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  #1  
Unread 04-06-2007, 01:20 AM
Mikey279x Mikey279x is offline
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grand trines

for some reaosn I havent heard anything extrodinarly good about them, you hear that usually people who have them are lazy and don't live up to their potenial or the grand trine provides extreame ease and most people tend to drift their way through life without doing anything productive.

Most places I've checked show the same information portraying the grand trine as nothing more then somewhat of a lazy aspect I've never heard a lot of what positve things the grand trine does for people

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  #2  
Unread 04-06-2007, 02:11 AM
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Re: grand trines

Yes it is true the grand trines can be overly stable, but if there is mars, saturn, or maybe pluto there will be a drive to use the energy. Here is a great site for many aspect patterns, it describes it's potential and weakness: http://www.cafeastrology.com/article...tpatterns.html
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Unread 04-06-2007, 03:32 AM
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Re: grand trines

Trines do not make laziness. A person can be just as lazy with square aspects and opposition aspects. In fact they can be even MORE lazy with the malevolent aspects because things commonly dont work out and therefore the "why should I even bother when nothing works out in my favor?" or "Why should I bother doing this when its going to take so long its not worth it".

Trines are helping hands. When someone has 3 trine aspects (a grand trine), this indicates that the significators (of the Planets involved) are in agreement with eachother. When they are in agreement with eachother things work smoothly with little friction. This means these people can put their efforts into something and get it done and move onto the next and therefore achieve quite a significant amount of things. Whereas someone with a square has to struggle, struggle, and struggle more to achieve just ONE of their desires when the trine has achieved 10 times as much in the same amount of time.
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  #4  
Unread 04-06-2007, 05:33 AM
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easy and challenging, to Mikey

Mikey,

A person can choose to behave how they want to behave.

However, a person with a Grand Trine has a "safety net", a place to go when life becomes too "tough" for them. Some people spend all their time in this easy safety net of energy while others get out of their safety net and take some chances with using their NON-Grand Trine energy. The challenge for Grand Trine people is they get so they EXPECT life to be easy...so when tough times come, they are unready for them.

On the other hand, a person without a Grand Trine and with challenging aspects in their chart such as squares and oppositions, has nowhere to hide. Sitting around and doing nothing is NOT an option, because life will force its difficult side on them all the time. And so they have a STRONG motivation to build and develop their "toughness" and learn how to use their energy. True, some people just spend their entire life frustrated and worried about how the world is "unfair" to them. But for those who learn how to USE their challenging energy, they can grow GREATLY.

Remember that in order to develop a muscle, there needs to be a RESISTANCE: no resistance, and all we get is flab. Similarly, in order to develop in our life, we need CHALLENGES. And people with squares and oppositions in their chart have those life challenges ready made!

On the square,

Tim
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Unread 04-06-2007, 05:44 AM
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Re: grand trines

When things (possessions, jobs, relationships etc) come EASILY to the native with blessed trines I have noticed that the native does NOT have to strive...hence i can see why such a native could be seen as <lazy>. Afterall, why BOTHER when the new opportunity will just land at the native's feet. too often we can misunderstand..A person with many squares, inconjuncts, oppositions etc may strive and achieve little- their lack of <success> makes it appear that they have <failed.> Yet the native who has winged it to the top, so to speak, APPEARS to be successful!.The charts of the great <achievers> seem marked by a healthy BALANCE of both easy AND difficult aspects. I have a friend with two grand trines who is always <rescued> but she never breaks out of the circle of her addictions as someone always <saves> her and she gets to avoid the consequences of her actions as a result of her trines... lillyjgc
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Unread 04-06-2007, 10:58 AM
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Re: grand trines

When I have looked around the net for information on Grand Trines, I don't know how many times I have been shown Kurt Cobain's chart. I think he is the only example of a grand trine they have . I get the point which they are trying to get across about the Grand Water Trine he has - that they are not as wonderful as you may think, and his Grand Water Trine wasn't beneficial for him because he was too emotionally self-contained, although he had lots of creative, musical talent he couldn't seem to handle all those emotions.

My baby Son has a grand trine in Earth, and from what I remember another grand trine in Air this grand trine involves his M.C. I am never sure whether this is a blessing for him or whether he will take life for granted and expect things handed on a plate. Here is a quote from my Astrology book about what the Astrologer found in the lives of her clients who have grand trines:

Quote:
When I began studying Astrology, I learned that a Grand Trine is a wonderful gift. It can indicate real talent and very special abilities. When I started out in private practice, I found that people with Grand Water Trines had artistic ability, but sometimes did nothing with it. I was shocked when I encountered people with Grand Earth Trines who were on welfare. They did not feel they had to work. I also see it with women who marry successful men who take care of them. I had a client who had a Grand Air Trine who got into terrible trouble . All his life he could talk his way out of anything. He thought he could do it one more time, but he ended up in jail.

Of all the Grand Trines, I do find the Grand Fire Trine is the most beneficial, because it endows these people with courage. These people are risk takers and have a lot of fun. But they won't reach their greatest potential without reinforcing squares. They have an abundance of energy and keep themselves very busy. They're warm and charming, and people respond to them positively, but they are also used to having everything fall into their laps. They take for granted what other people have to work hard for. They just assume life is easy for everybody. They don't understand why other's may hesitate or analyze before stepping forward, because they are used to taking risks and coming out on top. They simply won't achieve their greatest potential without reinforcing squares. Often they don't recognize their limits, so they burn out.

Grand Earth Trine people have gone bankrupt, money comes so easily to them they become careless or don't take the proper precautions to protect their finances. I had clients who were investment brokers who thought they were going to profit forever and didn't. People with Grand Water Trines have an emotional self-containment, and many times their creativity tends to be more internal rather than something put into tangible form and shared with the world. They have enormous creativity, but use it only for their own enjoyment. They can be emotionally fulfilled within themselves and may end up being loners. They are often content living alone because they are self-contained and emotionally self-sufficient.

The Grand Air Trine denotes an able communicator who can process information easily and comfortably, but I've also seen many people with this aspect who attend school forever and never do anything in the real world. They get hooked on the learning process. They can reach age fifty without ever really working a job. I have a client with a P.H.D who did postdoctoral work, but has never worked. He enjoys learning more than utilizing the information. He lives frugally on a small inheritance. People with Grand Air Trines have great intellectual ability, sometimes lack common sense, and often neglect their physical well being. They know a lot about many different things. They study and read voraciously, but they are not doers. They don't know how to get out of their minds and manifest their work in the material world.

Those with a Grand Fire Trine can be too rash and take too many chances, like a fireman who rushes back into a burning building at great personal risk. They feel they have nine lives. They can be too impulsive, but sometimes can survive things that other people cannot. I had a client who lived through a German concentration camp, and then went back to Hungary. His Grand Fire Trine and the help of a good astrologer later got him to safety when he needed to escape from the communists. He also had good reinforcing squares. He then came to the United States and started a business that became very successful. People with Grand Trines are very lucky, but they also need a driver, such as a T.Square, to push them along to greatness.

Last edited by Shining Ray; 04-06-2007 at 11:01 AM.
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Unread 04-06-2007, 11:58 AM
Yoi Yoi is offline
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Re: grand trines

Sure there are probably a lot of people who turn out badly who have lots of trines, but you know I'm sure that's also true of people who have a lot of squares. If you want to prove that trines make people lazy or go bad or whatever you have to show that you are far more likely to not succeed if you are trine heavy then if you are square or opposition heavy and I don't see any proof of that.

My granddad had trines and sextiles aplenty. In fact he had a double grand kite (the grand trine part was in earth). He had only a few squares and opposition. He was smart, financially successful (he was a good businessman), very hard working (he worked hard practically every day, getting up at the crack of dawn, until he went to hospital and died) and the loveliest kindest man in the world who everyone trusted and respected. In fact during the bad times in my country of birth people literally risked their lives to help him. But the thing is they knew he would do the same for them. His only bad point may be he was a bit too much of a soft touch (Moon Opposition Neptune formed the backbone of his grand kites) but in the end that actually helped him as the people he helped ended up saving him.

I have plenty of both trines and squares and oppositions. I have an earth grand trine and sort-of air grand trine (one point is the MC). But I also have a very bad T-square and I have to say that in my opinion, the T-square is what causes a lot of the misery in my life.

Last edited by Yoi; 04-06-2007 at 12:28 PM.
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  #8  
Unread 04-06-2007, 12:59 PM
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Re: grand trines

Grand Trines & Kites are alot better to dissect for potential then Mystic Triangles I have seen. An easier flow of energy.

Kite's and the rest of the formations can always be used negatively.

I have looked at Kurt Cobain's chart before. He took the easy way out of addiction .Had a rough childhood and marriage.

The Virgo\Gemini combo for the creative outlet has to be hell for those like him to live with. So much mental energy that needs to be released,but in a positive respect. Seems like the planets in the 7th just made him reclusive
and he did not know how to handle it all when the drugs ran out or the effect no lnger worked to take the pain away.

What is in the 8th is how he was remembered ,NN & PoF.

I think personally that he and others just do not know or realize how lucky they are and hit a roadblock as the money does not work,drugs don't and they have nothng to make them see things through another set of lenses.
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Unread 04-06-2007, 03:53 PM
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Re: grand trines

I have a grand water trine with saturn moon and neptune, and yes I have artistic ability obvious since childhood. But it did not bring confidence with the ability, though it is a kite through Pluto/Uranus in virgo, which does give me a drive to do something with it, but this has come later in life and the confidence is still not strong. My mum has the grand water trine too, artistic ability but it has always been an avocation for her. My grandmother has the grand water trine and she was the same as my mum. My Dad has the Grand air trine and has a PhD had a career but retired early at 50 to go sailing.

It is an aspect that is interesting for me as I have it. I can be emotionally self contained and happy in my own space but I still yearn for relationship. Strangely it is difficult for me to comfortably express my emotions though I have a big range, I have a habit of hiding them or surpressing them. It is kind of like a roller coaster of emotional change for me and my mum and probably my gran too. But well the moon is involved! Emotionally I have been knocked around a bit and had gone through a period of depression but then who hasn't at some point in their lives by my age.

I think grand fire trines are linked to spiritual masters.... gandhi I think, da Vinci may well have had the air trine. Catherine Zeta Jones has the earth trine. There are many famous with it but you have to go searching looking at individual charts. I did this ages ago but would have to look up my files.

Talent or ability is a tricky thing, when it is nutured and encouraged by the childhood environment I think it can be a powerful thing. Picasso grew up with his mother and several aunts doting on him and his talents which he developed so strong had huge confidence and was one of the most prodigious artists, thousands of paintings/drawings.

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Flea
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  #10  
Unread 04-06-2007, 11:38 PM
Neptune Rising Neptune Rising is offline
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Re: grand trines

My flatmate has a grand trine in fire, Sun in Aries, Mars in Sagitarius, Moon in Leo. He is excellent at his job which requires a lot of energy. He can handle so much with so much ease, he doesn't think twice about it. They have promoted him a few times in the year and half I've known him. It amazes me the amount of work he does without any stress.

A male friend I have has a grand trine in water, Neptune in Scorpio, Chiron in Pisces and Mercury in Cancer. He says he always seems to make the girls cry, me included . He seems to have healing abilities, being with him somehow brings out the dark hidden away part of the psyche that needs to be healed through facing it.

Another friend has grand trine in air, Sun, Saturn and Moon. He is an absolutely gifted writer. He just loves to write, has written books and works as a journalist/editor. He has a gifted intellectual mind and a real talent for communication.

I don't know anyone with earth grand trines, yet!!

Neptune
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  #11  
Unread 04-09-2007, 01:18 PM
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Re: grand trines

Grand trines or any trines offer the easy way out. They are not good or bad. They offer enjoyment & lines of ease normally
In some instances they are used to take the easy way out.
Its not uncommon to see trines or grand trines with neptune and or jupiter involved in the charts of drug addicts for instance.
Conversely of course all who have grand trines and trines involving neptune & or jupiter are not druggies of course
The misuse of this line of ease for some is thus demonstaed to be where people just want to take the easy way out or put indulges & enjoyment ahead of responsibility

Squares in particular do push people. People with a lot of squares feel a lot of tension. It does not mean they always achieve much tho. They can spend their life fighting day to day battles & not make progress. But they are being PUSHED to make changes & act & bring together / marry two different energies.
Some writers suggest that people with a lot of squares are more likely to be achievers
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Unread 04-09-2007, 01:40 PM
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Re: grand trines

A water grand trine right here .Sun(26ºPisces)trine Pluto(20ºScorpio)trine the Chiron-South Node conjunction(Chiron is21ºCancer,South Node is26ºCancer).The grand trine involves the air houses,with the Sun in the3rd,Chiron/South Node in the7th and Pluto in the end of the10th.

Like some people have stated,grand trines are not always easy or even positive.My grad trine,in particular,has been responsible for holding me back in life(I blame it on the South Node involvement).I often find myself being overly emotional,getting overwhelmed by my own feelings.With an abundance of Fire in my chart,my moods change quickly and my feelings are easily aroused;my mind just needs to go back to a certain moment in time for my heart to start an entire emotional reaction to the situation.Emotional detachment is simply a unknown concept to me.This is particularly true in the relationship area(the South Node in the7th)-I have a strong tendency to idealise the person I like and I simply hand my heart on a plate to the boy I like with thinking too much-sometimes,without thinking at all!I once read that people with Water grand trines tend to wear their heart right on their sleeve,and it's so true-I try very hard to hide certain feelings but people always know it when there's something wrong with me,altough they may not know what's causing me to be sad.With the grand trine focused on air houses,writing is the best way for me to express my emotions.

Grand trines require that we do some type of creative work with them,or we may end up overwhelmed by it's energies(like me ).Usually,the houses involved give us some clues on what to do with those energies.
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Last edited by Lissa; 04-09-2007 at 01:43 PM.
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Unread 04-09-2007, 02:04 PM
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Re: grand trines

I just wanna add that a lot of easy aspects aren't always representative of a easy life.There's a girl in my class who has the "nicest" chart I've ever seen-I'm telling you,she only has one square(counting Chiron out)and two oppositions.Only ONE square!A few conjunctions,lots of trines,but mostly sextiles.

Would you believe that this girl I'm talking about has one of the most troubled lifes I've ever seen?Lots of problems with her dad and her dad's family,not to mention her health problems too.She's been in my class for4years now.When I first met her,in the7th grade,she was incredibly manipulative and almost a compulsive liar.She wanted everything her way and,whenever we denied her something,she did everything in her way to ensure things went the way she wanted.I changed home during the7th year,and when I ended up in her class,I didn't know anyone there.She was the first person to approach me,and I thought she was so nice,I simply didn't understand why the rest of the class didn't like her...Until she started being very pushy and demanding-she wanted me to be like her best friend,I simply couldn't do anything without her consentment!Not to mention she used to tell lies about about everyone in the class.Just in the7th grade,she got the entire class against her.

I have to say she changed a lot now,but it's still very hard to get along with her.She still lies and doesn't recognize the mistakes she did.Lots of people have been in our class since the7th grade(I'm in the10th grade now)and no one sees her as a friend-we see her as a classmate.We try not to get into trouble with her,but we avoid getting too close to her or she starts demanding too much.She's not really that bad-she has some very good qualities too:very organised,hardworking,focuses a lot on her school path.But she really is a loner...
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Last edited by Lissa; 04-09-2007 at 03:32 PM.
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Unread 05-04-2007, 06:44 PM
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Re: grand trines

I know someone at work with a grand trine in earth. Sun/Saturn in late Taurus, Pluto in late Virgo, Mars/Moon late degrees Capricorn. She is incredibly practicle. If anything in the office goes wrong, she can fix it. She comes across as very grounded. When I hear about the multitude of things that happen in her life, I am amazed at the practice way she approaches them. She doesn't like to go far from home also, in travelling terms. So very grounded indeed.

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Unread 06-03-2007, 01:19 PM
Stacey5271 Stacey5271 is offline
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Re: grand trines

For those having a hard time finding incidents of grand trines besides Curt Cobain, a book I have been reading cites some others:

Fire Grand Trine - Marlon Brando (4/23/24 11 PM CST Omaha, NE)
Earth Grand Trine - Muhammad Ali (1/17/42 6:35 PM CST Louisville, KY)
Air Grand Trine - Lance Armstrong (9/18/71 Plano, TX - time not available)
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Unread 06-04-2007, 11:56 AM
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Re: grand trines

water trine - Marilyn Monroe, jimmy carter, scorsese, hugh hefner, michael j fox, warren beatty,
earth trine - catherine zeta jones, britny spears, sylvia plath, andy kaufman, bono, matt damon, Dick Cheney,
fire trine - pete rose (baseball), Shaquille O'Neal, madonna, ghandi, liberace, maria callas, louis armstrong,
air trine - ricky martin, diane keaton,
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Unread 06-06-2007, 11:23 AM
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Re: grand trines

best trine is jupiter-venus
this makes a person creative, loyal, honest
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Unread 06-06-2007, 01:51 PM
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Re: grand trines

Personally, I like Jupiter trine (or even sextile) neptune...compassion...lillyjgc
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Unread 07-12-2007, 01:06 AM
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Re: grand trines

I have an air grand trine (Libra Uranus in 1st/near 2nd house cusp, Aqua Mars in 6th/near 5th house cusp, Gem Sun/Merc in 10th --technically it's a kite, if you including my Chiron in Aries). They have their own challenges, and being "lazy" is a stereotype that doesn't fit a lot of people with a grand trine. I think it was Noel Tyl that said a native with a grand trrien is a hard nut to crack. We tend to be self-enclosed, and often self-reliant and difficult to connect with, for better or worse. In this way, a grand trine can push someone - to be more and more self-reliant and independent. But unfortunately because we're hard to understand by many other people, we get misunderstood and certain stereotypes get perpetuated.

It's a challenge for a grand trine to open up and accept help and direction from the outside. There can be a lot of problems that occur because of this. For me, it's depression, which I've had a lifelong struggle with. A lot of my depression is related to an overriding conviction that i shoudl be better than I am, yet without letting other helps me (that 10th house Sun adds to that too). I was aware of my intellectual and artistic talents from a yong age, but I was so independent, I failed to get a lot of the support and nuturing I needed to succeed with those talents. Like a lot of grand trine people, I insisted on being overly independent at a very young age, and my parents and teacher relented (or just couldn't be bothered with such a difficult child). So I failed to develop some of the cooperative skills I would need to tackle other life issues later on.

As for famous people with grand trines, recently I have been looking at the chart for David Tennant, the 10th Doctor on Doctor Who, and he has a earth grand trine - Pluto in Virgo, Mars and Moon in Cap and Saturn in Taurus. I'll see if I can't post his chart in the celebrity astrology forum. Hardly a lazy person who's squandering his talent, Tennant's been noted for often saying he thrives on hard work. He's also says he had known from a young age he wanted to be an actor, and he has pursued that goal unwaveringly over his life.

Last edited by Lunar Pisces; 07-12-2007 at 01:09 AM.
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Unread 07-12-2007, 11:28 AM
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Re: grand trines

The manifestation & power of a grand trine depend on the planets, signs, and house placement. If a planet doesn't express easily in a sign, the "luckiness" of the configuration may be diminished (for example, Mars in Pisces, Saturn in Cancer)

I wish I had a fire grand trine, with Moon in Leo, Uranus in Aries and Jupiter in Sag...and a compatible Saturn. Would be exciting.

A few weeks ago I saw a documentary on an author, uneducated and undirected who suddenly, because of a minor event, began to write and his first book was a huge success. When I calculated his chart I wasn't surprised to see a grand trine with Saturn in Sag, Uranus in Aries and Sun/Venus in Leo. Often people who have early success in life have strong grand trines, especially in earth & fire, if the Sun is involved.

The author I mentioned, Hubert Silby who wrote Last Exit to Brooklyn, did experience difficulties--drug addiction which caused money problems but that can be attributed to other aspects in his chart, such as Jupiter & Mars in 2nd squaring the Leo planets. The grand trine involving Saturn, Uranus, and Sun/Venus indicated early sudden success.
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  #21  
Unread 07-12-2007, 03:18 PM
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Re: grand trines

I am wondering about the water trine. It can be a difficult one to have. Not because of the grand trine itself, but maybe becasue of a general attitude to emotion in society. It is often seen as a good thing to supress emotion and is often understood. The grand trine itself I believe give rise to empathy where the recipient is conscious of other peoples emotions within themselves. So confusion arises whether this is my feeling or someone elses. There is no common attitude or knowing about this so it often goes undectected adn therefore remains a source of confusion to those with a grand trine.

I have moon, neptune, and chiron/saturn in a water Grand trine. I am emotionally sensitive, which was supressed over time. People did not want to see my emotions expressed, it was not enforced as encouraged behaviour so it went underground this well of emotions within unsettling. When they become expressed you can start to work out what they are and where they came from. I use art to consciously process through all i feel and that has led to greater happiness within myself. I also note that my sensitivity to others emotions are not shared by many people.

Maybe I see it through the generations too, in my mother and grandmother (both GWT). So I see the transfering of attitudes over the generations.

I cry easily and feel a negative energy in a room (shouting etc) within my body as extreme tension. That is not easily accepted or understood in everyday life while you are working by many people, it is seen as a fault or a weakness by many.

I must say that I have a great respect for my reactions now, but am unsure as to what value they can be in the collective.

Love Light and Peace
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Unread 07-12-2007, 03:48 PM
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Wink Re: grand trines

I have often wondered about the grand water trine in my chart. I have Neptune 8 Scorpio H4, Chiron in 6 Pisces H8, and Mercury 9 Cancer H12. I don't see myself as particularly emotional, however I do see that I react emotionally to others pain and their suffering. I tend to be overly empathetic, but something allows me to let it wash over me and not latch on to my personage.

I think with the water trine there may be a particular sensitivity to psychic impressions or prophetic dreams, or maybe call it intuition. But, most of the time other people seek me out for that kind of information, but I feel I lack the ability to give it to them. But, when I do give in to others needs for psychic impressions I am right on the mark. I can't even begin to tell you the number of dreams that I have had that turn out to be prophetic or at the very least symbolic of something about to happen. I think perhaps the fact that Neptune is involved in the trine makes me hesitant to share impressions with people because I tend to think I'm "making things up" or "imagining" things. So even though the information readily flows through the trine - I have trouble believing in it enough to do anything about it.

My GWT is also part of a "kite" configuration with a sextile from Mercury in 12 to Venus in 10 and from Chiron in 8th to Venus in 10th. Seems like I am supposed to take this information out into the world or to the public in some way. And, as a matter of fact, I own a metaphsyical bookstore which puts me right into that world!

I also wonder if this GWT keeps me from allowing others to read me. I have attempted many times to have a reading of sorts, but I seem to block them from getting or receiving any information - although I don't believe I do this consciously.

Anyone else have any experience with psychic ability or intuition with a GWT?
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  #23  
Unread 07-13-2007, 12:24 PM
Spin Spin is offline
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Re: grand trines

I agree, Flea, the sensitivity of a water grand trine can be painful. It's overwhelming to be so receptive. But I think the emotional suppression you mentioned several times is probably attributable to Saturn in a water sign.

Saturn represents structure and water is free flowing so you can see the incompatibility. Saturn dams the emotions. Maybe a water sign Saturn indicates the need to develop emotional discipline, to funnel feelings into specific areas rather than spew all over. Maybe, since Saturn is the natural ruler of the 10th, the emotions can be focused/expressed through career.
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Unread 07-15-2007, 05:31 AM
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Re: grand trines

Yes I can see that Spin, as saturn is close to chiron, also indicates a need for healing stuff. Saturn I think is helpful in my creative, arty side which pops into my career now and then, which is when i am at my happiest. What do you feel about society's attitude to the emotional life??

Janorama, I do have intuitive responses to things even the most mundane. I kind of feel my way through things and then find out why along the way. I have neptune and chiron in the same signs as you but with trines to the moon in cancer

Love Light and peace
Flea

Last edited by flea; 07-15-2007 at 05:37 AM.
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Unread 07-17-2007, 12:39 AM
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Re: grand trines

Quote:
Originally Posted by flea
What do you feel about society's attitude to the emotional life??
The only society I'm familiar with is here in the US, and I'd say water is the least valued of all the elements. And it's certainly the most difficult to live with, especially in the frenetic, heavily populated 21st century. Being highly receptive, the water person needs solitude, just as an escape from the barrage of stimuli.

I don't have a water grand trine but definitely a strong influence in the element--Sun, Mercury, Mars in Pisces and Jupiter in Scorpio. And those planets include the rulers of my Asc and IC. I've found as I get older I've become even more reclusive. Like you, I tend to soak up the energy of those around me like a sponge. But I've never had people or situations discourage me from expressing my emotions. That disparity between us is probably connected to our different water planets--and other influences in our chart. As I mentioned in an earlier post, those suppressive experiences may reflect Saturn in water. You probably wouldn't have them if Venus was there instead. Saturn symbolizes discipline so emotion is the area it affects.

What planets were involved in your mother and grandmother's water grand trine? Was Saturn connected, either in the configuration or maybe opposition to one of the points?

Last edited by Spin; 07-17-2007 at 12:53 AM.
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