Cruelty ... in a natal chart

chris10

chris10

Well-known member
astro11 said:
Hope the following list helps :smile:

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Belliard,_Daniel

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Leahy,_Paul

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Strack,_Richard_Ludwig

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hatcher,_Charles_Ray

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Connors,_David_B.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Garcia,_Alain (out of sign square)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bernardo (no birth time but birthday given)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Homolka (no birth time but birthday given)
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Daniel Belliard
So, the ruler of his 8th of sex is Neptune in his 3rd –he picked up his victims while
they were hitchhiking or walking down the roadways.
The ruler of his 8th house, Neptune, is in hard aspect with almost everything in his
chart. Ruler of his 10th and 3rd houses is venus squaring the ruler of his 9th mars …
he became notorious for these actions…
Sun is ruler of his 12th opposes moon in his 12. He also has jupiter and pluto
in 12th.
I also notice a very close saturn - IC conjuction displaying the harsh home
environment.
Mars ruler of the 8th conjucts the ruler of his 5th house saturn…he raped and
killed young girls. Both of these planets conjuct his IC, cold, harsh,
violent early upbringing.

Richard Ludwig Strack
Ruler of the 10th Sun conjucting the MC. He needed
to “shine” at any cost?
Venus conjuct mars in cancer in the 8th house... Freud stated
that people have a compulsion to repeat the past and to recreate
essential conflicts that existed in childhood. ...the 8th is the 2nd
water house super emotional, super sensitive.
Lilith conjucts his DESC and squares his IC.
Chiron is in his 7th house closely squaring the ruler of his 8th
Mercury.
Uranus aspects every other planet in his chart, he has an Aquarius IC
showing that he may have been a rather detached personality making it
easier for him to commit murder.
 
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fullmoonlibra

fullmoonlibra

Well-known member
I'm an interesting research for this topic, cause my venus is elevated, so I seem nice to people, but my IC is conjunct Pluto. That's my dark, cruel side, nobody can see from outside.
I believe cruelty has to do with fourth house issues.
I have scorpio at the cusp with saturn rx and uranus rx in the house.
And unfortunately my Mars is in Capricorn and badly aspected and focal point of T square from moon opposite mercury.
My tongue is sharp too, with mercury in aries in 8th house and pluto in third.
My moon libra and venus taurus are saving me from being a cruel person I guess, and makes that I'm only cruel to myself :(
Or is it sun opposite pluto?
 
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chris10

chris10

Well-known member
Sentient0ne said:
A very interesting thread. One online definition of cruelty is:

cruelty [ˈkruːəltɪ]n pl -ties1. deliberate infliction of pain or suffering
2. the quality or characteristic of being cruel
3. a cruel action
4. (Law) Law conduct that causes danger to life or limb or a threat to bodily or mental health

Cruelty is acting in a deliberate fashion in a non-consensual manner, inflicting pain or suffering upon another.

I had no intention for this thread to get so personal but that's Ok...
it will help me not be misunderstood...

I consider myself extremely cruel once someone has harmed me, my family or friends deliberately, I will hurt them ten times more than they have.
It's a matter of justice to me.
I have been Cruel and Unforgiving in 4 cases:
1) a family member who hurt me emotionally, not deliberately though, since his weakness caused the break-up of our family.
2) an acquaintance who hated me, never understood what fueled that hatred, I never did anything to harm her, I'm sure of that...
I do my job/lead my life, quietly, never intrude, mind my own business...hell, sometimes I wish I was invisible...then she came along and "poked my eye out"...well in that case, I did not only "poke her eye out, I poked Both of hers"...Everyone asked me why I didn't attend her wedding ceremony
:innocent: I just revealed her actions and had the evidence to
back me up...she was soo embarrassed ...
she avoids me to this day :lol:
3) when I was a teenager I punched my classmate cause he was torturing a cat...don't know his whereabouts today. He's probably married and takes out his hatred on his kids.
4) in my mid-twenties I threatened my friend's husband when my friend came to my house to spend the night because she was beaten up by him. I called the police on him too. I hate that b*****d to this day.
I am cruel after someone has messed with me/family/friends,
there are people who are cruel just for the fun of it, who bully others just for the laughs of it.
If I ever saw these people again, cases 2,3,4
I would feel the need to show them my contempt.

That's the/my cruelty I am talking about.
Some people are more forgiving and just let go...
I can't ...
I was just wondering why,
astro wise.


This can be done verbally or physically. It affects both individuals. The victim will have scars that may alter them and affect them for life. The perpetrator will suffer from guilt or a deep and painful 'something' that they can't quite remember.

Guilt ...? Yes, but only towards the 1st case I mentioned.
I think the only reason I started this thread is cause I'm looking for some kind of redemption, I'm trying to understand the cause.
In the other 3 cases ... guilt? ...no way...

Either way, there is a flaw in how people relate. It may be difficult to define in a chart. One has to view the chart in relation to the environment of the individual. There are defiinte chart indicators that can point to cruelty, but if an individual has those indicators, yet has never touched the negative energy of it, will it actually manifest in their life?

We hear about cruetly/abuse as being common amongst those who's abuser was abused. If we see someone's chart with a Pluto/Mars hard aspect, we might assume a powerful indicator of cruelty/abuse. I can see that energy assuming many avenues, depending on other indicators/transits etc, AND what the prevalent pressures in life have brought those individuals. That energy can be very negative - http://theastrologyplace.blogspot.com/2011/09/astrology-of-child-abuse-and-murder.html - or very positive -
Examples of people with Mars-Pluto aspects:
- Hillary Clinton is one of those persons who has Mars afflicted with Pluto and Moon. These are indications for ambition. She also has the ascendant on the midpoint/ - Sportsman have Mars-Pluto aspects often, like Willem van Hanegem and Ruud Gullit (both sextile), Rinus Michels (opposition) and famous international Johan Cruijff (very narrow Mars trine Pluto): the drive to win. (from http://astropost.blogspot.com/2008/04/mars-in-aspect-with-pluto.html).
A certain aspect between two planets doesn't make us "do" anything. As you said, the energy is there, and there are so many ways one might use it.

So it comes down to the fact that the energy is there. If you nurture it a certain way, it may manifest that way. Nothing is certain, but there tends to be correlation to this in many articles I've read.

I can be cruel. I know it. I've been verbally cruel, and physically. In my defense, much of it comes with a consensuality. I respect the website and it's guidelines, so won't share more than that. Send me a message if you wish to know more. But mine comes from a Scorpio moon, unaspected except for a wide opposition to my Sun in Taurus. That Scorpio energy is harsh. I have Saturn in Scorpio as well. A harsh task master at best. Both oppose my Sun, the fundamental me. I've said things and done things that are cruel. I'm controlling and have been manipulative. It's part of who I am. I've found an outlet that allows me to express that without hurting anyone.

It's going to happen. We are imperfect in our search for perfection. It's how we handle that, whether we are the perpetrator or victim. I've been on both ends of it. Not anywhere near as severe as many people I know.

I saw one of the links provided on a previous response. The two names at the bottom were very familiiar to me. Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka. I was living in Canada at the time this all took place. They weren't even an hour away from where I lived at the time.

Again, a caution in finding specific indicators that point to 'cruelty' yet could be a blessing as well.

:sun:/:taurus: :moon:/:scorpio:
Click to expand...


Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle
Plato



 
Sentient0ne

Sentient0ne

Premium Member
The thing about sharing a thought or feeilng is that everyone will interpret it according to themsevles, who they are, what they're feeling or thinking at the time. It's not a judgement or lack of understanding. It's simply what they read at that moment and how 'where they are' in life allows them to interpret it, at that moment.
You had a desire to express what you did at the time and place that you did.
But each of us reads it with our 'rose colored glasses'. And we throw out what we feel or think at the time.
I just realized that you're aware of that. I gift/challenge of mine.
Thank you for allowing a glimpse into you.
I read your words and realized that we're not all that different. I just haven't had the opportunity/need to confront people for the offenses they have committed. I can be very unforgiving. That's very much my Scorpio moon. it only has one major aspect, Moon opposite Sun. It's a wide orb but I had someone confirm how critical it is in another post earlier today.
Cruelty is somewhat subjective. What one finds cruel is nothing to another. We all seem to have a similar baseline.
Please feel free to ask anything, anytime. I'm far from perfect, but I do love to discuss life and passion. It's what makes the world what it is
Take care!
 
astro11

astro11

Well-known member
SentientOne, my family also lived close to Bernado. My parents lived a couple of blocks away from his Scarborough home and my aunt worked in his workplace building in the late 1980s when he did the crimes- very scary thoughts.
 
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astro11

astro11

Well-known member
fullmoonlibra said:
I'm an interesting research for this topic, cause my venus is elevated, so I seem nice to people, but my IC is conjunct Pluto. That's my dark, cruel side, nobody can see from outside.
I believe cruelty has to do with fourth house issues.
I have scorpio at the cusp with saturn rx and uranus rx in the house.
And unfortunately my Mars is in Capricorn and badly aspected and focal point of T square from moon opposite mercury.
My tongue is sharp too, with mercury in aries in 8th house and pluto in third.
My moon libra and venus taurus are saving me from being a cruel person I guess, and makes that I'm only cruel to myself :(
Or is it sun opposite pluto?
Click to expand...

I have Scorpio on the 4th house cusp and Pluto is making an exact conjunction within 2 minutes to the cusp. I'm definitely not cruel! I have a sharp tongue due to my partile Mercury-Mars conjunction and I do speak out when people are being unfair or discriminatory to myself or others but I never do it just to hurt people's feelings. I feel that if I don't say or do something about the problem, I am letting it continue and other innocent people will be victims in the future. Arguments need to have sufficient intensity to make the perpetrators remember what you said but I try my best not to cut too deep. Even when people are really irritating, I never get pleasure from deliberately hurting them, it occurs when I'm really angry or frustrated, not calculated at all. In contrast to you mentioning it being evil and dark, this aspect gives a lot of depth to the emotions and a penetrating insight into other people's emotions and motivation, I would think that makes one more human and compassionate.
 
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T

themermaidvenus

Member
It depends what we are seeing as cruelty.is this coldness? or violence?

I have mars squares pluto,i have read that this is a usual aspect of cruelty.i have very violent thoughts,but at the same time i am scared to death that someone can be violent to me.I am normaly not violent or agressive to people.The people say about me pretty much the opposite,that i am kind and angel-like.And i take my time to react to things.Normally,before i get agressive,the other person has pissed me off for long.my mother once said she had raised a monster,because some days after my wedding i stopped talking to my parents because i was mad because they went trying to control me.All my life i had showed them i did not like this type of control ( saying how i should dress) and they always ignored.the other time,the only one i was physically agressive was against a girl in school who had bullied me during an entire year.Again,before i hit her i had talk to the principal about the issue,i had talked to her.Nothing worked.About the issue with my mother,she´s moon in pisces,so i can´t say if i was really to bad ( even with reason) or if she is over reacting.That said,i must also say,we live in a very cruel world.everyone who is living in this world full of sexism,racism,etc could be considered cruel,not?
And more,it gives very cruel people who thinks they´re doing nothing wrong.What about them?
if we think about cruelty in terms of coldness i would say bad aspects of saturn are responsable.speacilly in contact with the moon.
About cruelty against oneself...i don´t know.
I have read one time that poeple with hard mars - pluto aspects can be the victims of violence also.I think,would it not be blaming the victim?
 
fullmoonlibra

fullmoonlibra

Well-known member
astro11 said:
I have Scorpio on the 4th house cusp and Pluto is making an exact conjunction within 2 minutes to the cusp. I'm definitely not cruel! I have a sharp tongue due to my partile Mercury-Mars conjunction and I do speak out when people are being unfair or discriminatory to myself or others but I never do it just to hurt people's feelings. I feel that if I don't say or do something about the problem, I am letting it continue and other innocent people will be victims in the future. Arguments need to have sufficient intensity to make the perpetrators remember what you said but I try my best not to cut too deep. Even when people are really irritating, I never get pleasure from deliberately hurting them, it occurs when I'm really angry or frustrated, not calculated at all. In contrast to you mentioning it being evil and dark, this aspect gives a lot of depth to the emotions and a penetrating insight into other people's emotions and motivation, I would think that makes one more human and compassionate.
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And thàt's the reason why I should become novelist :love:
The penetrating mind, depth of emotions and my psychology study must need for something :joyful:

So you are right, the elements in someone's chart that could be clues for cruelty, can also be used as an advantage.
 
Vagabondgirl

Vagabondgirl

Well-known member
I don't think that a natal chart and its aspects makes someone "cruel". Also I don't think anyone is predominantly cruel... Usually it has its reason from issues within yourself, then reflected upon the world outside you.

Aspects in the natal chart affect an individual in different ways depending on their maturity, life experience etc... And the whole chart all together. I would think that difficult aspects with mars and perhaps personal planets like sun, moon, mercury can show itself as aggression, especially with the hard aspects. Mars has some of those qualities for the outward aggression. Maybe also saturn in hard aspects to personal planets give another way of cruelty like being silent and giving people a hard time in other ways, hard work and so on. Pluto also has some traits of cruelty I guess... In a more deep, controlling, manipulating way.

Also one should consider the planets in which sign and houses. Different signs have different negative stuff... Overeating and indulgence would be more like a trait of a venus ruled sign (Libra, Taurus), verbal abuse is a mercurian thing (Gemini, Virgo), taking drugs is a negative trait of neptune (Pisces) and the list is long.
 
Vagabondgirl

Vagabondgirl

Well-known member
I think the worst... and maybe also one of the best aspects of my chart is Pluto conjunct Mercury (chart ruler) in scorpio in the 6th house. I can get really dark thoughts and dreams sometimes of death, disease and horrible things, at times strong obsessive thoughts about these things and it may feel as if my mind will litterally destroy my whole body.

On the other hand it helps me in my studying medicine and human psychology, which is some of my great passions. When I was younger (child) I could become very revengeful, intense and jealous of others because I had a difficult family situation and childhood. But later after growing a bit I try to learn to control and calm my mind a little bit. Sometimes your worst enemy can be your best ally, if used correctly. Everything is energy, also hatred.
 
astro11

astro11

Well-known member
fullmoonlibra said:
And thàt's the reason why I should become novelist :love:
The penetrating mind, depth of emotions and my psychology study must need for something :joyful:

So you are right, the elements in someone's chart that could be clues for cruelty, can also be used as an advantage.
Click to expand...

My major for my undergraduate degree was psychology, I loved it and did really well. I've seen a lot of people with Pluto conjunct the 4th doing some form of counseling and/or research in their career (Pluto is making an opposition to 10th too) because of the deep seated need to constantly question things, search for the truth by probing under the surface and discovering the "reality". I think it is great for being a novelist too because of the sharp insight into other people's real emotions and motivations that are often hidden, even to themselves.
 
blacksun?

blacksun?

Well-known member
Veronica said:
Liz Greene wrote a book called Dark of the Soul : Psychopathology in the Horoscope. In which covers sort of this subject. moon in bad aspect with Saturn could be a cause, also moon square mars can make a person very impulsive. Jeffrey Dahmer had moon in Aries, Ted Bundy has moon-conjunct mars, But you can also see the chart of Josef Mengele and he has a water grand trine and Cancer Rising and Pisces Sun... you could assume from his chart that he is a very creative, empathic, person but he did some terrible heinous thing in the Nazi Concentration Camps. So its complex to assume every person with mars-pluto is cruel or mars-saturn moon-mars can be cruel... or moon-saturn too cold.
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Hi Veronica.

Mengele has a Uranus-Mars-Fortune conjunction opposite Neptune and square Saturn.
That goes WAY beyond anything the moon could comprehend or deal with.

Mars Uranus alone is enough to engage in violence just for fun. This opposite Neptune means that one is utterly deluded about what one does. Mars/Uranus square Saturn is a very great frustration and willingness to do a lot to get rid of that.

He also has moon opposite Venus which might mean "pleasure in the wrong places". Oh yeah and a tight quintile from Mars to Pluto.... capable of anything.
 
blacksun?

blacksun?

Well-known member
Ted Bundy has Uranus opposite Moon/Mars.

He also has Jupiter square Pluto. This gives him the "right" to murder, in his own mind.

Jeffrey Dahmer has Uranus in the 10th harmonious to his moon.

I think that a Uranus is as good an agent of cruelty as Mars - both have zero regard for anything but force.
 
Aeryn

Aeryn

Well-known member
Interesting subject.

I have Mars/Jupiter and Saturn sitting in 3rd (Virgo), with Saturn squaring Sun/Neptune.

Physically I would never harm anyone. With words...

My communication style is confident, honest, open and direct. When I'm at my best I am poetic, sensitive and choose my words very well (Moon/Merc in Sag/5th).

In discussions however, when someone is taking too long to get my point, I get irritable and harsh and my tone can get very... harsh. Sometimes I like to shock with the kind of truth that people don't normally talk about. Sometimes just for comedic release (I'm good at that!), sometimes in an attempt to finally get through to someone (with a hammer) and sometimes to simply make something perfectly clear by stripping it of all sugar-coating effects. And sometimes out of principle, to break taboos. (That particular aspect of myself I instinctively link to my Uranus singleton in Scorpio. It's the stinger coming out to vanquish ridiculous traditions to create (5th) a better world for future generations!)

With that honesty I of course make myself vulnerable. Not comfortable with that (hardly any water), unless I completely trust that the person I'm talking to won't go into fight or flight mode, meaning attack me while vulnerable or leave me.

If I don't feel safe, then I am very indirect to the point of not talking about the issue at all or giving hints that hardly qualify as such. In fact I'd rather not talk at all to people I haven't welcomed into my trusted circle. On a few occasions the frustration got so big that I ended up writing lengthy emails with all the truths that I hadn't dared say in person. Never out of spite and always well written, as a last ditch effort to shake someone up. "If they walk away: good riddance. If they can handle it then our friendship will be better for it." Very tough love. Not everyone has recognized it as such...
 
ashriia

ashriia

Well-known member
astro11 said:
My major for my undergraduate degree was psychology, I loved it and did really well. I've seen a lot of people with Pluto conjunct the 4th doing some form of counseling and/or research in their career (Pluto is making an opposition to 10th too) because of the deep seated need to constantly question things, search for the truth by probing under the surface and discovering the "reality". I think it is great for being a novelist too because of the sharp insight into other people's real emotions and motivations that are often hidden, even to themselves.
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a little off topic, sorry.

I have pluto in the 4th in libra.. I am am interested in counselling work, i also write. I had never heard of Pluto in the 4th leading to work in counselling. thanks!
 
ashriia

ashriia

Well-known member
Vista said:
Very interesting!! I think the common domonimator based on their natal charts, they all had abuse in their childhoods. Of course many people suffered abuse in childhood and this would obviously be the worse case scenario for an outcome.
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back on topic.

it might be a novice type question but are you basing the childhood abuse on saturn being in the 4th house? and if so are there aspects that point to what type of abuse?

i guess, uranus being in the 3rd is also indicative of abuse in the early environment?
 
Aeryn

Aeryn

Well-known member
ashriia said:
I have pluto in the 4th in libra.. I am am interested in counselling work, i also write. I had never heard of Pluto in the 4th leading to work in counselling. thanks!
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Me, too! Pluto in 4th (not on the cusp) in Libra. Learning to be a psychological coach.
 
Skywomb

Skywomb

Well-known member
ashriia said:
a little off topic, sorry.

I have pluto in the 4th in libra.. I am am interested in counselling work, i also write. I had never heard of Pluto in the 4th leading to work in counselling. thanks!
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But perhaps the Ascendant/1st house Pluto? "Todays" astrology is so obsessed with the 1st/ASC and MC/10th and naming that as the point of so many important things..... but you know the 7th and 4th............oh guess what connected to em. And they hold their **** own.
 
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