Discussion on 'Cookbooks'.

I really can't see the objection to cook books, it falls in to the hands of the astrologer to learn how to use all the books in his/her possession. Perhaps it shows a lack of imagination of the owner, and lack of astrology skills rather than the books he/she so heavily relies upon (comment not aimed to anyone on this thread -you are all competent astrologers, it was aimed at those who really are irresponsible with knowledge, just clarifying this point). If an astrologer just repeats the information from a cook book to another individual without consideration of the whole chart, isn't this the responsibility of the Astrologer? If people use information out of context, after reading a cook book, then they haven't looked in depth at astrology. To move on from my "baby analogy" look at how hypochondriacs read "one" medical symptom in a book and believe they have the illness. We have seen numerous times on this forum questions such as "I am destined to be alone because I have Saturn in th 7th house of my chart?" or "I am doomed to a life of no children with Saturn in 5th?". These people have took one piece of information found in a astrological cook book, and gone into panic stations.

I used to think Astrology Forums where for everyone, but it would be less hassle if only true astrology students/professionals were on this board. We could say a statement about astrology, and know that it won't be taken out of context. There are hypochondriacs in astrology, one aspect equals doom and gloom. You have to watch for these people as well, as they are extremely draining when you have to comfort and reassure them all the time.

I see cookbook interpretations as the astrologer's eqivalent of the artist's paint-tubes........needing to be skilfully blended on the pallet of knowledge and experience to achieve exactly the right colour/meaning before being applied to the canvas/individual.

Very good analogy EJ , the cook books are simply the colours provided for the Astrologer to paint character and personality with life into the symbols. We have texture (Planet), design (sign) and background (houses). I never took art in school, I probably have it all wrong .

Shining Ray said:

....We have texture (Planet), design (sign) and background (houses)....

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Yes Shiny..........So, even with a "straightforward" interpretation of (say) natal Sun square natal Mars, we have to blend cookbook interpretations of two planets in sign; two planets in house and a square between the two planets.....5 "standard" interpretations which the astrologer has to convert into one.

And a "straightforward" T-square involves three planets in signs; three planets in houses;three aspects and the configuration...........10 "standard" interpretations that must become one!

Guess it's like learning to drive a car........the many elements involved require intense concentration and effort, but eventually become habitual through practice and experience..........And then, we start "reading the road ahead" without being prompted by an instructor/cookbook.

EJ53 said:

Yes Shiny..........So, even with a "straightforward" interpretation of (say) natal Sun square natal Mars, we have to blend cookbook interpretations of two planets in sign; two planets in house and a square between the two planets.....5 "standard" interpretations which the astrologer has to convert into one.

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I wouldn't like to calculate all the possible number of astrological variations, I can just about get past 5. We don't get paid enough for all this work, and then we get asked for freebies all the time. I think symbols themselves can be tapped into endlessly, and it depends what you are focusing on at the time. Transits on top... PULLS hair out.

And a "straightforward" T-square involves three planets in signs; three planets in houses;three aspects and the configuration...........10 "standard" interpretations that must become one!

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Mind boggling, you need perseverance, or you get lost in the astro-lingo.

Guess it's like learning to drive a car........the many elements involved require intense concentration and effort, but eventually become habitual through practice and experience..........And then, we start "reading the road ahead" without being prompted by an instructor/cookbook.

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Ha ha yes that's right, I did a blog post a couple of weeks about creature habits, about the Moon and how without it we would have to keep relearning everything. Once we have learned to drive a car, it comes naturally and we do it less consciously, automatic programming (it's why we get stuck into bad habits too). Yes astrology is the same - lucky my Moon is conjunct Mercury trine Uranus, I should remember more astrology. However, I am Piscean - where are my cars keys .

Shiny said:

.....We don't get paid enough for all this work, and then we get asked for freebies all the time......

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As you know Shiny, this has been hotly debated on another thread.

However, astrologers selling reports consisting of nothing more than "cookbook interpretation" paragraphs really irritates me...........I once did a free report for a friend, extracting/blending and focusing upon only the meaningful areas......which he discarded in favour of a computerised report of duplicated standard paragraphs that he purchased from an Internet site.......because he could confirm what they said by consulting his KISS (Keep It Simple Series) Guide to Astrology.........And, I had recommended the Guide myself

a computerised report of duplicated standard paragraphs

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Yes EJ, I always warn people for these 30 page or more reports and if they got them anyhow, then I ask them to count how often they find the same sentence used That usually convinces them.

Re: cookbooks and so on

aquarius7000 said:

Well, I did not had not "quoted your name" as this is often the case many a time when people use quotes from posts on threads. Many member quote texts (using the quote icon), but do not type in the names--for eg you yourself have done so four times in your post above.

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Actually, I meant to use a name only three times, and that because I was also quoting myself, to make the chronology clear.

I had to show that I was quoting you, then myself, then returning to you. The fourth use of your name was an oversight.

Normally the name is right at the beginning of any reply when we pick "quote". For instance, "QUOTE=aquarius7000" is provided by the site. It's a simple matter not to delete the name. In this case, I think, it is clear that I am replying to you because of the opening quote. After the first quote, I also just use the "quote" command without a name. Last night I copied a name one extra time. My only point was that it is useful to know whose ideas are being referred to.

However, if and when I respond to the ideas of several people, in one post, then yes, I will use all the names. Otherwise it is very easy to create confusion as to who said what. Sometimes it hardly matters. Sometimes it does.

As regards all the quotes, you have used from my post, if you had read carefully, I began my post by saying in my first sentence: "..there are a couple of *general* points I'd like to make."

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I did read your post carefully. The fact that I did not deduce the exact intent you had in mind does not indicate carelessness on my part. Several of your general points not only did not seem to relate to anything I said but were points I did not fully agree with. I think it works better to quote, reply to the quote, then start a new paragraph with: "To all:", when the remainder of a post is no longer speaking to a particular person.

My sensitivity in this topic stems from the fact that it would be very easy for other people to incorrectly assume that I am making a blanket condemnation of any book that attempts to explain the basics of astrology. I want to make it clear that I am not.

I also want to make it clear that my one, consistent criticism of basic astrology, in books, has been the *use* of the information contained in such books by people who are still learning and who are relatively new to astrology when they attempt to give *advice* to other people. We saw the example of Mars square Pluto. You have mentioned having this aspect. I also have it. By reading the descriptions of this aspect, online or in books, I see very little that is helpful. VERY little. Yet someone learning astrology, in an attempt to "read my chart", is quite likely to quote such ideas.

I continue to believe that is potentially destructive.

g

Discussion of cookbooks

gaer said:

Normally the name is right at the beginning of any reply when we pick "quote". For instance, "QUOTE=aquarius7000" is provided by the site. It's a simple matter not to delete the name. In this case, I think, it is clear that I am replying to you because of the opening quote.

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Actually the name is *never* there, if you use the quote icon, namely:

after you have done a copy-paste of just that text of another poster that you intend quoting.

So then you can either especially type in the name of the poster (as I have done especially with the quote above), or simply let the text be in the quotes without the name. Many members use this method; I am just another one of them (and never had any complaints).


Btw, EJ & Shining Ray, your points make a lot of sense.

AQ7

Re: Discussion of cookbooks

Cookbooks are only as insightful as their authors. My two favourite cookbooks are Robert Hand's classics, Planets in Youth, and Planets in Transit. Interestingly, he gives brief summaries of planets in signs and houses; but really focuses upon aspects: conjunctions, sextiles, trines, quincunxes, and oppositions. I was lucky to have begun my astrology self-teaching with these books [in the pre-Internet era] because I do see aspects as just key to chart interpretation.

Why? Because without a correct birth time, houses are meaningless. I think one has to learn to interpret a chart without them, if need be. I practice tropical western astrology, but the siderealists make me feel uneasy that signs are really solid. But aspects are generally there, regardless (allowing for the moon's daily movements in a house-less chart.)

Some astrologers just seem to know more, be better educated, and operate on a higher plane than others. Still, it takes all kinds to make a world, and a reader of limited education who thinks in very material, mundane ways, probably doesn't want a professorial tone in a cookbook.

My pet peeves are cookbook authors who conflate signs and houses (as in "Mercury in the 5th house or Leo" as though they were identical,) and authors who conflate "easy" and "challenging" degrees. I don't think a sextile operates just like a trine; nor a square like an opposition.

Re: Discussion of cookbooks

aquarius7000 said:

Actually the name is *never* there, if you use the quote icon, namely:

after you have done a copy-paste of just that text of another poster that you intend quoting.

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I use the "reply with quote" icon. That always brings up, immediately, something like this: [ QUOTE=aquarius7000;153170 ]

I don't want to say more than a line here, because it will throw the discussion off topic. Perhaps at some other time we can open a discussion about quoting options, since other people apparently do not know how to use them all. But those numbers are incredibly useful, since they immediately link to the post the quotes are from and allow members to see all the text that a small snip comes from.

waybread said:

Cookbooks are only as insightful as their authors. My two favourite cookbooks are Robert Hand's classics, Planets in Youth, and Planets in Transit. Interestingly, he gives brief summaries of planets in signs and houses; but really focuses upon aspects: conjunctions, sextiles, trines, quincunxes, and oppositions. I was lucky to have begun my astrology self-teaching with these books [in the pre-Internet era] because I do see aspects as just key to chart interpretation.

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I have both those books. Quite obviously these books are to be used as a starting point. Hand is usually very careful not to make judgmental or blanket statements. At one time his comments seemed somewhat bland to me, but as I learned more, I became convinced that he wrote as he did to avoid over-eager learners who might take his ideas too literally, or in too narrow a way.

Why? Because without a correct birth time, houses are meaningless. I think one has to learn to interpret a chart without them, if need be. I practice tropical western astrology, but the siderealists make me feel uneasy that signs are really solid. But aspects are generally there, regardless (allowing for the moon's daily movements in a house-less chart.)

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It does bother me when astrologers, even experienced ones, insist that they "know" when someone was born, based on rectifying charts. As other people have pointed out, when the most famous astrologers pick birth times for famous people, using any method, when a verifyable birthtime comes to light, it is often totally different from what was formerly picked or guessed, again using any method. No matter how enlightned an astrologer is, there is always a temptation to make the data seem to fit facts.

Some astrologers just seem to know more, be better educated, and operate on a higher plane than others. Still, it takes all kinds to make a world, and a reader of limited education who thinks in very material, mundane ways, probably doesn't want a professorial tone in a cookbook.

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I've tried to make it clear that I did not begin with anything unusually complicated. I do think that beginners need to start from the beginning, and I think by definition that has to be using something that is simplistic.

My pet peeves are cookbook authors who conflate signs and houses (as in "Mercury in the 5th house or Leo" as though they were identical,) and authors who conflate "easy" and "challenging" degrees. I don't think a sextile operates just like a trine; nor a square like an opposition.

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I think in the end we get at least a working idea of the principles involved by starting with a basic idea and then refining it. Using another aspect I'm familiar with, Venus/Saturn conjunct, I believe we get close by understand the nature of the two planets and then considering, carefully, how those planets do or do not cooperate, depending on how they aspect each other. Then, how far can we get in an individual birthchart not knowing what houses they fall in? Then considering, *if* we have A data, how houses modify that energy. But then we have to consider everything else in relationship to those two planets in order to have a chance to refine it.

I think that's where talent, for want of a better word, comes in. The refining is an infinite process.

g

Re: Discussion of cookbooks

Gaer said:

I use the "reply with quote" icon. That always brings up, immediately, something like this: [ QUOTE=aquarius7000;153170 ]......those numbers are incredibly useful, since they immediately link to the post the quotes are from and allow members to see all the text that a small snip comes from.

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Thanks for the info, Gaer......I've been deleting the numbers without thinking, but that kind of linking is indeed useful.

waybread said:

....I do see aspects as just key to chart interpretation.......Why? Because without a correct birth time, houses are meaningless......(and)....siderealists make me feel uneasy that signs are really solid. But aspects are generally there, regardless (allowing for the moon's daily movements in a house-less chart.)

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I also believe aspects are key to chart interpretation......and would advise newbies to focus their learning initially upon the meanings of each planet and the major aspects, for which cookbooks are an excellent source of information......It also makes sense for experienced astrologers to focus on aspect interpretation for the reasons you state above, Waybread.

However, I've used this approach of ignoring signs/houses myself and......whilst it does produce a solid/reliable interpretation......I found "the devil is in the detail" provided by the signs and houses.

For example, Pluto in Leo/5th square Sun in Scorpio/8th does not signify the same behaviour as Sun in Leo/5th square Pluto in Scorpio/8th and neither would result in the behaviour of a Sun in Aquarius/11th square Pluto in Taurus/2nd........But all are the Sun square Pluto aspect.

The "aspect only" interpretation approach is akin to producing a sculpture of a human with clearly defined muscles and body parts but without the facial details that give it personality..........A significant landmark for the trainee sculptor/astrologer, but perhaps not for those aiming to master the art.

......a reader of limited education who thinks in very material, mundane ways, probably doesn't want a professorial tone in a cookbook

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Nor me........I want it accurately written in simple, every day language that is easily understood and contains the minimum of jargon (with explanations).

My pet peeves are......

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I share these with you......but see "aspect only" interpretation in the same way.

EJ

Re: Discussion of cookbooks

EJ53 said:

Thanks for the info, Gaer......I've been deleting the numbers without thinking, but that kind of linking is indeed useful.

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Right. As you can see, there is a little arrow by your name.

By the way, I share some other member's confusion or lack of trust in house systems. It has always bothered me that astrologer A uses one and astrologer B uses another. As is the case with so many other things in astrology, in the end it always seems to come down to opinion and preference.

The elegance and simplicity of whole sign appeals to me, but I can't get comfortable with the idea that people born at different latitudes and at different times have planets placed in the same positions. Only the Moon would change a hair.

As for tropical vs sidereal, I think I would have to turn my back on astrology altogether if I could not accept that in some "magical" way the "signs" are as they are in traditional astrology. I gave up trying to examine astrology logically decades ago. There are too many questions, too many unanswered questions.

EJ53 said:

As you know Shiny, this has been hotly debated on another thread.

However, astrologers selling reports consisting of nothing more than "cookbook interpretation" paragraphs really irritates me...........I once did a free report for a friend, extracting/blending and focusing upon only the meaningful areas......which he discarded in favour of a computerised report of duplicated standard paragraphs that he purchased from an Internet site.......because he could confirm what they said by consulting his KISS (Keep It Simple Series) Guide to Astrology.........And, I had recommended the Guide myself

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I did have a longer response in my previous post, and I lost it. Basically he may prefer a simple reading even if it lacks the depth of your analysis. A spirtual astrologer is often ill suited to read charts where the client only wants to know about mundane issues. Don't take it personally. Your penetrating astrological insights are valued by this community, and you offer what no cook-books can deliver .

Re: Discussion of cookbooks

gaer said:

....It has always bothered me that astrologer A uses one (house system) and astrologer B uses another.......

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I suspect that each system might produce the same "final interpretation" - but with different significators......For example, Equal House does not have the intercepted signs and duplicated houses of Placidus, but the meaning of these may be revealed in another way.

Shiny said:

Don't take it personally.

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No way, Shiny.........I still talk to him.......but never about astrology.....He thinks I gave it up after getting his chart wrong.

Star said:

....I ask them to count how often they find the same sentence used.....

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In this case Star, it was a question of how often the same paragraph was used!

Re: Discussion of cookbooks

EJ, very nice one about the car example!! It is indeed exactly like that with astrology.

Re: Discussion of cookbooks

EJ53 said:

I suspect that each system might produce the same "final interpretation" - but with different significators......For example, Equal House does not have the intercepted signs and duplicated houses of Placidus, but the meaning of these may be revealed in another way.

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I know. This is the "all roads lead to Rome" idea. I often marvel at the fact that several different people, using methods or systems that appear very different, often arrive at almost exactly the same conclusion. I continue to believe that astrology deals with something very different from the world of science. It is my hope that eventually there will be discoveries that truly unite the two, but I think at best we are a LONG way away from seeing that happen.

I was struck last night by the timing of writing I was doing, shortly before midnight. I had a strong need to mend fences and reach out, break out of a mood I've been that has tempted me to isolate. I was in the process of actually trying to cheer up a member in another forum with whom I had had some minor "bumps". It seemed time to put aside minor things and look at the bigger picture, namely that so many people are scared and hurting now because of the economy in this US.

Then I glanced at "the skies" and saw that the three planet conjunction in Aquarius was trined by Venus and the Moon. I wonder how many other people felt that this time period was a harmonious one for offering an olive branch?

Re: Discussion of cookbooks

gaer said:

......I continue to believe that astrology deals with something very different from the world of science.

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I believe astrology is an aid/guide to Soul development and (perhaps) subject to scientific laws that have yet to be discovered........For example, I wouldn't be surprised to find that tropical and sidereal astrology are linked by time....with tropical astrology depicting Soul development issues for one lifetime on Earth and sidereal astrology revealing that Soul's development issues over the course of the Great Year.

.....last night....I had a strong need to mend fences and reach out, break out of a mood I've been that has tempted me to isolate.....to put aside minor things and look at the bigger picture.....Then I....saw that the three planet conjunction in Aquarius was trined by Venus and the Moon. I wonder how many other people felt that this time period was a harmonious one for offering an olive branch?

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Guess we are off-topic here, but glad you've raised it because I'm really feeling this quite strongly........I'm putting it down primarily to Chiron in Aquarius, which seems to be resurrecting issues from the past to provide us all with another opportunity to learn their related lessons.....and so become more "mature" in the way we contribute to our local communities (such as this forum, for example).

In my case, I'm consistently finding myself being upset by people behaving towards me in ways that I did with others when I was around 30 years old....It's as through I'm being forced to feel/experience now what I failed to see then.....To understand just how much my bad/immature behaviour was tolerated by the mature people around me....Now it's my turn to be "tolerant of those whose behaviour I find intolerable"......In effect, tolerance is my mature contribution to the local community.......Which is maybe a good thing to have realised, with the increasingly difficult behaviour of so many people who are "scared and hurting now" because of the economy.

Time for us all to pull together.....here on the forum and in all the local communities of which we are a part......Each of us is suffering enough through global problems, without also having to fight our friends.

On my soapbox

Re: Discussion of cookbooks

EJ53 said:

I believe astrology is an aid/guide to Soul development and (perhaps) subject to scientific laws that have yet to be discovered........For example, I wouldn't be surprised to find that tropical and sidereal astrology are linked by time....with tropical astrology depicting Soul development issues for one lifetime on Earth and sidereal astrology revealing that Soul's development issues over the course of the Great Year.

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Right now the Great Year is too much for me to think about.

Guess we are off-topic here, but glad you've raised it because I'm really feeling this quite strongly........I'm putting it down primarily to Chiron in Aquarius, which seems to be resurrecting issues from the past to provide us all with another opportunity to learn their related lessons.....and so become more "mature" in the way we contribute to our local communities (such as this forum, for example).

In my case, I'm consistently finding myself being upset by people behaving towards me in ways that I did with others when I was around 30 years old....It's as through I'm being forced to feel/experience now what I failed to see then.....To understand just how much my bad/immature behaviour was tolerated by the mature people around me....Now it's my turn to be "tolerant of those whose behaviour I find intolerable"......In effect, tolerance is my mature contribution to the local community.......Which is maybe a good thing to have realised, with the increasingly difficult behaviour of so many people who are "scared and hurting now" because of the economy.

Time for us all to pull together.....here on the forum and in all the local communities of which we are a part......Each of us is suffering enough through global problems, without also having to fight our friends.

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I won't say much, because we would really be getting more and more off topic, but if you could find a way to link greater tolerance to cookbooks, EJ, I'd be glad to join you. I DO think that as much as ever before this is a time to pull together, just as you said.

g

Re: Discussion of cookbooks

gaer said:

....If you could find a way to link greater tolerance to cookbooks.......

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"The use of cookbooks by fledgling astrologers is one area where greater tolerance might be shown by those with enough experience to understand the limitations of blindly following a recipe. And, speaking of greater tolerance............"

Good to speak with you again, Gaer.

EJ