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  #51  
Unread 02-02-2012, 11:24 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

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Originally Posted by Kannon View Post
The answer is Uranus. Astrology deals with the sky and its contents. Uranus is a sky god, not Pluto.

Natal charts for astrologers - Angular Uranus with plentiful and/or flowing aspects.
Good point. Uranus is just a Roman name for a primordial sky god. (Cf: Urania as the muse of astronomy and astrology.) The name means "heavenly."

Pluto was the god of the underworld. He got out occasionally, but there was nothing celestial about him.

However, the underworld does have a big pull on the human psyche, which is something astrologers can address.

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  #52  
Unread 02-03-2012, 01:25 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

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Originally Posted by Kannon View Post
Pinning this aspect to astrologers (and 'wizards') is far too specific, and as sandstone noted, it fails to appear in many known astrologer's birth charts. Now if the statement had been 'angular aspects between Mercury and Mars assist the wizard and astrologer' it would have been more credible. That shows up in my chart: Mercury Parallel Mars. But neither of these planets 'make' an astrologer. More often they predispose someone to writing or talking incessantly and craving debate.

Plenty of astrologers have gotten non-credible statements published. Older or more 'traditional' statements don't mean they are more credible or accurate. Older isn't better, its just older.
You're right, of course, in that there will be plenty of people who are not astrologers who have Mercury and Mars angular and aspecting each other, just like there are plenty of people who are not astrologers (nor wizards, lol) who have Uranus angular and with plenty of flowing aspects. I was only repeating what a famous astrologer had written.

For myself, I have Uranus angular (in 1st) conjunct Mercury (and Sun and ASC) both squaring Mars (angular) in 4th. So maybe if I study hard enough...

Older isn't better, but if something as magnificent as the art of astrology has survived for as long as it has, then perhaps older had a bit to do with it? The wheel is pretty old, and we've gotten quite a bit of mileage out of that one...in fact, my car still has them.
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  #53  
Unread 02-03-2012, 03:06 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

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Originally Posted by Nexus7 View Post
I think he is profoundly sexist, yet I would say it goes deeper than that, it seems to me he never questioned the patriarchal biasses of his time, which is steeped in ideas of conquering Nature, spirit overcoming matter and all the rest: the worst excesses of patriarchy, in other words.

It might have something to do with the fieriness of his chart, supported by air, and I suspect that natal Moon square Uranus may have a lot to do with it too: as Liz Greene notes at length these two bodies do not make comfortable bedfellows and she should know: she had an opposition between Moon and Uranus herself.

And this ties in drectly with the topic of this thread: what aspects 'make' for an astrologer and the difficulty in reconciling these bodies, if many astrologers have these aspects, may be why this patriarchal world view seems to inform so much astrological thought.

Of course Rudhyar was a disciple not just of Nietsche, but of Bailey and Blavatsky too, and it seems that there is something of this spirit in the channelled entity and entities that spoke through these two as well. I think. Again, women of the times: Victorian repression would have been tough to counter, but I do find it interesting that this entity is now currently speaking through too American women, allegedly, and that both these women were sexually abused as children. It is worth remembering that Bailey tried to commit suicide 3 times as a child, once as early as the age of 5 and I am sorry, but I find it hard to imagine that committing an act like this would just come out of the blue.

So with out without a hard Moon/Uranus aspect, here are guru figures, mentor figures who once again appear to have a damaged connection to the Feminine.

When I first encountered astrology, almost everyone I met seemed to be influenced by these sources exclusively, whereas now this is not so the case. At the time though these things did make me feel that this was not a good place to be.
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Re: Our Internet Freedom Threatened by Secretly Negotiated Copyright Treaty

The creation of a balanced reality/world/society/government is now dependent on the ending of what has been a long progression of polarized collective energy described by many as the "Age of the God or Patriarchs",that followed the "Age of the Goddess's or Matriarchs".Moving forward we will have to pull the lessons learned from both(good & Bad if that's the way you perceive it), that a great number of very diverse contributions can add to.As far as i know,the return to "FEMININE" principles of nurturing the planet which provides us with nurturing/sustainability has to return to what has been at this point a "MALE" principle of dominion with practical/logical justifications that were once reasoned as just and now has progressed to the point of not sustaining life if it continues.


BALANCING THE POLARITIES WILL MEAN A RETURN TO INNOCENCE.
http://youtu.be/9-EJV47-Ltw ENIGMA Not in a limited sense of regression folks.

I just posted this above & i see it as a key element in any astrology of the future having relevance at all.The union of polarizing qualities working in Harmony for a new cycle of life,and of man/woman-KIND.It will also IMO, propel astrology to a new dimension of an evolutionary consciousness that has not existed up to this point since the separation of the genders.Jeff Green's material in conjunction with Rudhyar's are indispensable in these studies...IMO,There is so much more to Rudhyar's material that deserves introspection than a few ideas that may have been extrapolated without deeper study.

My Moon-1aries con DC 7th-
square Uranus-2cancer conMC10th
square Sun-4CapIC 4th
opp Mars-0Libra conAC 12th

N Neptune 17Libra 1st ......con SN-opp NN
sextile Pluto 17Leo 11th
sextile Chiron 15Sag 3rd
trine Venus 14Aquarius 5th
square Mercury 23Cap 4th


Transiting Uranus in conjuncting my Moon has given me tools & a lifetime of observation/insights(cardinal Grand Cross) a forum for movement within myself & the collective that would not have had any import if the previous 3 years had not emptied my "Chalice" with the Pluto conjunct Sun on my cross.A renewed interest in Astrology has deepened my life/world in so many ways........

I am at a loss if this is interpreted as sexist.The lessons of my Cross & subsequent Pluto transit has transcended such a limiting modality.
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  #54  
Unread 02-03-2012, 03:08 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

Some of us enjoy the detective work of figuring out origins of things. Retrospectively, it helps a lot of subsequent developments to make sense.

Astrology in particular seems to rely so heavily on a repeated "deposit of faith" passed down through the centuries.

Mercury as the traditional ruler of astrology seems to come from the Sumerian goddess Nisaba or Nidaba, who was replaced by a series of male gods culminating in Hermes/Mercury. Intriguingly, she sounds a lot like Virgo, a Mercury-ruled sign.

According to the "hymn to Nisaba" "He (Enki (?)) approaches the maiden Nisaba in prayer. He has organised pure food-offerings; he has opened up Nisaba's house of learning, and has placed the lapis-lazuli tablet on her knees, for her to consult the holy tablet of the heavenly stars."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisaba
http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section4/tr4161.htm
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Unread 02-03-2012, 03:18 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

Michael, if it is direct quotes from Rudhyar you want about his sexism, Nexus or I could provide them upon request.

After devouring Rudhyar's books some years ago, after a while, I just found his "jacked-up and glazed-over" approach to astrology to be really unhelpful. His idea of "man's" soul cycling through the signs or houses as some kind of evolutionary process just didn't make much sense to me. And no, I am not some kind of Philistine.

Moreover, I think most people get into astrology or ask for a reading because they have real issues to address in their lives. Reading stuff about "man's" soul passing through the crucible of Scorpio or somesuch isn't going to explain why they are 40 and still single; or why their kids never phone home.

Jeff Green doesn't seem to get a lot of his material from astrology. He seems to intuit it, but I don't think he is always correct. Remember the big epidemic of 2004? Me either.

The soul as I understand it cannot possibly be equated with Pluto, as Green argues.
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  #56  
Unread 02-03-2012, 03:30 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

I am so sorry you have such a limiting perspective of Astrology.The fact that humans & the rest of nature have a medium to be understood & worked with for a myriad of reasons is phenomenal.

I DONT GET YOUR ALLUSION TO THE PHILISTINES !

Could you elaborate?

Of course,intuition is an abstract principle for you.

Last edited by Michael R; 02-03-2012 at 03:33 AM.
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  #57  
Unread 02-03-2012, 04:16 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

Michael, would you kindly let me know if your latest is intended as a personal attack? If so, I will report it to the moderators.

"Philistines" is often used as a metaphor, which is how I intended it.
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  #58  
Unread 02-03-2012, 04:21 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
You're right, of course, in that there will be plenty of people who are not astrologers who have Mercury and Mars angular and aspecting each other, just like there are plenty of people who are not astrologers (nor wizards, lol) who have Uranus angular and with plenty of flowing aspects. I was only repeating what a famous astrologer had written.

For myself, I have Uranus angular (in 1st) conjunct Mercury (and Sun and ASC) both squaring Mars (angular) in 4th. So maybe if I study hard enough...

Older isn't better, but if something as magnificent as the art of astrology has survived for as long as it has, then perhaps older had a bit to do with it? The wheel is pretty old, and we've gotten quite a bit of mileage out of that one...in fact, my car still has them.
Not to divert the thread, but Again, older isn't better, just older when it comes to the flat wheel chart. This chart displays only longitudes (east-west movement) and is long outdated considering that anyone can watch the movements of the planets north-south. The flat wheel chart has never been an accurate depiction of the sky and yet it continues.

Rigid intolerant forms of Christianity have survived for most of 2,000 years. Doesn't make them good, better or even acceptable. People have their own reasons both personal and collective for clinging to their preferred ideas, regardless of truth or reality.

Astrology is a sky art/science = Jupiter, Uranus. It is ruled in the natal chart by the 12th house, as a subtle influence. Neptune's higher intuition fits into the interpretive ability of the astrologer, as can the Moon. Mercury is the messenger of the gods and fits into the pictures as well.

Steven Forrest, astrologer:
Sun conj Jupiter <4*>
Sun-Venus-Jupiter Contra-parallel Uranus [23N38].
Mercury quincunx Uranus.
Moon square Uranus, Venus opposite Uranus.

Robert Hand:
Uranus trine Neptune (ruler MC) <0*18'>
Saturn Parallel Uranus.

Uranus is the planetary ruler of astrology because it deals in the engineering/mathematical as well as the interpretive, besides ruling radiations and energies that fall outside the spectrum of visible light (Sun). When it gets with a personal planet or point then we can see some personal potential in doing astrology.

Some astrologers charts, unfortunately, are not exactly accurate on the Asc/MC. I won't point out individual charts, but you can't entirely judge an astrologer's chart fitness for astrology based on the Asc sign/degree they show. You also cannot get the whole picture without looking at the declinations. Many times Uranus (or any other planet of focus) will show up in Parallels and ContraParallels of declination rather than its longitude position only.
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  #59  
Unread 02-03-2012, 07:24 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
The first thing is to examine the WHOLE CHART. One degree does not an astrologer make. How about the Eighth and Twelfth Houses?

And there are many different "kinds" of astrologers.

Some are oriented toward prediction of mundane events, some toward metaphysical thought, others toward building a reputable bank account.

Some are traditional, others avant-garde. We have the natal astrologer, the electional specialist, the political thinker, the economist.... So just what is an astrologer anyway?
Good point, well made greybeard. And 'newer' is not necessarily 'better'
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Originally Posted by Claire19 View Post
Mercury is essentially neutral and takes on the flavour of the other planets connected to it
"Mercury’s nature is to contest and to destabilize"

source is courtesy of Vettius Valens http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf who practiced astrology almost two thousand years ago and furthermore kindly chronicled the works of astrologers who preceded him by at least three hundred years

More of the same from Robert Schmidt project Hindsight
http://www.projecthindsight.com/
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  #60  
Unread 02-03-2012, 08:51 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Michael, if it is direct quotes from Rudhyar you want about his sexism, Nexus or I could provide them upon request.
If we dismissed the philosophical contributions of thinkers who exhibit patriarchal (read: sexist) attitudes from any cannon of knowledge, the bookshelf of the mind would be slimly inhabited. Just because Jane Austin or the Brontes or Elizabeth B.Browning or Emily Dickinson were authors, doesn't make them feminists either.

Rudhyar obviously had issues with his own anima principles; his feminine divine in conflict, perhaps, with a sensitivity to real women that could translate into successful real-life relationship. He was married five times !!!

This personality problem of his does not deter me at all for recognizing and relating to the synthetic qualities of his intellect which did address the abstractions of our spiritual nature in the modern world.

This was his gig, and he did it well. It's anyone's business whether they think his issues are relevant to "real life". We all reside on different conceptual planes of reality, and that's fine. I do believe our areas of preferred astrological study reflect either a more Uranian or Neptunian approach to the discipline, and in Rudhyar's case both were in equal effect.

Anyone have a reading list for "feminist" astrologers who'd prefer to side-step the sexist traditionalists, and yet retain intellectual integrity in this field?

The dismissal of a philosopher's thinking because s/he's not perfectly "evolved" (in anyone's perception) is a perpetuation of simple-minded polarities that prevent astrology from being a useful tool for the evolution of us all. I'd prefer to gauge an astrologer's credibility via their consistent use of traditional methodologies, applied forward to whichever philosophical intent suits them.

It's the philosophy that's the point here, and we are free to accept or reject on a philosophical level. Reducing one's philosophy to a mundane or biographical snap-shot (s/he was a lush) to determine its validity is a dangerous case of polarizing blind-sightedness.

Moira
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  #61  
Unread 02-03-2012, 08:58 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

thanks for saying all that moira.. it is a liberated place to be coming from and it is rewarding to read here..
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Unread 02-03-2012, 09:40 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

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It's the philosophy that's the point here, and we are free to accept or reject on a philosophical level. Reducing one's philosophy to a mundane or biographical snap-shot (s/he was a lush) to determine its validity is a dangerous case of polarizing blind-sightedness.
It wasn't me who drew attention to the fact that Rudhyar divorced 4 times, however. I did not need to know that about him to sense that here was something that did not feel quite ok when I first read one of his books. Without or without that knowledge, or anything else that might seem like dishing the dirt, I actually believe that nothing should blind anyone to the possible limitations of any philosophy extolled by any potential guru.

Rudhyar pioneeered many new ways to apply astrology and I never said he didn't possess genius and insight. However, as with any thinker, I would suggest that maybe we should all retain the right to look for the wheat and see the chaff in its context. Not to retain some level of critical awareness is to end up taking on hook, line and singer every single golden word uttered by the great guru, even where later on we might realise that here was some chaff that might justifiably need challenging.

The Buddha suggested that women were unable to find enlightenment within their lifetimes, simply for being women - it took long enough for nuns to challenge that one!!
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Unread 02-03-2012, 10:01 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

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Originally Posted by fullmoonlibra View Post
Which planet influence makes someone 'more' astrologer?
Is it the investigator Pluto, who is interested in mystical things, or is it uranus?
For which reason is being an astrologer uranus - related?
And which placements makes someone more or a better astrologer?
Is it pluto in 3rd house?
Jupiter in 8th house?
Aquarius on cusp of seventh (which is better: aquarius on ascendant or on descendant?)
Pluto and Uranus in aspect to the sun?

Which are other aspects and configurations that show or you are a good astrologer or not?
I had this question on mind too as I've often wondered how much of Occult can I really MASTER. My psychic abilities are there but need some polish but previous hand on divination worked better than I ever imagined.
The good points here are Jupiter in 8th & even Pluto on the cusp of Scorpio which adds to the taboo exploration for me & an intense interest in the taboo subjects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miquar View Post
That's interesting. I have Moon in Scorpio and Sun at 27 degrees Aquarius.

I have a very strongly placed Uranus and an angular Pluto. I think that they each contribute something to my involvement with astrology. Actually, I think my Uranus side tries to control my Plutonian side through astrological study. But I also feel that my Plutonian fascination with the hidden side of life is also very much part of the picture for me. I think a Uranian person would just have a different approach to astrology than a Plutonian person, but neither is necessarily better than the other. Since we all have both planets anyway, its probably more a case of which one takes the lead in defining why we value astrology.

From what I've seen, airy people are more likely to get interested in astrology.

Uranus is connected with astrology because Uranus symbolises the urge to understand the principles which underlie manifest form. Such understanding opens us to ideas which are not circumscribed by our current ways of living, and so astrology enhances the potential for Uranian liberation and progress.

I don't think that there is any particular aspect that makes anyone a better astrologer necessarily. It is an art that we all approach as individuals. Any astrologer could point to features of their chart that they value more than others with regard to practising astrology, but ultimately bringing out the best in every part of the chart is the way to become the best one can be, whether this involves practising astrology or not.

I quite like my Mercury in Aquarius trine Uranus as I feel it working when I'm looking at charts. But if I'm honest, I think it holds me back from developing a more intuitive and empathic approach. Nothing in excess, as the Ancient Greeks used to say.
A comfortably goading one..love it. Dominant air, so I really have hope. Mercury dominant that's a counted blessing. Uranus aspects to Venus/Moon present don't know if those count.
But water Sun/Asc really do give a psychological edge over others.

Overall I see some happy scope for myself here.
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Unread 02-03-2012, 11:16 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

Moira, I take your point.

Actually, the fields of women's studies and gender studies get far more complex than a discussion of Dane Rudhyar's take on the moon, or whether Jane Austin was/was not a feminist. [Actually, for her period and place, Austin was a path-breaker, as there were major prejudices against women writing for public consumption at all. See Elaine Showalter, A Literature of Their Own.]

If people read Dane Rudhyar and get something out of him, that's fine. I did at one point in my studies, also. Thankfully I discovered other thoughtful modern astrologers who didn't have antidiluvian ideas about femininity, like Robert Hand (his early books), Stephen Arroyo, Stephen and Jodie Forrest, and a lot of Liz Greene's books (although her earlier stuff on mothers seems straight out of Freud's playbook.)

Each of us should become a connoisseur of what we read in astrology, and part of this process is developing a clear sense of one's personal tastes. After a while, I just found Rudhyar's books to be cotton-candy for the soul, sexism aside. There are far more enlightened thinkers on spirituality than Rudhyar IMO, although they don't write on astrology so far as I know.

Surprisingly I found Avelar and Rebeiro's book, On the Heavenly Spheres-- a recent primer in traditional astrology, to be gender-neutral. Recommended for anyone interested in exploring traditional astrology.
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Last edited by waybread; 02-03-2012 at 11:19 PM.
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Unread 02-04-2012, 12:26 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

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Originally Posted by Nexus7 View Post
Rudhyar pioneeered many new ways to apply astrology and I never said he didn't possess genius and insight. However, as with any thinker, I would suggest that maybe we should all retain the right to look for the wheat and see the chaff in its context. Not to retain some level of critical awareness is to end up taking on hook, line and singer every single golden word uttered by the great guru, even where later on we might realise that here was some chaff that might justifiably need challenging.
Nexus; I completely agree with you, particularly with the bolded thought. I don't grant the title "guru" to anyone ever, as we're all representatives of our thoughts born out of and manifested in our humanly flawed, yet fantastically unique biographies. What is "guru" for my pathway in life, is certainly not specifically applicable to anyone else -- therefore I believe that the concept of "god" or "guru" is a highly individualized ability to listen to oneself with one's inner-soul ear.

Astrologers, all: How many of us are cautious to share that THIS is "what we do" with our talents and energy? It is part of our shared biographies that we'll meet resistance from many of our near and dear ones. Are we "wacky" because others' perceive us so ? Certainly not. We're driven to achieve all we possibly can from this amazing field of study which is only rewarded with status in few, select global locales. That some astrologers put their Saturn to the wheel in order to get their ideas out there -- beyond our intimate astrological forums -- is the harder work, and I think the most important work of all. That astrology is generally not condoned in our modern cultures is a true litmus test of how much work we have to do together as an astrological sub-culture, despite our specific interests, talents and biographical "chaf".

This is the bigger picture, in my Neptunian/Uranian/Plutonian opinion.

~ ~ ~


Uranus conjunct Venus, Mars, PoF, Vesta, Regulus 9th
Neptune trine Sun 12th to 8th
Pluto trine Saturn 10th to 2nd
Moon at Yod apex 5th conjunct Nodes, trine Mercury
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Unread 02-04-2012, 12:58 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

Thanks for reading/listening Sandstone.

Waybread, thanks for meeting my mind here. As a feminist Lit/Art major it was important to me to distinguish between the "act" (women publishing) and the enculturated "thoughts" presented (often traditional). What I found/find most significant is not the gender identity, but the soul identity expressed in anyone's work.

This is a larger question of intent in astrology. How do we each attempt to connect with one another in our lives ? I do agree with Michael's post regarding the necessity of a new aeon of fluid gender identity, and think that astrology is the most likely field to assist in breaking down the barriers once and for all.

As ever, Moira
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Unread 02-04-2012, 03:06 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

Hi Moira-- For sure we need to consider dead authors as creatures of their times. How could they be anything else? If some were ahead of their time or expressed thoughts that resonate with us today, then it's a gift to us. If some of them wrote in ways that seem prejudiced within the context of, say, the early-mid 20th century, then I think they are fair game.

I've been studying astrology for over 20 years, which makes me a definite newbie compared to some of the village elders here who have been studying astrology for far longer than that. Speaking from my personal experience, I think we go through stages in our astrological study-- as we should. By analogy, the courses that a student struggles with in first year seem easy and perhaps simplistic compared to 4th year studies-- or beyond.

Right now I see a lot of structural problems with astrology. We still don't know why it should work, and I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation beyond divination. But then, how does divination work? A lot of astrology is simply based upon a "deposit of faith" going back to ancient times. Yet historians of ancient astrology have pretty well demonstrated that much of this "deposit" was based upon religious or philosophical ideals, not on astrologers sitting down with hundreds of clients and coming up with delineations based upon consultations or trial-and-error. (See Tamsyn Barton, Ancient Astrology. Vettius Valens, Anthologies might be the one exception.)

Because astrology has been an "orphaned" discipline for a lot of its history, it doesn't have a lot of critical standards for evaluating its truth claims, so far as I can tell, other than astrologers' subjective positions and experiences.

In terms of soul-centred astrology, I personally think that a chart can indicate a the soul's goals in incarnation, and notably its challenges and assets. I just don't think this works the way Rudhyar suggested.

For example, I just pulled off my shelf Rudhyar's The Astrology of Personality and more or less randomly turned to his material on the houses, ecapsulated on pp. 181-185 He gives both traditional and modern meanings of the houses, but then they include stuff like, 10th house: "The mother in whom racial consciousness and the national soul are concretized." 11th house: "The Reformer's deams and efforts." 12th house: "The limiting power of the race's level of consciousness; and the rising above it by individual efforts of will occultly exerted...." Rudhyar goes on to give the houses a decidedly evolutionary flavour, where the houses indicate increasingly levels of consciousness. The goal is "the perfected human 'Individual.'"

Well, this is heady stuff. It isn't hard to get on Rudhyar's wavelength of the perfectability of Man [sic]. I understand where Rudhyar is coming from in terms of ramping-up conventional house meanings (10th is the mother, 11th is hopes and wishes for the future, &c.) I think by "race" he means the "human race", thank heaven.

But this material is so unanchored from everyday human reality; and there is no evidence that Rudhyar is correct-- unless someone chooses to create a personal spiritual discipline out of his material. Which would be fine, but if people truly want to achieve Christ-consciousness (or its equivalent in some other belief system) astrology is pretty much beside the point. Because religions and life philosophies tend to give a one-size-fits-all prescription.

Most people who want their charts read wonder if they should quit their job, why their kids are troubled, or whether their BF is Mr. Right.

It is easy to dismiss such people as too materialistic and insufficiently cerebral, but I have started to think we live on the earth plane for a good reason: and it is precisely to live on the earth plane. We'll get to the ether soon enough.

(And BTW, my chart is mostly air and fire.)
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Unread 02-04-2012, 04:17 AM
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Michael R Michael R is offline
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post


But this material is so unanchored from everyday human reality; and there is no evidence that Rudhyar is correct-- unless someone chooses to create a personal spiritual discipline out of his material. Which would be fine, but if people truly want to achieve Christ-consciousness (or its equivalent in some other belief system) astrology is pretty much beside the point. Because religions and life philosophies tend to give a one-size-fits-all prescription.

Most people who want their charts read wonder if they should quit their job, why their kids are troubled, or whether their BF is Mr. Right.

It is easy to dismiss such people as too materialistic and insufficiently cerebral, but I have started to think we live on the earth plane for a good reason: and it is precisely to live on the earth plane. We'll get to the ether soon enough.

(And BTW, my chart is mostly air and fire.)
The evidence may only be visible when one has applied more than periphery observation or research.

The fact that this type of material IS unanchored from every day reality IS the problem.I do agree we live on the Earth plane for a good reason.Ones that have only recently come home to be 'owned' by me.I lived in the imagination of what it (life) could/should & maybe use to be.I wanted out of here & away from the limitations i had observed & experienced here.Now i see the relevance of being here and the journey with it's diverse potentiality.But only if it follows the cyclic progression/evolution,
whatever you want to call it,that is required to move forward for the benefit of all,which is a higher call to manifest,the collective,than the limiting Tribal or Individualistic consciousness.To improve on LIFE HERE dont you agree we could apply some Etheric/Esoteric principles to assist in this journey?To Spiritualize Matter as some have described it and with which i tend to agree.As astrology will soon be accepted as the "Mother of all Science".is it not a good medium/tool for improving on the human condition,and how do we do that if it is not inclusive of the "Ethereal"?

Religions & life philosophies absolutely can be used & abused & projected to be a one-size-fits-all in a limited application.Thats why we question these old paradigms and seek to create new ones.But we need new tools in conjunction with the old ones to create with.

It is not a sin to be materialistic as it is not a sin,nor does it detract from the mundane to want to draw upon a greater power/awareness,or want to create one if it doesn't exist, to improve on the human journey.I don't think much of the old structures but accept them as being part of the journey,but now their time is done and a new science of the "Heart & Mind" is manifesting.Maybe i'm mis-reading your words,but this is how i interpret them at this point.

So for those few clients that ask for a deeper understanding of their life problems to make a connection to their everyday life,or ask Esoteric questions,what do you draw on or how do you approach that?
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Unread 02-04-2012, 09:50 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

Waybread wrote:

Quote:
there is no evidence that Rudhyar is correct-- unless someone chooses to create a personal spiritual discipline out of his material
Couldn't the same be said of any author of religious/philosophical principles, of which astrology is one?
How many times is a particular (favourite?) astrological author recommended as reading material towards futher understanding? Wouldn't the 'personal spiritual discipline 'of the individual see the fire/air type astrologers drawn towards experience of the spiritual-theoretical ideas, the Earth types (like myself) drawn towards the practical proof of/in such abstraction of ideas, and the water types the deep(est) feelings of emotional value and empathy in such abstract ideas?

Regarding Rudhyar, I have his 'Astrology and Psychology'(transl. Dutch) and 'The Astrological Houses' (Engl.). Both are filled with references coloured in marking ink that offer(ed) understanding to my logical working mind. Yet this is the same author you find so 'unhelpful'.

Quote:
Most people who want their charts read wonder if they should quit their job, why their kids are troubled, or whether their BF is Mr. Right.

It is easy to dismiss such people as too materialistic and insufficiently cerebral, but I have started to think we live on the earth plane for a good reason: and it is precisely to live on the earth plane.
Only now?????

Michael R wrote:
Quote:
It is not a sin to be materialistic as it is not a sin,nor does it detract from the mundane to want to draw upon a greater power/awareness,or want to create one if it doesn't exist, to improve on the human journey
I can't speak for other signs, obviously, but this is something my recognises in its application towards astrology. 'Materialistic' doesn't necessarily mean only physical security. It can also mean 'awareness through the tangibility of matter'. It's the journey that must travel, even if other signs view life from their own different perspectives.
Maybe the 11* (Sandstone), Q MC-(Kannon) astrologer parts of me
needed the (Claire) to re-view, re-new, and finally change the direction of the mind?

Example: As I write this the snow crystals are slowly falling from the trees. As the Sun's rays catches them it's as if millions of diamands are falling to Earth. Almost ethereal and definitely moving in its beauty.
Perhaps 'reading astrology' is similar.

Last edited by Frisiangal; 02-04-2012 at 09:56 AM.
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Unread 02-04-2012, 06:02 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

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Originally Posted by Michael R View Post
So for those few clients that ask for a deeper understanding of their life problems to make a connection to their everyday life,or ask Esoteric questions,what do you draw on or how do you approach that?
Michael, I am an amateur, so I don't have "clients" but I have read hundreds of charts for people on this and on another astrology forum.

I think some people have a burning need to know why they are on the planet, or what is their purpose in life on an individual level. With most people, I am not sure such questions ever come up. Life purpose is given generically by their religion, their society, their family relationships, or even by a culture of consumerism.

Basically I think astrology does answer fundamental questions about one's individual life-meaning, though not necessarily in the way people pose them.

I think that purpose in a horoscope is indicated as:
(a) where our growth lies,
(b) what we are on the planet to learn and to teach,
(c) who we must be or become in order to be true to ourselves, and
(d) for some people (not all) one's sense of a calling or vocation.

(a) North Node
(b) pre-natal lunar and solar eclipses (this from Jan Spiller and Karen McCoy, Spiritual Astrology.) These eclipses are close to the lunar nodes but can be in different signs and houses. According to these authors, the pre-natal lunar eclipse indicates what you are on the planet to learn; and the pre-natal solar eclipse, what you are on the planet to teach.
(c) sun by sign and house; to a lesser extent the ascendant and moon
(d) MC, 10th house, and location of the ruler of the MC. Note that many people go through life without a burning ambition to be a doctor, or to alleviate poverty. A woman with the ruler of her MC in the 5th, for example, might most authentically pursue a hobby or be a devoted mother. However, if it is not strongly placed or is afflicted, she might not realize much satisfaction from her 5th house.

I believe that souls choose the timing, location, and circumstances of their births in order to maximize their potential for growth in key areas. They come to this challenge with specific assets and barriers to success. If achieving their goal were a real give-away, they wouldn't learn anything or become stronger.

The chart as a whole indicates the nature of these challenges, and the person's tool kit and obstacles. A well-aspected Mercury in Gemini, for example, is probably an asset and a good tool in the person's kit. Harsh aspects to the person's sun from outer planets might indicate that one of her barriers will be addressing her low self-esteem, for example.

This thesis raises troubling questions about why a soul would voluntarily incarnate as a disabled child, a war victim, or schizophrenic. Such people have the potential by example to teach compassion in others-- a quality that Planet Earth could use in greater quantity. If there is such a thing as God's plan, it is just possible that some souls voluntarily take on difficult, painful incarnations in order to further human progress. If there is such a thing as reincarnation, it is just possible that souls who take on victim identities do so either because they were perpetrators in a past life and choose to experience first-hand the kind of impact they had on their victims in order to foster their sense of compassion; or in order to manifest some triumph of the human spirit in the face of severe adversity.

Anyway, that is my take on esoteric astrology. Frisiangal, you can see how it differs from Rudhyar's. I am not saying that nobody should read or derive benefit from reading his books.

In terms of why I am only now getting my head around the concept of life on the "earth plane" as being precisely the point of living ordinary lives; you probably know the expression:

"Too soon old, and too late smart."
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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Unread 02-05-2012, 03:31 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

Our Western astrological tradition clearly (I emphasize that term, clearly) arose from the hermetic syncretism of Alexandria (deriving from neo-Platonic and neo-Pythagorean roots) But it became alienated from the hermetic world view, and cast adrift, first in the maze of Aristotelianism, then, with a movement into a "scientific based" outlook. No wonder that Western astrology seems to have no underlying world view ("philosophy")!

That didn't happen with either Chinese astrology or Vedic astrology; the various approaches to Chinese astrology always have been connected with an underlying Taoist outlook (modified somewhat by neo-Confucianism) And jyotish really cannot be understood outside of its fundamental Vedic world outlook, no matter how much one might try to cut it off from its Hindu heritage and try to make it-like much Western astrology-secular and "scientific"...
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Unread 02-15-2012, 03:17 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

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Our Western astrological tradition clearly (I emphasize that term, clearly) arose from the hermetic syncretism of Alexandria (deriving from neo-Platonic and neo-Pythagorean roots) But it became alienated from the hermetic world view, and cast adrift, first in the maze of Aristotelianism, then, with a movement into a "scientific based" outlook. No wonder that Western astrology seems to have no underlying world view ("philosophy")!

That didn't happen with either Chinese astrology or Vedic astrology; the various approaches to Chinese astrology always have been connected with an underlying Taoist outlook (modified somewhat by neo-Confucianism) And jyotish really cannot be understood outside of its fundamental Vedic world outlook, no matter how much one might try to cut it off from its Hindu heritage and try to make it-like much Western astrology-secular and "scientific"...
Nevertheless, Western Scientists do not accept astrology as a Science but instead consider astrology to be a form of divination and unscientific
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