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Modern Astrology For discussions on Modern Astrology only. (Note: Typically, modern astrology is defined as using techniques developed around the late 1800s by Theosophists. Specifically it relies on psychological, evolutionary, karmic, and non-western interpretation approaches and includes Neptune, Uranus and Pluto, and non-Ptolemaic aspects. The focus is more on psychological chart interpretation instead of prediction.)


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  #1  
Unread 10-26-2019, 08:18 PM
Melbylorraine Melbylorraine is offline
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Legitimacy of the “Aries Alphabet”

I want to know everyone’s opinion on whether the Aries alphabet or 12 letter alphabet is legitimate, i.e. the system in which Aries equals first house, Taurus second house, Gemini third and so on. I ask because it wasn’t established until the 1970s by Zipporah Dobyns. While some of the connections make sense, does anyone on the forum find it to be contrived, having been so lately developed in the scope of a thousands of years old system?

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  #2  
Unread 10-26-2019, 09:08 PM
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Re: Legitimacy of the “Aries Alphabet”

I don't think much of it, for empirical reasons.

Some planet-sign-house combinations are pretty good match-ups, such as Jupiter-Sagittarius-9th house. Others are terrible, like Mars-Aries-1st house. Someone with Saturn rising in Virgo, for example, will be nothing like Mars or Aries.

There is a by-the-numbers tradition in medical astrology. For example, the 12th house and Pisces both rule the feet.

I have a big problem with cookbooks of planets in signs, or planets in houses. An example would be "Venus in Scorpio or the 8th house." Venus in Scorpio, OK, but if one's 8th house is ruled by Leo, it won't be anything like Scorpio.

Deborah Houlding, Houses: Temples of the Sky has a good discussion of the problem. She notes, for example, that Mercury is the traditional ruler of money, not Venus.
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  #3  
Unread 10-26-2019, 09:48 PM
Melbylorraine Melbylorraine is offline
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Thank you for the great insight. I agree that cookbook explanations can be problematic. And interesting about medical astrology associations. I know nothing about that topic. Many thanks.
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  #4  
Unread 10-27-2019, 10:05 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Legitimacy of the “Aries Alphabet”

I agree with Waybread for Western Astrology. Planet, sign and house are three totally different factors of perception in astro. interpretation.

Quote:
Deborah Houlding, Houses: Temples of the Sky has a good discussion of the problem. She notes, for example, that Mercury is the traditional ruler of money, not Venus.
I wonder whether this would be because of the Mercurial 'exchange and barter of/for goods' that needed money/natura to do so, whereas Venus would be associated with 'the possession of goods' after ownership has been duly paid.
(Just hypothetical thought, having little working knowledge of 'the other' side of Western astrology.)
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  #5  
Unread 10-27-2019, 12:20 PM
Melbylorraine Melbylorraine is offline
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Yes why have I never thought of that... mercury does seem to fit with trade, commerce, dealing with money and business as opposed to lush, warm, comfy Venus. She doesn’t seem like a businesswoman, more like the goddess of love that she is ha.
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  #6  
Unread 10-27-2019, 01:09 PM
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function matters, to Melby

Melby,

You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melbylorraine View Post
I want to know everyone’s opinion on whether the Aries alphabet or 12 letter alphabet is legitimate, i.e. the system in which Aries equals first house, Taurus second house, Gemini third and so on.
The strength of the system is its simplicity in that there is ONE key word for EACH sign/planet/house. The weakness of the system is that it EQUATES signs, planets, and houses. Signs, planets, and houses have different functions in the chart. An easy way to understand this is to use the "astro-sentence" for planets: SIGN modifies PLANET focused on HOUSE. So, using waybread's example, SCORPIO modifies VENUS creates the question: which HOUSE is this focused on? Similarly VENUS in the 8th HOUSE creates the question: what SIGN modifies Venus? Incomplete "astro-sentences" give incomplete chart interpretations. And, as waybread mentions, house focuses change how the planet works in the chart: for example, VENUS focused in the 8th HOUSE is VERY different from VENUS focused in the 2nd HOUSE.

More about a simple way to learn basic astrology using this "keyword" system in the link below.

Astro-simply,

Tim
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Last edited by wilsontc; 10-27-2019 at 01:12 PM.
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  #7  
Unread 10-27-2019, 10:22 PM
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Re: function matters, to Melby

Thanks, Tim--

I think of the planet as the "what," like the subject of a sentence. Signs are modifiers, like adjectives and adverbs. They give the "how." Houses work like prepositional phrases, indicating the "where" or "in what domain of life" a planet operates.

Melbylorraine, Venus does have a second house rulership, which is luxury goods like jewelry or expensive ornaments. Venus rules luxuries, especially those associated with women. It's a fine line, but Venusian goods aren't bought as investments, but because of their beauty. The second house connection is that they are part of someone's personal possessions.

This is unlike currency and trade, which belong to Mercury.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #8  
Unread 04-20-2020, 07:03 AM
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CapAquaPis CapAquaPis is offline
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Re: Legitimacy of the “Aries Alphabet”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melbylorraine View Post
I want to know everyone’s opinion on whether the Aries alphabet or 12 letter alphabet is legitimate, i.e. the system in which Aries equals first house, Taurus second house, Gemini third and so on. I ask because it wasn’t established until the 1970s by Zipporah Dobyns. While some of the connections make sense, does anyone on the forum find it to be contrived, having been so lately developed in the scope of a thousands of years old system?
Yes, an interesting concept of each first letter of one's first or last name (for women, maiden) and place or business names will fall under influence of a certain sign. My first name starts with the letter M, last name D and possibly mother's name U and where I live starts with the letters L for my city, C for my state and U for my nation. I have a combination of Aries/Libra, Cancer/Taurus and Capricorn/Scorpio as a person (Aquarius sun/moon with Cancer rising) and I reside in a place under Pisces/Virgo, Taurus/Gemini and Scorpio/Capricorn influences.

Aries: A, M and A/B
Taurus: B, N and C/D
Gemini: C, O and E/F
Cancer: D, P and G/H
Leo: E, Q/R and I/J
Virgo: F, S and K/L
Libra: G, T and M/N
Scorpio: H, U and O/P
Sagittarius: I, V and Q/R/S
Capricorn: J, W/X and T/U
Aquarius: K, Y and V/W
Pisces: L, Z and X/Y/Z
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or , I have the same ruling planets: Uranus and Saturn. I see the Cancer rising. Aries in the MC and Venus was her name!
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  #9  
Unread 04-20-2020, 01:58 PM
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sworm09 sworm09 is offline
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Re: Legitimacy of the “Aries Alphabet”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melbylorraine View Post
I want to know everyone’s opinion on whether the Aries alphabet or 12 letter alphabet is legitimate, i.e. the system in which Aries equals first house, Taurus second house, Gemini third and so on. I ask because it wasn’t established until the 1970s by Zipporah Dobyns. While some of the connections make sense, does anyone on the forum find it to be contrived, having been so lately developed in the scope of a thousands of years old system?
I think it ends up giving an already vague symbolic system even more vagueness. Astrological symbols are already so multilayered that narrowing down specific meanings is difficult, but equating symbols gets rid of some of the ways that we can narrow down what a factor means.

Let's say we have Sun in Aquarius in the 12th. Using conventional (albeit traditional) meanings for each of the factors, the Sun means things like honor, reputation, and rank. Aquarius can mean long lasting hardships, outsiders, and persistence. The 12th can mean isolation and hardship.

We can put these together to get multiple meanings. Perhaps the person will have to work very hard (Aquarius) over a long period of time (Aquarius) and with much difficulty (12th) to obtain recognition (Sun). Perhaps their father (Sun) was of low social class (Aquarius) and was absent in the native's life (12th).

Now if we use the astrological alphabet, the Sun means honor, rank, children, creativity, stubbornness (cause of Leo). Aquarius means outsiders, persistence, friend groups, hopes, and outsiders. The 12th means isolation, hardship, spirituality, instability (cause of Pisces).

You see how our number of potential possibilities just shot up? Add in aspects and it gets even worse. You can still get meaning out of it, but the meanings will tend to be more imprecise and harder to verify. How do I know if the Sun is talking about children or reputation? How do I know if the 12th is talking about spirituality or hardship? With that many possibilities you can almost never be wrong.

Let's say we want to look at relationships. Well we look at Venus (generally) and maybe the 7th house. If we use the astrological alphabet, we look at Venus, anything going on in Libra, and anything going on in the 7th house. Our range of potential interpretations widens, but our ability to be specific shrinks. Once again this gets worse if you consider aspects.

Last edited by sworm09; 04-20-2020 at 02:02 PM.
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  #10  
Unread 04-21-2020, 01:14 PM
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wilsontc wilsontc is offline
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addition, to storm

sworm,
You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sworm09 View Post
Let's say we have Sun in Aquarius in the 12th. Using conventional (albeit traditional) meanings for each of the factors, the Sun means things like honor, reputation, and rank. Aquarius can mean long lasting hardships, outsiders, and persistence. The 12th can mean isolation and hardship.

We can put these together to get multiple meanings...Add in aspects and it gets even worse. You can still get meaning out of it, but the meanings will tend to be more imprecise and harder to verify.
NOT if you use the astro-sentence (using your descriptions):
Aquarius modifies Sun focused on the 12th house
Aquarius (long lasting hardships, outsiders, and persistence) modifies Sun (honor, reputation, and rank) focused on the 12th house (isolation and hardship)

So someone who persists through hardships to preserve their reputation focuses on issues of isolation and hardship. That right there gives an IDEA of the person. Now if you ADD IN the aspects, you get a CLEARER picture of HOW this works. Maybe Sun is square Jupiter (expansion)

So
Sun (honor, reputation, and rank) squares (energy needs to be combined with) Jupiter (expansion)

Now we have someone who persists through hardships to preserve their reputation focuses on issues of isolation and hardship who needs to EXPAND all that somehow.

Personally, I have an astro-WORD for EACH of the 12 signs. The word for Aquarius is "friend," the word for Leo is "self-expression" (Sun rules Leo so they have the same astro-Word), and the word for Pisces is "spirituality" (Pisces rules 12th house so they have the same astro-word).

So
Aquarius modifies Sun focused on the 12th house
Aquarius (friends) modifies Sun (self-expression) focused on the 12th house (spirituality)

So someone uses friends to express themselves and develop their spirituality. HOW this works is up to the PERSON. THAT'S the human choice in these matters. The planets give people tools to do CERTAIN THINGS. But HOW they use these tools is UP TO THEM. That's why I think it's VERY IMPORTANT to learn astrology: so you understand what YOUR TOOLS ARE.

Explaining,

Tim
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