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  #26  
Unread 01-30-2012, 10:34 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

Well, I just finished reading Joseph Crane's A Pratical Guide to Traditional Astrology, and he said Valens said that Mercury square Mars makes for wizards and astrologers...

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  #27  
Unread 01-30-2012, 11:00 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

re mars/mercury squares..

ceo carter, reinhold ebertin, deborah houlding, robert hand and william lilly don't qualify and those were only the first ones i looked at!

valens doesn't even qualify, lol....

neither does crane...

i should try to find an astrologer who has this... give me a second..

john addey has it by sign, but not by degree...

after looking at another 10 or so charts, t patrick davis has it - 11 aq to 19 taurus...

i think this signature is not all that encouraging in my quick study on it..
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  #28  
Unread 01-30-2012, 11:04 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

Just reporting it as I reads it, lol. I know nuthin' about nuthin'....
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  #29  
Unread 01-30-2012, 11:13 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

it is good tsmall! i am just knocking it down too... nothin' personal, lol... i just find this kind of stuff on the silly side, but what do i know either?

it really goes back to what has to happen for proper research to take place in astrology to knock down a number of theories which might have a basis in truth to them, but when more closely examined, don't necessarily hold up?

for me it goes back to astrology as art more then science... david cochrane the head of cosmic patterns and kepler astro software seems to think we are just at the beginning of research into all of these different theories astrologers have on a number of ideas and i like to think he is right..
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  #30  
Unread 01-31-2012, 02:15 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

I go along with an orb of 1 degree on either side of a special point (including a midpoint); using Pauline dodekatemorion (or even simple dodekatemorion, ie the 12th harmonic) of ascendants and certain natal planets, to see what degree area (3 degree arc) they hit, can sometimes be enlightening in finding "hidden" potentialities/indications in a chart.
(Greenbaum, in the translation and publication of Paulus Alexandrianus work around 2001, had expected that experimentation with the Pauline dodekatemorion-among those interested in Hellenistic astrology-would likely become extensive; however we find that very little has been done with this among the neo-Hellenists over the past 11 years-I wonder why?)
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Unread 01-31-2012, 06:44 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

hi dr farr,

thanks for your posts here and the comment you made the other night on cyril fagan on the hellenistic thread... i ordered the book your refer to a few weeks ago, so will be getting it in the mail soon hopefully.. i am really interested in it as a few people have spoken highly of it including yourself.. for those reading my comments the title and author are
late classical astrology translated by Dorian Gieseler Greenbaum

from what i have heard the pauline dodekatemorion that dr farr mentions is the equivalent of a 13th harmonic chart... harmonic charts are something i am very fascinated by, but there is very little literature on them... david hamblin and john addey have made a focus on harmonics and i know that david cochrane has as well, but only the first 2 astro authors have books out on harmonics.. fascinating stuff..

in a harmonic chart i would give a wider orb that 1 or 2 degrees which is what i think the pauline dodekatemorion is - 13th harmonic.. but i have yet to read this book, and have only looked at 13th harmonic charts with very little understanding other then from what i have read..
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  #32  
Unread 01-31-2012, 07:07 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

The first thing is to examine the WHOLE CHART. One degree does not an astrologer make. How about the Eighth and Twelfth Houses? And there are many different "kinds" of astrologers. Some are oriented toward prediction of mundane events, some toward metaphysical thought, others toward building a reputable bank account. Some are traditional, others avant-garde. We have the natal astrologer, the electional specialist, the political thinker, the economist.... So just what is an an astrologer anyway?
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  #33  
Unread 01-31-2012, 08:31 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

Quote:
Waybread :Haave you ever heard of the "astrologer's degree"? I forget if it is 14 or 11 degrees Virgo
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandstone View Post
Quote:
it is 11 virgo
and it is more of the same... now we have 4 x (11virgo/pisces or just virgo?), instead of 2 if you think 27 leo/aq is an astrologers degree.. i just think the idea of latching onto a degree point to define an activity or occupation is very tenuous at best!
Oh dear.
Does that mean I could be, would be, might be........ Am??????
Asc. is 1044. All planets bar Jupiter and Neptune(rulers I.C and Desc.) aspect it.

In the late 80's, at med. astro. school, I was able finally to correct my birth time to 8 mins. earlier of a round hour time, using 'Ebertin's Anatomical Correspondences to Zodiacal Degrees', after discovering that a physical complaint coincided exactly with the 11th degree. I have Chiron and Black Moon Lilith partile Asc. in 12.
Natal Mars (rules gall) is on the midpoint of the Asc.-Chiron-BML square Uranus (ruler 6th house).
The corrected birth time has proven its accuracy before and since.

Miquar wrote:
Quote:
Hi Frisiangal. I just wanted to say for beginners that while Uranus may reflect the archetypal structures that underpin the manifest universe, it does not have anything to do with natural rhythms in the sense of birth and death, or Spring Summer Autumn Winter, etc. Just wanted to clarify that for anyone who is just learning about Uranus. I know you're probably well aware of it yourself.

Interesting way of seeing the planets, I thought.
This was 'the understanding' through which I have always been taught ....an holistic methodology?
In explanation, I was attempting to offer the point that Uranus does not 'reflect the archetypal structures that underpin the manifest universe', which is surely Saturn orientated?
Perhaps we are thinking in different terms regarding what 'natural rhythms' imply.

The methodology comes from the medical astrology viewpoint, through which physical ailments are a consequence/result of stagnation (Saturn) and being unable to move forward(Uranus) from an old pattern(Moon and/or Saturn). This results in (internal) stress, eventual burn out and breakdown. The latter are (modern) astrologically regarded as negative qualities of Uranus.

If spirit-mind-body-soul are linked in unity then, to my way of thinking (rebellistic at its astrological best/worst....I question everything until proven), the same astrological pattern is relevant in and to all forms that make up one's daily pattern through life.

But that's just me.

Last edited by Frisiangal; 01-31-2012 at 08:37 AM.
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  #34  
Unread 01-31-2012, 12:34 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

I've mulled-over this question.
I think one's interest in astrology is Uranian, if for no other reason than Uranus does not limit its knowledge to empirical evidence.
I think its application is Plutonian ~ a strong orientation to get to the meat of a person or matter. Going deep and unveiling truths.
I have always thought the two signs (Aquarius & Scorpio) are kindred in purpose - truthseekers with endless energy to get to the bottom of things. Probing questions. Instinctive understanding of "where to go with this..."
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  #35  
Unread 01-31-2012, 02:00 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post
.



Oh dear.
Does that mean I could be, would be, might be........ Am??????
Asc. is 1044. All planets bar Jupiter and Neptune(rulers I.C and Desc.) aspect it.

In the late 80's, at med. astro. school, I was able finally to correct my birth time to 8 mins. earlier of a round hour time, using 'Ebertin's Anatomical Correspondences to Zodiacal Degrees', after discovering that a physical complaint coincided exactly with the 11th degree. I have Chiron and Black Moon Lilith partile Asc. in 12.
Natal Mars (rules gall) is on the midpoint of the Asc.-Chiron-BML square Uranus (ruler 6th house).
The corrected birth time has proven its accuracy before and since.

Miquar wrote:


This was 'the understanding' through which I have always been taught ....an holistic methodology?
In explanation, I was attempting to offer the point that Uranus does not 'reflect the archetypal structures that underpin the manifest universe', which is surely Saturn orientated?
Perhaps we are thinking in different terms regarding what 'natural rhythms' imply.

The methodology comes from the medical astrology viewpoint, through which physical ailments are a consequence/result of stagnation (Saturn) and being unable to move forward(Uranus) from an old pattern(Moon and/or Saturn). This results in (internal) stress, eventual burn out and breakdown. The latter are (modern) astrologically regarded as negative qualities of Uranus.

If spirit-mind-body-soul are linked in unity then, to my way of thinking (rebellistic at its astrological best/worst....I question everything until proven), the same astrological pattern is relevant in and to all forms that make up one's daily pattern through life.

But that's just me.
I do think structures generally come under the rulership of Saturn, but the archetypal realm, as Uranus perceives it, is not structured in the same concrete way. My point was just that Uranus doesn't in my view have anything to do with natural rhythms in the sense that we normally understand the words - these are predominantly lunar. Uranus is far removed from the mortal life of the flesh.
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  #36  
Unread 01-31-2012, 08:44 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

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Originally Posted by miquar View Post
I do think structures generally come under the rulership of Saturn, but the archetypal realm, as Uranus perceives it, is not structured in the same concrete way. My point was just that Uranus doesn't in my view have anything to do with natural rhythms in the sense that we normally understand the words - these are predominantly lunar. Uranus is far removed from the mortal life of the flesh.

Coincidentally, I just found Rudhyar's essay proposing Neptune as Astrology's ruler. Uranus is in the consciousness of distinctions, while Neptune is the consciousness of inclusion. Perhaps it requires talents of both in order to dissect a chart and keep up with continually new astrological theories (Uranus); then assimilate them into an understandable whole, which is continually open to new interpretation (Neptune).

http://www.khaldea.com/rudhyar/astro...eastrology.php


Pluto's hand in this carries a lot of weight concerning psychological and spiritual interests, which would contribute to one's purpose in using Astrology as an analytical process. But I see Pluto's rulership having more to do with the deeper/higher mystery of life, which actually is larger than the study of Astrology itself.

~ ~ ~

My first post in this forum finds some familiar and fair-minded thinkers here!

Moira
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  #37  
Unread 01-31-2012, 10:45 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

With Uranus's recent ascent on to my Moon(DC) & squaring my natal Uranus on the MC and squaring My Sun on the IC that is the recent survivor of a Pluto conjunction,i would say my interest in Astrology/science exponentially increased as well as the tools & knowledge to accompany that.

I am in agreement with Moira as to the effects of PLUTO in it's wider comprehensive qualities.Not just due to the recent transits but because of it's natal placement in Leo 11th and subsequent aspects in the Natal chart to say nothing of the progressed placements of it in the 9th to Neptune in the 11th and assorted Asteroids joining the partee.My goals using astrology besides the obvious "Know thyself",are being clarified by the moment in it's uses & science.AS i read somewhere recently in my Uranian exploits;

'ASTROLOGY IS THE MOTHER OF ALL SCIENCE"
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  #38  
Unread 01-31-2012, 10:52 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
The first thing is to examine the WHOLE CHART. One degree does not an astrologer make. How about the Eighth and Twelfth Houses? And there are many different "kinds" of astrologers. Some are oriented toward prediction of mundane events, some toward metaphysical thought, others toward building a reputable bank account. Some are traditional, others avant-garde. We have the natal astrologer, the electional specialist, the political thinker, the economist.... So just what is an an astrologer anyway?
Good point. Put a little differently, I think a horoscope says what kind of astrologer a personal would be. This could be the astrologer's focus, or it could just be a personal style.

Speaking of which (and greetings, Moira!) Dane Rudhyar seemed like a really Neptunian kind of guy. I read most of his books a while ago, and he seemed kind of out in the ether. I didn't get the feeling one could sit at the kitchen table with him and discuss specific financial or relationship problems. I think he was of a second generation of modern astrologers who came up through the theosophical movement.
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  #39  
Unread 01-31-2012, 11:04 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moira View Post
Coincidentally, I just found Rudhyar's essay proposing Neptune as Astrology's ruler. Uranus is in the consciousness of distinctions, while Neptune is the consciousness of inclusion. Perhaps it requires talents of both in order to dissect a chart and keep up with continually new astrological theories (Uranus); then assimilate them into an understandable whole, which is continually open to new interpretation (Neptune).

http://www.khaldea.com/rudhyar/astro...eastrology.php


Pluto's hand in this carries a lot of weight concerning psychological and spiritual interests, which would contribute to one's purpose in using Astrology as an analytical process. But I see Pluto's rulership having more to do with the deeper/higher mystery of life, which actually is larger than the study of Astrology itself.

~ ~ ~

My first post in this forum finds some familiar and fair-minded thinkers here!

Moira
Welcome Moira. Look forward to more posts from you. Thought this was the best post on this thread so far - concise and profound at the same time.
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  #40  
Unread 02-01-2012, 03:41 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

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Dane Rudhyar seemed like a really Neptunian kind of guy. I read most of his books a while ago, and he seemed kind of out in the ether. I didn't get the feeling one could sit at the kitchen table with him and discuss specific financial or relationship problems. I think he was of a second generation of modern astrologers who came up through the theosophical movement.
Hi Waybread and laughs regarding bold, above. ... Dane was a 3rd house Aries Sun square Jupiter 7th ... "ain't nobody's business but his own" !!!

I took a quick look at his chart -- Moon/Merc conjunct 2nd square Uranus 11th and ... square Pluto/Neptune/Mars at 9-12-13 conjunct Gemini DSC ! To bring almost all previously mentioned planetary strengths into focus here, his Moon/Merc. also trine Saturn in the 10th. No obvious positions at 11 Virgo !!

So, his curiosity about human nature represented by the Uranus square Moon, and reiterated into themes observed & shared with humanity about its nature with Mercury square the Neppy stellium out of the 6th to DSC. The prodigious quantity of material he produced, and the dedication of others to his archive, are reflected by the strength of his Saturn trine.

Rudhyar's chart:
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?w...3SzPp5_QK1yjMy

As to theosophy ... I wax that way myself sometimes ! Makes me a third generation modern astrologer ??? Maybe fourth ...

~ ~ ~

Miquar, thanks for the welcome.
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  #41  
Unread 02-01-2012, 04:20 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

Interesting, Moira! I wouldn't have imagined that Rudhyar had an Aries sun, as he seemed to treat the zodiac as an evolutionary proposition, with Pisces as the culmination.

Your link simply led to the log-in page at Astrodienst. There are several ways to post a chart here, but unfortunately what you did wasn't one of them. Usually I save a chart to my computer, then when I want to attach it to a new message, I hit the "go advanced" button (below), then "manage attachments." This should get you into wherever you save pictures on your computer, and you can browse & then upload it as a clickable thumbnail. There are probably smarter ways to do this, but this one works for me.
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  #42  
Unread 02-01-2012, 04:47 AM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

moira welcome! i hope you have fun here..

rhudyar has neptune at sun/moon midpoint( by 90).. no earth signs in his chart and sag rising with neptune exact opp his ascendant.. one could accuse him of having a fuzzy philosophy which was partly informed by the theosophists of the early 20th century..

i liked what rhudyar was trying to do, although i think a lot of people didn't really understand him that well... his book the lunation cycle was quite good in giving an understanding of the importance of this cycle when thinking of the sun moon combo in a chart..

one could say the meaning of the planets will always be much more then what astrology uses them for.. i see all the outer planets as having a connection to deeper mysteries, not just pluto.. then there is eris which is right now an even bigger mystery both for astrologers and in general..
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  #43  
Unread 02-01-2012, 06:58 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

Rudhyar got Neptune on his Sun/Moon midpoint? - that explains a lot.

Otherwise his grasp of socio/political matters seemed very Uranian to me, though I know he was more interested in extolling the virtues of some great individuality on high - his mysticism always seemed very Arian in this sense. He was originally inspired by Nietsche and his concept of an Übermensch, for example.I never got on with the more mystical side of Rudhyar, as it seemed so antipathic to all things to do with Nature and the Feminine - when I first encountered him, he really opened up questions for me in this respect. How could someone possessing such a mystical poetic spirit, such a firm understanding, betrayed through choice of word and syntax, so aware of social dynamics, also be so, somehow, biassed towards a spirituality that seemed so polarised?
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Unread 02-01-2012, 07:03 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

I should think it does not necessarily 'have' to be well-aspected Mercuries that would astrologers make, but rather close aspects traditionally-called afflictions. I heard it was aspects or midpoint pictures involving Mercury, Uranus and Saturn, for example - an awareness of patterns in particular.

As for 'modern' astrology where it does get to be treated as a 'path' to Soul, Self or whatever, then what I have found time and time again that this approach seems to attracts people with very strongly Plutonic themes in their charts - entire stelliums in Scorpio or personal palents either conjunct or in hard aspect to Pluto.
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Unread 02-01-2012, 07:48 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

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Rudhyar got Neptune on his Sun/Moon midpoint? - that explains a lot.

Otherwise his grasp of socio/political matters seemed very Uranian to me, though I know he was more interested in extolling the virtues of some great individuality on high - his mysticism always seemed very Arian in this sense. He was originally inspired by Nietsche and his concept of an Übermensch, for example.I never got on with the more mystical side of Rudhyar, as it seemed so antipathic to all things to do with Nature and the Feminine - when I first encountered him, he really opened up questions for me in this respect. How could someone possessing such a mystical poetic spirit, such a firm understanding, betrayed through choice of word and syntax, so aware of social dynamics, also be so, somehow, biassed towards a spirituality that seemed so polarised?
Nexus, I agree. to draw a finer point on it, some of Rudhyar's material comes across as incredibly sexist. Oh, well-- I suppose he was a man of his generation.
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  #46  
Unread 02-02-2012, 05:14 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

Quote:
Nexus, I agree. to draw a finer point on it, some of Rudhyar's material comes across as incredibly sexist. Oh, well-- I suppose he was a man of his generation.
I think he is profoundly sexist, yet I would say it goes deeper than that, it seems to me he never questioned the patriarchal biasses of his time, which is steeped in ideas of conquering Nature, spirit overcoming matter and all the rest: the worst excesses of patriarchy, in other words.

It might have something to do with the fieriness of his chart, supported by air, and I suspect that natal Moon square Uranus may have a lot to do with it too: as Liz Greene notes at length these two bodies do not make comfortable bedfellows and she should know: she had an opposition between Moon and Uranus herself.

And this ties in drectly with the topic of this thread: what aspects 'make' for an astrologer and the difficulty in reconciling these bodies, if many astrologers have these aspects, may be why this patriarchal world view seems to inform so much astrological thought.

Of course Rudhyar was a disciple not just of Nietsche, but of Bailey and Blavatsky too, and it seems that there is something of this spirit in the channelled entity and entities that spoke through these two as well. I think. Again, women of the times: Victorian repression would have been tough to counter, but I do find it interesting that this entity is now currently speaking through too American women, allegedly, and that both these women were sexually abused as children. It is worth remembering that Bailey tried to commit suicide 3 times as a child, once as early as the age of 5 and I am sorry, but I find it hard to imagine that committing an act like this would just come out of the blue.

So with out without a hard Moon/Uranus aspect, here are guru figures, mentor figures who once again appear to have a damaged connection to the Feminine.

When I first encountered astrology, almost everyone I met seemed to be influenced by these sources exclusively, whereas now this is not so the case. At the time though these things did make me feel that this was not a good place to be.

Last edited by Nexus7; 02-02-2012 at 05:53 PM.
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  #47  
Unread 02-02-2012, 05:38 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

often people turn to astrology to heal the wounds they carry.. we are all very similar in this regard in that we try to find an answer to our aches and pains whether it be on a physical, mental, emotional or psychic level.. in that regard one hopes astrology can help heal the wounds we all walk around with, although they might not be so obvious to others who don't k now us.... thanks for sharing nexus..
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  #48  
Unread 02-02-2012, 09:41 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

The answer is Uranus. Astrology deals with the sky and its contents. Uranus is a sky god, not Pluto.

Natal charts for astrologers - Angular Uranus with plentiful and/or flowing aspects.
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  #49  
Unread 02-02-2012, 09:48 PM
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

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Well, I just finished reading Joseph Crane's A Pratical Guide to Traditional Astrology, and he said Valens said that Mercury square Mars makes for wizards and astrologers...
Pinning this aspect to astrologers (and 'wizards') is far too specific, and as sandstone noted, it fails to appear in many known astrologer's birth charts. Now if the statement had been 'angular aspects between Mercury and Mars assist the wizard and astrologer' it would have been more credible. That shows up in my chart: Mercury Parallel Mars. But neither of these planets 'make' an astrologer. More often they predispose someone to writing or talking incessantly and craving debate.

Plenty of astrologers have gotten non-credible statements published. Older or more 'traditional' statements don't mean they are more credible or accurate. Older isn't better, its just older.
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Unread 02-02-2012, 11:00 PM
sandstone sandstone is offline
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Re: The astrologer: uranus or pluto?

hi kannon,

thanks for your comments.. i think uranus angular shows up more often and is a better choice for an astrologers signature... however it's not a foolproof signature either as many astrologers are missing this signature too.. perhaps a strong uranus might work better, but then one has to decide how one defines what 'strong' means...
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