition chessmaster, was rescued by Iceland.
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Well, Reverie, now I have read to the top of the page, and see that you thrice asked the same question, and once gave the Twelfth House a "spiritual" meaning while denying its more material manifestations.

I don't disagree with your spiritual assertions. I do disagree that the Twelfth is not the house of sorrow and all those other rather inconvenient unpleasantries.

You say that the unpleasant things the Twelfth may bring are only projections of our fears.....First, the Twelfth is the house of Fear and Second, the entire destiny of a man is nothing more than the projection of the inner self upon the outer world. The whole horoscope is a portrait of the individual psyche, the Cosmic Mind made Flesh in an individual.

I might also point out that we cannot divorce the spiritual and the material. They are one. Our only vehicle for spiritual manifestation is the physical. Without this body we have no means of expression. It is through the travails of the human form that our spiritual self awakens and transcends.

What does a horoscope, as a whole, depict?

It portrays a Moment. Your horoscope is not your horoscope, but is rather the charting of a Moment. You were born in that moment, and are of the nature of that Moment. And in fact, you ARE that Moment, made manifest. You are the Spirit made flesh. The horoscope is not specifically about you; it could be that an earthworm or a thought came into being at the exact same time and place, and those too --according to their natures -- are also that Moment and share in its nature.
 
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RaptInReverie

Well-known member
Greybeard,

I understand and respect everything you're saying. And, hey, you've got much more experience in Astrology than I do. But, no one is answering "why" they believe this is what the twelfth house represents. Everyone keeps stating what they think it is, but will not explain why.

If you consider what percentage of the population has significant twelfth house placements, it's absurd to attribute this house to sorrow and other unpleasantness. Sure, sorrow is part of human existence, but we do not experience sorrow any more or less than anyone else does. I have met people with "good" natal placements who have experienced much more sorrow and self-undoing.
 

StillOne

Well-known member
In addition to Saturn (yod apex) and my Moon, I also have the South Node posited in the 12th. Does anyone know how that may be interpreted? I'm thinking that I'm bringing past spiritual experience into this incarnation and will use it increasingly as my service (6th house North Node) to others. Saturn is actually conjunct my South Node here... which means the North Node "boomerangs" my Saturn apex Yod.
 
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RaptInReverie

Well-known member
StillOne,

The North Node in the Sixth House or in Virgo
Source: Gina Lake, Symbols of the Soul

The South Node in the Twelfth House or in Pisces
Source: Gina Lake, Symbols of the Soul

Saturn in the Twelfth House or in Pisces

Many with this placement of Saturn are drawn to serving those confined in institutions. This may be to assuage their own fear of being confined, dependent, incapacitated, mentally ill, or helpless from having experienced these conditions in a former lifetime. Their service in these areas also may be a way for them to repay service that they received from society when they were dependent or incapacitated. Those with this placement, especially those who have been mentally ill in the past, are afraid of being engulfed by their emotions and of losing their identity.
Source: Gina Lake, Symbols of the Soul

[multiple quotes from same source and quote over 100 words against forum rules - Moderator]

Does this resonate with you? Unfortunately its approach is in accord with the traditional meanings of the twelfth house, but at least it does so utilizing karmic explanations. I thought you might find it interesting. :smile:
 
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StillOne

Well-known member
Thanks Rapt! Yes, I definitely do resonate with most of those descriptions... except for paragraph one about the Saturn position. I identify more with paragraph 2 (I copied everything to my notes as I'm sure the Mods will come and delete most of that due to their rules). I think in my case, karmic debt is more fitting. However, I'm unsure of it's origin and nature at this point. Service, particularly spiritual or psychological is something that I strongly identify with. The last few sentences in paragraph 2 of the Saturn position are brilliant! Thanks for sharing that information. I'll make sure to revisit and contemplate!

I hope the OP gets a chance to read that before it's taken down... Otherwise he/she can PM me to get those particulars.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Traditional astrology is what it is. People who practice it to the exclusion of other forms are pretty well stuck with its teachings. On the other hand, even a committed traditionalist will look at the entire chart and generally find other positives in it. Also in traditional astrology, the sun isn't the "real me" point, so much as the first house.
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Reverie

If we take the Twelfth House as the last house in a progressive series representing a cycle, any cycle, with the First House as the point of emergence or beginning, we have come to the point of Disintegration. "Have you heard of the wonderful one-hoss shay, That was built in such a logical way, It ran a hundred years to a day, And then of a sudden it — ah, but stay.... " All things carry within them, from birth, their own destruction; the Twelfth House is the final destiny of the seedling which sprouted in the First House, Flowered in the Tenth, and now is the Seed carrying the next generation within itself. But in order to bring forth this new life it must die, be dissolved, cast off the outer shell. To a physical being these things are painful, for they entail the Loss of Self to something greater.

The Twelfth House is not only Imprisonment and Bondage, but is also Liberation and Release. This is that.

From the Bhagavad Gita come these words, which may be relevant: "There is the pleasure of following the right path which leads to the end of all pain. What seems at first a cup of sorrow is found in the end immortal wine. That pleasure is pure; it is the joy which arises from a clear vision of the Spirit."

Have you read Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl? It is the recounting of his experiences in Auschwitz, which he survived to tell about. It is a book about the Twelfth House and its contents. You might enjoy it.
 
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StillOne

Well-known member
I can potentially see that if you were unaware of astrology and your 12th house planets/aspects that it could be a dangerous house along the lines of the definitions given by traditional astrology...
 

RaptInReverie

Well-known member
Greybeard,

In traditional astrology death, decay, loss, and inheritance are eighth house matters. Were the houses to be taken as progressions in a series, the eighth house would signify the conclusion. Of course it doesn't, and naturally it is followed by four more houses, two of which definitely do not equate to the consummation of one's existence on the physical plane.
 

sandstone

Banned
it is tricky to talk about what the 12th house means without discussing the nature of house systems to an extent.. when someone says they have a planet in the 12th, another astrologer may perceive it being more in the 1st then the 12th.. without specifics, all the examples have a built in house system bias that might get in the way of a better understanding of all this..

disclosure : i tend to see the sign on the ascendant and any planet in this sign as first house in nature.. i suppose the further away from the ascendant degree will change this some, but overall this is my take on what the 1st house is, not what the 12th house is.. for me the 12th is going to be a different sign then the ascendant sign.. thus i am using a whole sign house, or equal house system as my guide..

also, for me venus in the 12th is positive in many regards and would overturn ideas around the idea of the 12th having something to do with enemies.. if you think of someone standing behind you that you can't see - i think this is where the idea of the 12th being a house of hidden dynamics comes from... venus in a hidden spot is a net positive, as opposed to a negative it being a 'benefic' planet either way.. these are just some random thoughts and others will see it differently..
 
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MSO

Well-known member
The 12th House isn't the last House, fellow astrologers. The planets move backwards (clockwise) through the houses, technically the 2nd house is the last one. To say the 12th sums up everything or is some soul evolution house is garbage. To further drive the point home, the zodiac, and the houses, are a circle with no beginning or end. The first house is only the first because we say so. We can put the number 1 on any house we want and go from there.

Anyways, according to Tobey, it's Gemini and not Pisces that is the final culmination of all things learned throughout the zodiac (in fact, Pisces is only second-to-last as it pertains to the introverted signs, meaning even Virgo has a higher presence). And since 99.999999999% of you believe 12th = Pisces, this would mean your thoughts on the 12th being "final" or "the end" are just wrong. Likewise, linking spirituality to a house that embodies imprisonment and hidden enemies is a bit whacky. And if you feel that the 12th does not signify that which is imprisoned, feel free to read a few more charts with 12th house placements and let me know how it pans out.
 
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StillOne

Well-known member
i tend to see the sign on the ascendant and any planet in this sign as first house in nature.. i suppose the further away from the ascendant degree will change this some, but overall this is my take on what the 1st house is, not what the 12th house is.. for me the 12th is going to be a different sign then the ascendant sign.. thus i am using a whole sign house, or equal house system as my guide..
Thanks James,
I've contemplated my Saturn apex Yod in the 1st house, as well, and have come to the conclusion that it's nature is quite similar there as it is in the 12th. I wonder how the OP feels about this?
 

sandstone

Banned
thanks stillone,

mso

the fact is the planets are moving in both directions - up from the ascendant towards the midheaven - diurnal motion of the earth rotating on its axis from west to east, and celestial motion - thru the (tropical or sidereal) zodiac ( as seen via the 'plane of the ecliptic' which is actually earth rotating around the sun) from one sign to the next.. this creates a degree of confusion to anyone new to astrology.. generally more emphasis is given to the earths movement around the sun, then the daily motion on its axis from west to east which appears to be why the houses are numbered the way they are and not the other way around.. one could easily number then the other way though and get some interesting insights too..

i like carl payne tobeys writing and unique insights.. perhaps he was working with the idea that gemini is the 12th sign to cancer which is the ascendant in the thema mundi chart that some astrologers from a very long time ago used for a chart for the planet..
 
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MSO

Well-known member
thanks stillone,

mso

the fact is the planets are moving in both directions - up from the ascendant towards the midheaven - diurnal motion of the earth rotating on its axis from west to east, and celestial motion - thru the (tropical or sidereal) zodiac ( as seen via the 'plane of the ecliptic' which is actually earth rotating around the sun) from one sign to the next.. this creates a degree of confusion to anyone new to astrology.. generally more emphasis is given to the earths movement around the sun, then the daily motion on its axis from west to east which appears to be why the houses are numbered the way they are and not the other way around.. one could easily number then the other way though and get some interesting insights too..

The house system is not the zodiac. You don't use the zodiac when you're arranging the houses except when you're using whole sign, and then that's only to anchor the houses into place, the motion of the planets in the zodiac is irrelevant to houses.

The simple way to resolve it is to look at your birth time. If you were born 3 hours later, do your planets move forward through the houses, or backwards?
 

MSO

Well-known member
the numbering of houses is arbitrary.. the important key to understand is "movement" taking place on a number of levels and directions..

Which is contrary to the motion of the planets in the zodiac. Therefore, numbers or no, the houses do move backwards.
 

sandstone

Banned
to say houses move backwards is to suggest the houses are moving, lol.. it is the earth that is moving on it's axis.. the houses are a division of space along the ecliptic as perceived from earth.. either the houses are moving or the earth is moving.. take yer pick..
 
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