I have found the signature for alcoholism

mdinaz

mdinaz

Well-known member
Ebenia said:
Here is a chart of an alcoholic. :) Feel free to interpret.
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I see a lot of signatures there that could trigger addictive behavior. However, that comes to the question of WHY someone drinks. I think you need several factors in place to create an alcoholic or any addictive behavior - the astrological signatures, the opportunity, and the environment. The astrological signatures we can see in the chart. The opportunity comes with transits. The environment we cannot predict and often comes down to free will - the person has to take the first step, or not.

People drink or engage in addictive behavior for many reasons. Not all signatures will be conducive to each one.

1. Traumatic events (death of someone close, PTSD from war, etc)
2. escape personal pain (depression, bad home environment, etc)
3. escape chaotic environment (bad marriage, celebrity, etc)
4. peer pressure (young person in a party college atmosphere)
5. boredom (soldier far from home and little else to do)
6. physiological problems (body is addicted to the substance even after just a couple events)

Each of the reasons above may be result of different astrological signatures and triggers. In the chart you have provided, the signatures I see as "possible" triggers but not guaranteed (still need opportunity and environment) are:

1. Uranus opposite Chiron - classic addictive behavior indicator. Escaping (uranus) of personal emotional pain (chiron), a struggle (opposition). Made worse with Chiron in Aquarius (erratic behavior, drugs, fantasy)

2. Mars conjunct Pluto square Saturn - major problems with self control, abilities to solve problems or handle stress compromised. Mars semisextile Uranus provides outlet with addiction through Chiron. Sun conjunct Pluto also in Leo, gives "poor me" syndrome.

3. Moon trine Uranus, with Moon in Aries. More open to bold, obnoxious behavior, easy release point of stress.

4. Moon opposite Jupiter - struggles with excess, can over do things or over indulge. Jupiter in Libra so maintaining balance a struggle.

5. Mars sextile Neptune, classic substance abuse signature. Provides opportunity for abuse, doesn't guarantee it, but certainly makes it much easier and more appealing.

6. Moon square ASC - highly susceptible to outside influences, negatively impacted by the outside world. Sun also sesquiquadrate the ASC, same issue, heavily impacted by outside world.


I see a lot of signatures in this chart to indicate the POTENTIAL of substance abuse. We'd have to study the transits to see if they are triggered into action. With Uranus having crossed the Moon and Pluto crossing the ASC at the very least, I'd say yes.
 
Cypocryphy

Cypocryphy

Well-known member
dr. farr said:
I can't say for certain if I would have diagnosed alcoholism (per se) from this chart-however I definitely would have noticed some significant indications for "problems of excess" here, and a significant likely psychological motivation at the root of such potential problems:
-the primary "significator" for excess-Jupiter, is high in the chart (placed highly)and is squared by the ascending degree (so-"excess" Jupiter is in conflict with the personality and bodily health, signified by the ascending degree) and is also opposed by the Moon
-Moon is in partile square to the ascending degree: an important disruptive aspect (mind/emotions signficator Moon in conflict with personality and overall bodily health-ie, ascending degree/1st house)
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This ^

That is exactly what I was going to say. I don't have the chart up above, but of particular concern was the state of Venus (emotions/social interactions), conjoined to Jupiter, the former in a state of fall. And as Dr. Farr said, you have Jupiter (operating as an exaggerating force) in opposition to the Moon (personality and temperament)—both of which are quartile the ascendant (the self and component of ego). This is a big personality and quite social, and at first I was going to say this is the man who spends a lot of time at the bar (granted I would not have red-flagged this chart as an alcoholic), but since this is the chart of a female, I would have labeled her a "party girl." She has big moods, and for lack of a better word, I would have said (did write this down) she has what can only be labeled as a histrionic temperament. [As an aside, I knew I should have mentioned this before you posted, but I was so tired last night.]

Why would this lead to drinking or someone with the potential for an alcohol problem? Well, like others have said, there are various and diverse reasons for why one comes to drink, sometimes from social situations (repeated parties in college) to boredom (the bored housewife who begins drinking to ease the malaise of house cleaning) to the person who numbs themselves. This person I would judge to be the latter. She drinks to (1) be social and (2) to clam down.

I would also have said, though it doesn't sound like it, that she can be combative when she drinks. She sounds nice, but judging from the chart, I would say she can be very difficult, especially when she drinks.

As to my signatures, she has one minor one but her chart is not one that I would put a red flag on because many others have such a situation and are not alcoholics. Maybe, just maybe, I would place a yellow flag here.

This quick analysis is approaching the chart from the standpoint of what personality and temperament indications would lead someone to use alcohol based on my knowledge of what an alcoholic is. My statistical approach makes no suppositions, and it is this reason that I think it might provide some interesting insights. The problem at the moment is that there are certain spurious factors that may account for certain patterns that could have nothing to do with alcoholism but symbolize, or represent, common life situations for these individuals. These need to be identified, and this is why I am giving myself more time to work with this research theme.
 
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Ebenia

Well-known member
Great analysis mdinaz.

I personally always thought that the Neptune at 0 degrees could indicate a karmic problem with this illusionary type of energy that Neptune provides. It might be that the energy of Neptune is worked in a paradoxical way: instead of turning dreams into reality, the reality is turned into an foggy illusion by the use of substance. So the person sees the world and the things that are wrong with her life, but instead of using her visions and dreams to make it better, they cannot cope with it and just turn the reality to something that they can live with better by dozing themselves up with a substance so nothing in the reality bothers them anymore. So instead of becoming a hero (Neptune can make one into with the use of dreams and rising from the ashes with the strength of a vision and a dream), they become the victim of their own vision. So they fight the reality and they are unable to accept it. But if they would just accept the reality and work with it and themselves (Saturn) they would be able to make it dream-like over time (Neptune+Saturn). But because they are pushing against the reality, they are never getting where they actually want to be.

I think this is the main problem with people with substance problems. That is why when people with substance problems go to rehab and actually face their problem and the reality (Saturn) with other people who have a more of an realistic and loving perspective on the reality, they start to get better and they do not need the substance anymore to dull out their own perception because they already feel better about the situation where they are in and the reality where they are in.

Anyway...a lot of thoughts, but hope it makes sense. So basically the clash of reality (Saturn) with the vision (Neptune)...and this can be seen in the chart with Neptune 0 degrees and squaring Saturn...
 
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Ebenia

Well-known member
Cypocryphy said:
This ^
This is a big personality, and at first I was going to say this is the man who spends a lot of time at the bar (granted I would not have red-flagged this chart as an alcoholic), but since this is the chart of a female, I would labeled her a "party girl." She has big moods, and for lack of a better word, I would have said (did write this down) she has what can only be labeled as a histrionic temperament.

to the person who numbs themselves. This person I would judge to be the latter. She drinks to (1) be social and (2) to clam down.

I would also have said, though it doesn't sound like it, that she can be combative when she drinks. She sounds nice, but judging from the chart, I would say she can be very difficult, especially when she drinks.
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Definitely a big personality. I went and read some part of the "symptoms" for histrionic temperament and I can definitely see parts of that in her. Definitely. However, she is not ALWAYS like that. Sometimes she is actually understanding and very likeable, but sometimes very selfish (especially when drinking).

She can be very much of a drama queen and very difficult to deal with, the ego gets absolutely massive when she drinks. She is not aggressive physically (at least not that I know of), but she is very passive aggressive and demanding and does not seem to see any wrong in herself and is unwilling to admit to anything like that. So she is definitely a difficult person to deal with when under the influence. She just does not have a lot of flexibility, she is very stubborn...She is also very jealous of others and likes to gossip...this comes off a lot when drinking, especially when getting tipsy.

When she does not drink, she loves to cook and indulge in great food, throw small "get togethers" and likes to be the center of attention in those.

But to mention, she was actually for years very good at her work. She received great compliments and always did her work really well. She was very neat, precise, excellent with learning new languages and did well in a social environment at work.
 
Yanel

Yanel

Well-known member
I wonder, are there positions or aspects in the chart that would have the complete opposite effect - making the person resistant to taking the first step in alcoholism or smoking? Yes, there can be so many different reasons for doing it but is there an aspect that would serve as a constant inner wall or a control mechanism that is so strong in someone that it turns into an unconscious force of resistance? Or just a planetary or house influence that could possibly serve in that way, not necessarily being a signature.
 
Cypocryphy

Cypocryphy

Well-known member
Ebenia said:
Definitely a big personality. I went and read some part of the "symptoms" for histrionic temperament and I can definitely see parts of that in her. Definitely. However, she is not ALWAYS like that. Sometimes she is actually understanding and very likeable, but sometimes very selfish (especially when drinking).
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Oh. I'm sure. :smile: And just to clarify, I didn't say she was histrionic; I just didn't have a better word for a lot of the character traits I saw in the chart. Sorry if I came off as slightly negative.

She can be very much of a drama queen and very difficult to deal with, the ego gets absolutely massive when she drinks. She is not aggressive physically (at least not that I know of), but she is very passive aggressive and demanding and does not seem to see any wrong in herself and is unwilling to admit to anything like that. So she is definitely a difficult person to deal with when under the influence. She just does not have a lot of flexibility, she is very stubborn...She is also very jealous of others and likes to gossip...this comes off a lot when drinking, especially when getting tipsy.
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The covetous I would associate with the state of her Jupiter and Venus, as has been previously mentioned by myself and others.

When she does not drink, she loves to cook and indulge in great food, throw small "get togethers" and likes to be the center of attention in those.
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Yes. Very social.

But to mention, she was actually for years very good at her work. She received great compliments and always did her work really well. She was very neat, precise, excellent with learning new languages and did well in a social environment at work.
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She has some really good qualities, too. That's for sure. I am sure she's a loyal friend and she's quite meticulous, which would certainly make her a good worker. She has Venus conjoined Mercury in the sign of Virgo, with Venus in a harmonious relationship with the midheaven, the latter loosely conjoined with Saturn. I think she takes her work very seriously and has leadership potential (Sun in Leo conjoined Pluto). :smile:
 
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Cypocryphy

Cypocryphy

Well-known member
Yanel said:
I wonder, are there positions or aspects in the chart that would have the complete opposite effect - making the person resistant to taking the first step in alcoholism or smoking? Yes, there can be so many different reasons for doing it but is there an aspect that would serve as a constant inner wall or a control mechanism that is so strong in someone that it turns into an unconscious force of resistance? Or just a planetary or house influence that could possibly serve in that way, not necessarily being a signature.
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Possibly. That first step would to take either the converse or the complete lack of potential signatures, and assess the state of those individuals with such astrological configurations, whether many of them have been able to journey through life without developing any addictions.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
Thanks for filling in some of the blanks Ebenia.

The chart is so interesting, given the theme of this thread, because it does not contain the "traditional" markers for alcoholism.

With Moon so predominant, it is no surprise that the life is lived on emotion.
We might also keep in mind that the Moon indicates "ups and downs": manic-depressive -- or histrionic -- behavior is certainly within the realm.

In response to Frisiangirl, yes, Neptune was there in the heavens....but it was unavailable to astrologers. Therefore to diagnose this condition (as in this chart) would have to be done without benefit of Neptune. I purposely avoided mention of Neptune in my original post on this chart for that very reason (that everyone looks at Neptune nowadays...the "signature" planet for alcohol and other drugs.)

I think it is more useful to understand the things that go into a condition, or a direction in life (such as career), and develop the capacity to synthesize the chart in that fashion rather than to look for "signatures" in a chart. In other words, if we understand what the different astrological symbols actually signify in terms of living life, rather than simply as astrological symbols, we can more effectively see the personality and thus the life.

In this chart we find a powerful accumulation of "contributing factors" that -- if we understand alcoholism -- "synthesize" into a diagnosis of alcoholism. The psychological elements are all in place here.
 
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Frisiangal

Well-known member
greybeard said:
The chart is so interesting, given the theme of this thread, because it does not contain the "traditional" markers for alcoholism.
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Hi again,

In yourpost #16, you wrote:
We must remember that not only Neptune, but in fact most of the other planets can be signals for alcoholism. Moon, Venus, Mars...
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I'm trying to understand but am still very confused.
You are saying that traditional astrology has no 'marker' for alcoholism as such; right?

From your previous posts it would seem that there has to be a harsh Moon (dependence) to account for any tendency towards alcoholistic tendencies. But how do you know that, 'by signal' Venus and/or Mars is going to lead to it? Venus could just as well refer to eating disorders; Mars to aggressive behaviour. Would there HAVE to be a harsh Jupiter or Saturn aspect
regarding excesses or coping difficulties to make 'the signal' work in one direction only?

In response to Frisiangirl, yes, Neptune was there in the heavens....but it was unavailable to astrologers. Therefore to diagnose this condition (as in this chart) would have to be done without benefit of Neptune. I purposely avoided mention of Neptune in my original post on this chart for that very reason (that everyone looks at Neptune nowadays...the "signature" planet for alcohol and other drugs.)
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When using a modern planet with its 'signature' of an addictive pattern, informative suggestion could be arrived at in an easier manner.

I think it is more useful to understand the things that go into a condition, or a direction in life (such as career), and develop the capacity to synthesize the chart in that fashion rather than to look for "signatures" in a chart. In other words, if we understand what the different astrological symbols actually signify in terms of living life, rather than simply as astrological symbols, we can more effectively see the personality and thus the life.
In this chart we find a powerful accumulation of "contributing factors" that -- if we understand alcoholism -- "synthesize" into a diagnosis of alcoholism. The psychological elements are all in place here.
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Yet, as I have always been given to understand, traditional astrology does not work 'psychologically' as modern interpretation inclines. I STILL cannot see where psychologically analysing the 'contributing factors' of a Venus or Mars will point to alcohol issues.
When thinking in terms of l-o-v-e, you wouldn't look to Saturn rather than Venus, even if the latter is only an 'astrological symbol', would you?
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Frisiangal

Well-known member
Yanel said:
I wonder, are there positions or aspects in the chart that would have the complete opposite effect - making the person resistant to taking the first step in alcoholism or smoking? Yes, there can be so many different reasons for doing it but is there an aspect that would serve as a constant inner wall or a control mechanism that is so strong in someone that it turns into an unconscious force of resistance? Or just a planetary or house influence that could possibly serve in that way, not necessarily being a signature.
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Hi,
I'm still trying to work out the astrological factors that proved the chart offered WAS that of an alcoholic:unsure:.

Elsewhere someone recently made the comment that traditional astrology is rather 'unfriendly' because it says it as it is. Modern astrology is 'more friendly' because it offers options. I guess this could be said to be the difference between fate and free will.

I'm almost wary of saying it, yet from a modern perspective the same harsh aspects that would be suggestive of a difficulty are the same aspects that could suggest how to stop it from becoming one. When speaking of an inner wall or control mechanism towards resistance, Saturn of/or Capricorn emphasis immediately come to (my) mind. However, as already has
been implied, the state of the other planets cannot be overlooked as all should work together to induce a state of good health and well-being.
Imho, it's the harsh aspects that are indicative of the effort required to deal with difficult situations and overcome the odds.

I once mentioned to a client that (s)he could look upon circumstances seen as 'difficult' as 'confronting challenges.' It offered an alternate perspective. Several months later I got a call with the excited message, "It works, it works." :smile:
 
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kbell

kbell

Well-known member
Here are three charts of alcoholics. The 2nd one ignore the houses/ascendant as I don't know the birthtime.
 

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dr. farr

Well-known member
Oldtime astrology ("Traditional" astrology, including Hellenic, Islamic, Medieval, Renaissance/Reformation periods) really did not have an equivalent concept of "addiction", which we have developed over the past century/century and a half; of course they did recognize "wine-bibbers", for example, and those who ate to extreme excess, etc etc: but they classified all these under the term "gluttony" (whether food or wine), and they did have a primary significator for this "sin": it was Jupiter. Venus also played some role along these lines as well-a detrimented/afflicted Venus was often associated with "gluttony of pleasure" (what we might now call addiction to substances-and to food, and to sexual actions-based on pleasure, which we now understand as being related at least in part, to release of endorphins) So Jupiter, and somewhat Venus, were the oldtime significators for what we refer to now as "addictions".
I have always followed this signification of Jupiter for "excesses": of course now we have the important additional indications of the outer planets-particularly of Neptune-to give us even clearer insight into the causal factors of these types of health problems (I consider addiction to be a health problem)...
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Just expanding a bit on the Jupiter and Venus elements I briefly discussed in the previous post, lets take a quick look at the 4 charts of alcoholics posted by Kbell:

Chart 1: Jupiter elevated, detrimented in Gemini, afflicted by square from Mars; Venus elevated, detrimented in Aries, afflicted by close opposition from Moon

Chart 2: Jupiter elevated, strong by domicile in Pisces, but afflicted by partile opposition with Pluto; Venus strong by domicile but afflicted due to close square with Uranus

Chart 3: Venus strong by domicile in Libra but afflicted by opposition from Moon; Jupiter in a pitted degree; also, Sun is approaching an opposition to Jupiter (although since my maximum orb for opposition is 6 degrees, with the 7 degree difference found here I would not count an opposition between Jupiter and Sun as operative: however, others using wider orbs-especially for aspects involving the Sun-would)

Chart 4: Jupiter strong by domicile in Sagittarius but afflicted by square relationship with Uranus (also a quincunx involving Pluto); Venus afflicted by opposition relationship with Neptune
 
Yanel

Yanel

Well-known member
Frisiangal said:
Hi,
I'm still trying to work out the astrological factors that proved the chart offered WAS that of an alcoholic:unsure:.

Elsewhere someone recently made the comment that traditional astrology is rather 'unfriendly' because it says it as it is. Modern astrology is 'more friendly' because it offers options. I guess this could be said to be the difference between fate and free will.

I'm almost wary of saying it, yet from a modern perspective the same harsh aspects that would be suggestive of a difficulty are the same aspects that could suggest how to stop it from becoming one. When speaking of an inner wall or control mechanism towards resistance, Saturn of/or Capricorn emphasis immediately come to (my) mind. However, as already has
been implied, the state of the other planets cannot be overlooked as all should work together to induce a state of good health and well-being.
Imho, it's the harsh aspects that are indicative of the effort required to deal with difficult situations and overcome the odds.

I once mentioned to a client that (s)he could look upon circumstances seen as 'difficult' as 'confronting challenges.' It offered an alternate perspective. Several months later I got a call with the excited message, "It works, it works." :smile:
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Yes, Saturn and Capricorn are exactly the same things that come to my mind. But also Pluto. Pluto is power and control. Not power you can control in the way you can try to control other parts of your character, but still power connected with control that I imagine in the form of two polarities - either making you a passenger to the other side or giving you a staying power, a Scorpionic fixedness on this side. I could imagine a similar influence by Venus in an earth sign, although Taurus - an earth sign - is pretty much thought of as the sign of excess.

The harsh aspects really can turn tension into a transforming power. But still, a person can never really win over an addiction. The possibility of this tensed source inside him/her to again show its other side is just as high, isn't it? I think that it's very difficult to completely let go, especially if physical health is in the picture.
 
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mdinaz

mdinaz

Well-known member
I have Jupiter in Gemini on the ASC and square uranus/Pluto/Mars in the 5th; mars is close sextile to Neptune in the 6th. I am not remotely over weight (in good shape and active) but did have a battle with alcohol in my early 20s. It wasn't an addiction however, mostly drank out of boredom as I was in the military far from home in remote places. It was more of a crutch to deal with loneliness (not lack of friends but intimacy). Once back home I eventually gave it up on my own and now just have one beer here or there. In the old days I was able to drink anyone under the table and still retain all my faculties but never had a physical addiction to it. The negative Jupiter aspects are supposed to indicate one who can over-indulge and the Mars/Neptune sextile the opportunity to also over indulge in drugs/alcohol. Never a drug user.
 
miquar

miquar

Well-known member
Yanel said:
I wonder, are there positions or aspects in the chart that would have the complete opposite effect - making the person resistant to taking the first step in alcoholism or smoking? Yes, there can be so many different reasons for doing it but is there an aspect that would serve as a constant inner wall or a control mechanism that is so strong in someone that it turns into an unconscious force of resistance? Or just a planetary or house influence that could possibly serve in that way, not necessarily being a signature.
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Hi. I think that the best way to overcome any kind of dependency or destructive tendency is to attune to one's solar vitality. Obviously if one has Sun in Pisces or a Close Sun Neptune aspect, then this needs to be done with care, because attuning to the Sun is more likely to awaken escapist tendencies. A Sun Saturn aspect can bring a sense of defeat which can fuel alcoholism, although it can also bring solid boundaries and self-discipline. It is the Sun which, when functioning healthily, stands in the centre and orchestrates the other functions so that the ultimate purpose of one's life can be realised - it reigns in any excessive dependency of the Moon or Neptune, and excesses of Venus or Jupiter, any excessive demands on the self made by Saturn, and any excessive sense of being a victim caused by Chiron, Pluto or again Neptune, and so on. I think it is relevant here that in myth, the Sun god Apollo was the curse-breaker.
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Again, I think Neptune in a stressful aspect to a personal planet is often but not always involved.

kbell, of the 4 charts you posted:

1. Neptune-ruled sun in Pisces square Mars. Drinks to relieve inner pressure.

2. Neptune square Moon-Saturn, opposite sun-Mercury. Depressed feelings, self-medication.

3. Uranus square sun-Mars is the big news of this chart, but note Neptune conjunct Mercury. This person probably drinks to relieve the inner tension.

4. Neptune square Mars, opposite Venus. Saturn-moon-Mercury suggests depressed thinking>>> self-medication.
 
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Frisiangal

Well-known member
waybread said:
Again, I think Neptune in a stressful aspect to a personal planet is often but not always involved.

kbell, of the 4 charts you posted:

1. Neptune-ruled sun in Pisces square Mars. Drinks to relieve inner pressure.

2. Neptune square Moon-Saturn, opposite sun-Mercury. Depressed feelings, self-medication.

3. Uranus square sun-Mars is the big news of this chart, but note Neptune conjunct Mercury. This person probably drinks to relieve the inner tension.

4. Neptune square Mars, opposite Venus. Saturn-moon-Mercury suggests depressed thinking>>> self-medication.
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From post #2:
If you want to look up charts of alcoholics, I recommend the Astro-DataBank at Astrodienst. Many celebrities had this affliction; and the data bank also indicates ordinary citizens with this problem.
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Being as I am :)rolleyes:) I put Dr. Farr's post #34 to the test :smile:.
I checked 15 horoscopes on the 1st page of astrodatabank, in addition to those already provided on this thread.
Of the 15 people (known and unknown to me) only one chart showed no adverse aspect from Jupiter to a personal planet. I did not look further at any Saturn influence.

Jupiter's link as 'excess' is way beyond what would be considered above average in astrological research.

I also checked Neptune influences to a personal planet. Here I did expect to find many links because the charts are of celebrities and Neptune is largely associated as 'astrological symbol' in the 'icon' status through which they were known (artist,model,novelist, etc.).
Of the 15 charts, 3 showed no aspect between Neptune and a personal planet. I was not surprised about Buzz Aldrin, but I didn't expect Alice Cooper to be one of them:smile:.

Neptune's influence is also above what would be considered average.

This small exercise sheds new light for me. I am thankful for Dr. Farr's explanation of its traditional nature.
The question that arises for me now is whether alcoholism can be shown by THE ADDITION of Neptune's influence, or there is sufficient evidence without it?

Jupiter rules the liver; the physical complaint from which many alcoholics
eventually suffer. Is it the addictive status of Neptune that becomes a decisive factor that a causal drinker is not an alcoholic, and vice versa? Would there have to be an astrological link, as well as aspect, between the two?

I'll have to go back and re-check further (aah! for a retro.Mercury in Taurus :biggrin:) .
 
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