chart reading, trying to learn more about 12th house

B

brookeashley

Active member
Hello,

I used to spend a lot of time reading about astrology a few years ago. I am recently getting back into it. I have attached an image of my chart.

My sun is in Leo in the 12th house opposite Saturn. I'm quite reserved when meeting new people, but can be very outgoing once I'm comfortable. I definitely do not come across as what Leo's are commonly described as. I'd like to learn more about this placement and aspect. Any reading of my chart would be greatly appreciated! Thank you ahead of time.
 

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mahaira

mahaira

Well-known member
Hi brookeashley,

I too am a Leo with a strong contact between Sun and Saturn (conjuction).
In my case, this aspect played out in the following way:
I had no father and no knowledge of who he was until I was about 24.
I have a strong sense of duty and responsibility up to the point where you could say that I burden myself with responsibility for myself and others. It also affects my self-confidence and I'm somewhat of a late bloomer.
How is this aspect affecting you?

In my experience people who have Sun-Saturn contact have some sort of difficulties with their fathers (absence, lack of interest from him, father imposing too much responsibility...) and their self-esteem could be more or less seriously affected by it (especially if Virgo is prominent in their chart, I have a Virgo Moon).

Your Sun is also affected by two strong aspects:
conjuction with Chrion and a squre with Pluto.

I'm sure you read a lot on the subject of the Sun in the 12th house, so I'll point out certain peculiarities.
I mentioned conjuction Sun-Chrion, because childhood trauma can be further underline with this placement, like bullying.

The Sun-Pluto contact is always about being in control and it can go further and reach manipulative behavior. It gives intense natures, even when the placement itself waters it down a bit. Just because you do not use the same way to express the intensity of your nature as some other people do, it doesn't mean that it's not there. doesn't not mean that it's not there. It can even get pushed on a subconscious level, making your actions difficult to control, leading to negative thought patterns and (self)destructive behaviors. Again, this aspect too speaks of the possibility for some kind of abuse.

When all of this is happening in the 12th house, there's a lot of work to be done to bring to light and become aware of the patterns that were created at some point in your childhood, but that can prove to be detrimental further in life.
It is a house of all that is hidden (secrets, lies, sub-conscience, hidden enemies...) and all that can hide you (hospitals, prisons...), that's why it is best to try to bring things into the light where you can see them what they really are.

People with these placements who get a rug pulled from under their feet, often do not accept that certain patterns of thought and behavior have led to this, they just don't "see" it.

With Sun in the 12th there is a tendency to accept the position of a victim, feel powerless, sacrifice for others and lose sight of oneself. This is another extreme on the spectrum.

There is always a possibility to use the aspects for the better.

Sun in the 12th gives a possibility for rebirth, therapy, counseling... and once you overcome your own problems you can help others and have a healthy attitude towards yourself. The energy of Pluto can also be used for rebirth, therapy... once the person overcomes its lower tendencies (control, manipulation). Chiron is a great teacher and we can always help others more with the problems we have than ourselves. So, it's all about perspective and hard work.

Generally speaking, there are certain themes in your chart that keep showing up (and I wander how they are manifested in your life): over-responsibility, feeling of duty, (self)destructive patterns...

Hope this helps, although I'd have more questions to ask you :)
 
K

katydid

Well-known member
brookeashley said:
Hello,

I used to spend a lot of time reading about astrology a few years ago. I am recently getting back into it. I have attached an image of my chart.

My sun is in Leo in the 12th house opposite Saturn. I'm quite reserved when meeting new people, but can be very outgoing once I'm comfortable. I definitely do not come across as what Leo's are commonly described as. I'd like to learn more about this placement and aspect. Any reading of my chart would be greatly appreciated! Thank you ahead of time.
Click to expand...

Interesting for me to see your chart. I have spent a lot of time studying a chart from August 9th, 1992, with the Moon in early Capricorn. The planets are all in same sign and same degrees as yours, except for Sun/Moon degrees.

My daughter plans to marry a young man born the day before you, and I have been studying his chart , kind of obsessively. lol :ninja:

I think he is a very good person, and my daughter is truly happy with him and she does not see any major red flags :love:.... but as a Scorpio Mom, I have to scour his chart for potential issues...:bandit:


I read some of the comments you made about your chart, and about yourself, to see what similarities there were.

LG has Sag rising and Virgo on the MC, so your houses are different and that has an impact. But there are still many similarities, like the major aspects.

One thing I found interesting was your comment about college not really being your thing. My future son in law feels the same way. He did attend a year or so of community college. But he was able to get a very good job, in the same trade as his father. And it is steady union work, with very good wages, and he has been at it since age 19. He makes more than most of his friends, who have 4 years of college debt to repay, and few have very steady jobs on top of that. He is content with it, but wishes it was more creative.

I think his Mercury sextile Mars in Gemini helped set up that work opportunity for him, in spite of that opposition to Saturn in his 3rd.

You mentioned your love of writing Science Fiction. LG loves reading and especially loves reading Science Fiction and Historical Novels/Biographies. He always has a book nearby. I attributed it to his Mars in Gemini trine his Saturn in the 3rd, sextile his Mercury in the 9th.

I have asked him if he likes writing and he always says NO, not at all. Which kind of surprised me. My daughter is a writer and I thought they might have it in common.

But I think his Sun/Chiron opposed Saturn, square Pluto rears it's head here:

He says he feels uncomfortable writing, like he does not feel confident that he has anything profound enough to say. [mercury opposed Saturn?]
[Sun/Chiron opposed Saturn?]

He is very quiet and kind of introverted until he gets to know you. Now I see him as fun, animated and very humorous and intelligent. But when new people are with us, I see him being more introverted and shy. He listens and stays engaged in conversation but is quiet.

He does not have the Sun in the 12th, like you do. But he has Pluto, the apex of the t-square in the 12th. So he has that 'deep' persona that you spoke of. He seems to be a deep thinker and can digest intense and complicated issues. :alien:


I am curious how the Sun/Chiron will play out as time goes on in their relationship. It has just been 2 years and I hope it stays as positive as she feels it is now. :smile:



His Venus/Jupiter in Virgo straddles his MC @ 10 Virgo. Which trines his Moon @ 9 Capricorn in his 2nd. I think that helps explain his lucrative, steady union job which he works with his father and brother.
 
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B

brookeashley

Active member
mahaira said:
Hi brookeashley,

I too am a Leo with a strong contact between Sun and Saturn (conjuction).
In my case, this aspect played out in the following way:
I had no father and no knowledge of who he was until I was about 24.
I have a strong sense of duty and responsibility up to the point where you could say that I burden myself with responsibility for myself and others. It also affects my self-confidence and I'm somewhat of a late bloomer.
How is this aspect affecting you?

In my experience people who have Sun-Saturn contact have some sort of difficulties with their fathers (absence, lack of interest from him, father imposing too much responsibility...) and their self-esteem could be more or less seriously affected by it (especially if Virgo is prominent in their chart, I have a Virgo Moon).

Your Sun is also affected by two strong aspects:
conjuction with Chrion and a squre with Pluto.

I'm sure you read a lot on the subject of the Sun in the 12th house, so I'll point out certain peculiarities.
I mentioned conjuction Sun-Chrion, because childhood trauma can be further underline with this placement, like bullying.

The Sun-Pluto contact is always about being in control and it can go further and reach manipulative behavior. It gives intense natures, even when the placement itself waters it down a bit. Just because you do not use the same way to express the intensity of your nature as some other people do, it doesn't mean that it's not there. doesn't not mean that it's not there. It can even get pushed on a subconscious level, making your actions difficult to control, leading to negative thought patterns and (self)destructive behaviors. Again, this aspect too speaks of the possibility for some kind of abuse.

When all of this is happening in the 12th house, there's a lot of work to be done to bring to light and become aware of the patterns that were created at some point in your childhood, but that can prove to be detrimental further in life.
It is a house of all that is hidden (secrets, lies, sub-conscience, hidden enemies...) and all that can hide you (hospitals, prisons...), that's why it is best to try to bring things into the light where you can see them what they really are.

People with these placements who get a rug pulled from under their feet, often do not accept that certain patterns of thought and behavior have led to this, they just don't "see" it.

With Sun in the 12th there is a tendency to accept the position of a victim, feel powerless, sacrifice for others and lose sight of oneself. This is another extreme on the spectrum.

There is always a possibility to use the aspects for the better.

Sun in the 12th gives a possibility for rebirth, therapy, counseling... and once you overcome your own problems you can help others and have a healthy attitude towards yourself. The energy of Pluto can also be used for rebirth, therapy... once the person overcomes its lower tendencies (control, manipulation). Chiron is a great teacher and we can always help others more with the problems we have than ourselves. So, it's all about perspective and hard work.

Generally speaking, there are certain themes in your chart that keep showing up (and I wander how they are manifested in your life): over-responsibility, feeling of duty, (self)destructive patterns...

Hope this helps, although I'd have more questions to ask you :)
Click to expand...

I also have a strong sense of duty. I would say I'm much more self disciplined than most people. I take on things for myself and others and don't even realize I'm stretching myself thin until I get physically ill. I can't say I'm a late bloomer. I took on many aspects of adulthood around the age of 15. I also got my first job when I was 13 and worked full time most of high school.
My dad passed away when I was 4. He was an alcoholic. He wasn't abusive and I loved him very much. He sure did put my mom through the rounds emotionally though. In the last couple of years, I have been experiencing anger and resentment towards him for how his drinking affected my mom. He died in a drinking and driving accident. He was evading police and it ended badly. I always felt a sense of responsibility to fill his shoes as best I could. Try to play parent and really help my mom out. In times where I felt like I couldn't, and many times I couldn't, it greatly affected my self esteem.

Regarding the sun chiron conjunction, I consider losing my father the way I did and when a trauma but I also went through trauma/abuse at the age of 5 so that is interesting to know. I plan on researching this conjunction more.

I can relate to some parts of what you said about Pluto/sun. I love investigating and trying to find the answer to everything. It can become obsessive and this can sometimes be self sabotaging. I am definitely controlling sometimes. I'm not proud of it. It has a lot to do with anxiety. If I feel in control, I feel less anxious.
My interests change frequently, but when I'm interested in something, I put all my time and energy into it and learn it inside and out. Does this have something to do with the Sun Pluto aspect? Thanks for your input!
 
B

brookeashley

Active member
katydid said:
Interesting for me to see your chart. I have spent a lot of time studying a chart from August 9th, 1992, with the Moon in early Capricorn. The planets are all in same sign and same degrees as yours, except for Sun/Moon degrees.

My daughter plans to marry a young man born the day before you, and I have been studying his chart , kind of obsessively. lol :ninja:

I think he is a very good person, and my daughter is truly happy with him and she does not see any major red flags :love:.... but as a Scorpio Mom, I have to scour his chart for potential issues...:bandit:


I read some of the comments you made about your chart, and about yourself, to see what similarities there were.

LG has Sag rising and Virgo on the MC, so your houses are different and that has an impact. But there are still many similarities, like the major aspects.

One thing I found interesting was your comment about college not really being your thing. My future son in law feels the same way. He did attend a year or so of community college. But he was able to get a very good job, in the same trade as his father. And it is steady union work, with very good wages, and he has been at it since age 19. He makes more than most of his friends, who have 4 years of college debt to repay, and few have very steady jobs on top of that. He is content with it, but wishes it was more creative.

I think his Mercury sextile Mars in Gemini helped set up that work opportunity for him, in spite of that opposition to Saturn in his 3rd.

You mentioned your love of writing Science Fiction. LG loves reading and especially loves reading Science Fiction and Historical Novels/Biographies. He always has a book nearby. I attributed it to his Mars in Gemini trine his Saturn in the 3rd, sextile his Mercury in the 9th.

I have asked him if he likes writing and he always says NO, not at all. Which kind of surprised me. My daughter is a writer and I thought they might have it in common.

But I think his Sun/Chiron opposed Saturn, square Pluto rears it's head here:

He says he feels uncomfortable writing, like he does not feel confident that he has anything profound enough to say. [mercury opposed Saturn?]
[Sun/Chiron opposed Saturn?]

He is very quiet and kind of introverted until he gets to know you. Now I see him as fun, animated and very humorous and intelligent. But when new people are with us, I see him being more introverted and shy. He listens and stays engaged in conversation but is quiet.

He does not have the Sun in the 12th, like you do. But he has Pluto, the apex of the t-square in the 12th. So he has that 'deep' persona that you spoke of. He seems to be a deep thinker and can digest intense and complicated issues. :alien:


I am curious how the Sun/Chiron will play out as time goes on in their relationship. It has just been 2 years and I hope it stays as positive as she feels it is now. :smile:



His Venus/Jupiter in Virgo straddles his MC @ 10 Virgo. Which trines his Moon @ 9 Capricorn in his 2nd. I think that helps explain his lucrative, steady union job which he works with his father and brother.
Click to expand...

Wow! That's crazy we're only a day apart. A lot has changed in my life since my old posts that you read.

I did end up going to college and graduating with a bsba in accounting. I did it primarily for security and a back up plan. Not necessarily to kick start a career. Having my son made me want to finish even more. After my old posts, I became self employed and was for about 4 years. I just graduated this past summer. I don't write anymore but have had many thoughts recently about writing again.

I can relate to a lot of what you say about your soon to be son in law. Very interesting.

Regarding the part where you mentioned he feels uncomfortable writing like he doesn't have anything profound to say, this is me in social situations where I don't know people well. I feel uncomfortable and anything that I think about saying seems not so great. The topic has to really be an interest of mine for me to contribute to a conversation. I struggle with small talk. Small talk does not come naturally. Does this sound like your son in law?
 
mahaira

mahaira

Well-known member
brookeashley said:
...
My interests change frequently, but when I'm interested in something, I put all my time and energy into it and learn it inside and out. Does this have something to do with the Sun Pluto aspect? Thanks for your input!
Click to expand...

Thank you for your reply!
I can see how many of the aspects have manifested themselves.

I'm sorry you lost your father and had to go through abuse. But life can and does get better.

What you wrote about learning things inside and out once you get interested IS this Plutonesque quality very close to obsession. However, for this quick loss of interest I'd look at the Mars in Gemini (I have that position too, so I know what I'm talking about :wink:, but mine is in the 7th house so my husband is like that too ). It can be exhausting. So, your Pluto in the 3rd house can be used to your benefit, because that placements gives an opportunity for transformation with a penetrating mind capable of grasping complex facets of reality.

And, when I said I was a late bloomer, I meant when it came to joys of life. I too played mother to everyone around me, including my own. Actually that's from whom I learned that pattern and inherited the Sun-Saturn contact. She herself has had it, only an opposition. She and her siblings were abandoned by their father.
Does any of your parents has this contact?
 
B

brookeashley

Active member
mahaira said:
Thank you for your reply!
I can see how many of the aspects have manifested themselves.

I'm sorry you lost your father and had to go through abuse. But life can and does get better.

What you wrote about learning things inside and out once you get interested IS this Plutonesque quality very close to obsession. However, for this quick loss of interest I'd look at the Mars in Gemini (I have that position too, so I know what I'm talking about :wink:, but mine is in the 7th house so my husband is like that too ). It can be exhausting. So, your Pluto in the 3rd house can be used to your benefit, because that placements gives an opportunity for transformation with a penetrating mind capable of grasping complex facets of reality.

And, when I said I was a late bloomer, I meant when it came to joys of life. I too played mother to everyone around me, including my own. Actually that's from whom I learned that pattern and inherited the Sun-Saturn contact. She herself has had it, only an opposition. She and her siblings were abandoned by their father.
Does any of your parents has this contact?
Click to expand...

Thank you!

I'll have to look more at Pluto. Like I said, I'm just getting back into astrology so I have plenty more to catch up on and learn.

My dad had Saturn conjunct sun and moon in the 8th house in Taurus. I always wondered if and how these aspects related to his early death.
My mom has Saturn square sun aspect. My dad's father was an alcoholic and not around consistently. My mom's parents are still together. My mom greatly respects her dad although he has limiting views of women that have negatively affected her. My sister doesn't have a sun/Saturn aspect.
 
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K

katydid

Well-known member
Brookeashley posted:
Regarding the part where you mentioned he feels uncomfortable writing like he doesn't have anything profound to say, this is me in social situations where I don't know people well. I feel uncomfortable and anything that I think about saying seems not so great. The topic has to really be an interest of mine for me to contribute to a conversation. I struggle with small talk. Small talk does not come naturally. Does this sound like your son in law?



YES. That sounds very much like him, in terms of disliking 'small talk.' My daughter once told me, before my husband and I were going to meet him for the first time, that his 'pet peeve' was trying to make small talk. She told me he gets awkward or uncomfortable doing that, but likes to discuss relevant issues, or common interests.

He is very articulate and perceptive, but is a man of few words. However, when he speaks, people listen and it is usually profound and spot on. Must be that Leo influence of power/authority.

You both have that very interesting riddle in your charts, of having the strength of the Leo grouping and the Pluto square, which indicates self confidence and magnetism and charisma--- while at the same time having the Saturn opposition, which is a lack of self confidence and
feelings of insecurity. It is a real gift to have those nice Earthy squares from Cap to Virgo, to help stabilize and strengthen those inner uncertainties by building a strong internal foundation.
 
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