Human existence: the gender of God

leomoon

Well-known member
A Video of Israel my husband made for me to remember for those who care to watch it:


Israel & Bethlehem 2008 Video
4:19: Church of the Annunciation (in Nazareth); I loved this hilltop place, although I didn’t bother going into the church. I was too happy looking at all the outside mosaics sent here by children’s schools from all over the world on the outside courtyard you can see. I especially liked the one from the Coptic Church children in Egypt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dtqg4JXrcs&feature=youtu.be


4:59 - The Walls and fortress of the Islamic regime that captured the city in 638 A.D. has a Plaque named for [FONT=&quot]the saintly warrior [FONT=&quot]Omar[/FONT] Ibn [FONT=&quot]El Khattab[/FONT], who conquered [FONT=&quot]Jerusalem[/FONT] for Islam in a.d. 638[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Jaffa Gate:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jaffa Gate[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Old City Wall was erected by order of the Ottomon-Turkish sultan Suleiman the Magnificent in 1538. Some stones used dated from 2,000 years ago. Some from the Hasmonean or Maccabees. Some from the Byzantine era as well the undressed stones of Crusader and medieval times. Stones used time and time again by successive civilizations all made up the wall and fortress.
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6:58 = Garden of Gethsemane rock, where it is said Jesus prayed “take this cross from me” and sweated blood.
7min. Garden of Gethsemane
(my favorite place of all!) ...


7:13 Cesearea on the Sea (Mediterranean side) Roman ruins here
8:30 Bahai Gardens (northern direction near Nazareth) religion of the Persian Zoroaster is practiced by the Bab followers
8:43 our side trip to Bethlehem in Palestinian territory – Arafat photo as we enter the small city
Church of the Nativity (all faiths like Greek Orthodox, Coptic Christians, Russian Orthodox, etc are depicted here and have a section that is their’s) Its divided up in otherwords. Even the roof section is portioned off. We visit this 2,000 year old church some of it added onto since the time it was built by Emperor Constantine.
9:30 video mark – Church of the Nativity Jesus birth marked for the Emperor and the new faith as per his mother Queen Helena who was sent on an expedition to find these places and build a church everyplace Jesus had made significant. That is why the land is so full of churches everywhere :
The little place at the 9:30 mark in the video is the place they say the birth of Jesus was (see Star marked there) where the woman (and I) touch it - where the manger was said to be located that the baby was laid in. It’s highly doubtful of course , but we all behave as if it’s so…It’s a very revered place. It looks like a fireplace opening on the video…when you see it!
 

leomoon

Well-known member
from Waybread:

Edgar Cayce wrote from an avowedly Christian perspective, which is not accepted by people of other faiths or no faith. And then there's no way to fact-check a lot of his sayings.
Actually, he had two separate and distinct things going within him.

One was the trance state which gave information that floored him, so much so that he considered seriously "not going there" such as the concept of reincarnation.



In his waking life, he was a Bible School Teacher, whose church considered during his fame years to divorce themselves or distance themselves from him. Then he was the one with the strange utterings in a trance state from Astrology, to Reincarnational themes, to world events and of course to many rather miraculous cures (medical - enough to have eventually been named, "the Father of Holistic Medicine".



He wrestled greatly with the inward man, the outward was a simple simple man, who loved Christ, loved fishing and loved his family. BTW: if you ever see his own bio he once wrote in a library, you will be SHOCKED at just how simple and unassuming, plus illiterate he was in his awake state. He usually referred to himself as "Eddie" in the 3rd person.


This is also a reflection of why the trance state reading on his Natal positions called him "Strange" .... I'll see if I can find it for you and amend this post by adding it -


ADDED: * to me it waxes poetic, much like we'd expect from Pisces including the admonition to always live by deep waters, the sea....

His own reading 254-2 (partial)…
….As in this body here (EC) born March 18, 1877 three minutes past three o’clock with the Sun descending on the wane, the Moon in the opposite side of the Earth (old moon) Uranus at its zenith, hence the body is ultra in its actions. Neptune closest to conjunction or as it is termed in Astrological survey at the time of the birth of this body, either (no middle ground for this body) very good or very bad, very religious or very wicked, very rich or always losing, very much in love or hate, very much given to good works or always doing wrong, governed entirely by the will of the body.
Will is the educational factor of the body; thence the patience, the persistence, the ever faithful attention that should be given to the child when young.
As to the forces of this body, the psychical is obtained through action of Uranus and of Neptune, always it has been to this body and always will, just outside the action of fire-arms, yet ever within them, just saved financially and spiritually by the action of great amount of water – the body should live close to the sea, and should always have done so. The body is strange to other bodies in all of its actions, in the psychical life, in all of its ideas as expressed in the spiritual life as to its position on all matter pertaining to political, religious or ecumenical positions. This body will either be very rich or very poor” (extracted from the longer reading)
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Isn't there a "Day of Judgment" in the Hebrew scripture , where the dead awake from slumber in the underworld?

The beliefs on "the end of days" are summarized here, if it's any help. Beliefs are multiple and they don't all agree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology

One thing I'd point out, though, is that Judaism does not have a worked-out belief in an afterlife, as does Christianity. The saying is that we don't know anybody who died and then came back to tell us about it. (Jews do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus.)

Another thing, is that in some sense, judgment of observant Jews is an ongoing part of the Jewish calendar. In the days leading up to Yom Kippur, Jews are asked to make up for any transgressions they may have committed against other people. It's a time to make amends.
 

petosiris

Banned
There are other (non-glorified) resurrections in the Bible - 1 Kings 17:21-22, 2 Kings 4:32-35, 2 Kings 13:20-21, Luke 7:13-15, Luke 8:52-55 and John 11:43-44.

The resurrection of Jesus is more well documented than any of these with over five hundred eyewitnesses. Some Jews would say that even if the resurrection of Jesus did occur, he still isn't going to be the Messiah.
 

david starling

Well-known member
I read some Christian opinions regarding the word "Satan", and not all believe in an actual Being with that name, just anyone in authority with evil intent.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Jesus called Peter Satan - Matthew 16:23. The actual being that is chief in the demonic world is Ha-Satan - The Satan.

Satan isn't real. There is no "demonic world."

As Leomoon pointed out, the belief in Satan is a human creation.

The God who created the cosmos, and who is all-powerful, all-pervasive, and the paramount symbol of love, is far stronger than any folklore or superstitions about non-existent demons.
 

waybread

Well-known member
There are no 500 documentations of the resurrection of Jesus. During his lifetime and shortly thereafter, Jesus is not mentioned outside of the NT and aprocrypha. The mention in Josephus is a post-hoc addition by an editor. But you're right. The Jewish criteria for the Messiah of the end-of-days include a time of peace, and this hasn't happened yet.
 

petosiris

Banned
There are no 500 documentations of the resurrection of Jesus. During his lifetime and shortly thereafter, Jesus is not mentioned outside of the NT and aprocrypha. The mention in Josephus is a post-hoc addition by an editor. But you're right. The Jewish criteria for the Messiah of the end-of-days include a time of peace, and this hasn't happened yet.

The mention of the martyrdom of his brother (who saw him after the resurrection) by Josephus is not an addition. NT and apocrypha is not small amount of evidence.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Jesus called Peter Satan - Matthew 16:23. The actual being that is chief in the demonic world is Ha-Satan - The Satan.

So, not necessarily of evil intent, just adversarial to God's plan for humanity; although, possibly with good intentions while lacking an understanding concerning God's intentions.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Petosiris, I am under no obligation to answer any of your questions. You haven't answered some of mine (like who you think my "teachers" are, since I am secular,) but who's keeping score?

For me personally, I don 't take the Bible literally, and I don't believe that Isaiah predicted Jesus as the suffering servant , so your question about Isaiah 53 actually doesn't make much sense to me. Isaiah 53, as a work of literature, speaks profoundly to human suffering, and I find sufficient meaning in that alone.

The historical Jesus would have been well-versed in the Jewish Bible, and it is interesting how sometimes he deliberately seems to have organized his life so as to fulfill particulars of the prophets' sayings about the messiah. In the NT his life was not full of crushing punishment, however, until the very end.

In the OT, it frequently happens that divine punishment might be incurred by one individual but it is applied generally.

There is also a lot of cultural astronomy in both the OT and NT, but that's another topic.

In terms of some kind of normative Jewish interpretation, one thing to keep in mind, is that with a Jewish tradition spanning many centuries and far-flung countries, and no centralized authority like the Pope, it is not unusual to find differences of opinion in scriptural interpretations.

The servant mentioned in Is. 53 is nowhere in this chapter called the Messiah. The servant might have been a metaphor for the Jewish people, or perhaps a specific leader (for whom there were several Jewish candidates. King Hezekiah is a likely one.) Isaiah was written at a time of devastating wars. Punishment from God was sometimes likened to a father punishing his child-- a harsh but necessary corrective.

Some Jews, like some Christians and members of other faiths, have sometimes followed charismatic leaders-- with disastrous results. Generally they ultimately realized that these leaders were not the Messiah.

Again, you cannot take any one sect or event as somehow normative of the whole. The Lubavitchers (Chabad) are a Chassidic sect.

Petosiris, I early mentioned the major groups within Judaism. There are many minor ones. Orthodox Jews of Ashkenazi (eastern European) background can generally be divided into two groups: the Chassidim and the Mitnagdim. The Chassids embrace a more mystical, even magical world view. The Mitnagdim basically includes Orthodox Jews who function more normally in modern society. Neither group is affiliated with the more liberal Conservative and Reform movements of North America.

There is an old saying that if you get 3 Jews together in a discussion, you will hear 4 different opinions. But the gist of this joke is that it is important to understand the differences between groups of Jews. They are comparative to the divisions within Christianity between Roman Catholics, eastern Orthodox, "high" and "low" church Protestants, Mormons, Pentacostals, Anabaptists, &c.

There is a common core for the Jewish denominations, but you're not going to find it with your focus on messianic biblical proof texts. Maybe start by understanding the core of Jewish worship today. For instance, like the Shema (Sh'ma) prayer, which is so central.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-shema/
 
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waybread

Well-known member
The mention of the martyrdom of his brother (who saw him after the resurrection) by Josephus is not an addition. NT and apocrypha is not small amount of evidence.

The point being, that these are not historical evidence.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Josephus

I fully believe that there was an actual man named Jesus, a Jewish reformer, who preached a stringent code of ethics, and attracted followers. I can also believe that at some point Jesus and his followers believed that he was the Messiah of the end-of-days. From these beliefs they fashioned a powerful new religion called Christianity.

But honestly, Petosiris, that's about it.
 

petosiris

Banned
You haven't answered some of mine (like who you think my "teachers" are, since I am secular,) but who's keeping score?

Here they are ''Prior to converting I was required to take a serious conversion class by a Conservative rabbi at the Hillel house at the university where my ex and I were then students. I had to appear in front of a Bet Din, or kind of examining committee of 3 rabbis.'' I wouldn't call that secular teaching.

The servant mentioned in Is. 53 is nowhere in this chapter called the Messiah. The servant might have been a metaphor for the Jewish people, or perhaps a specific leader (for whom there were several Jewish candidates. King Hezekiah is a likely one.) Isaiah was written at a time of devastating wars. Punishment from God was sometimes likened to a father punishing his child-- a harsh but necessary corrective.

How did the wounds of Hezekiah (?) or the suffering of the Jews say in the Holocaust (in agreement with some of the passage) bring healing? Whose wounds have brought more healing to the nations - Is. 53:5 than Jesus'? Jews before Jesus recognized these passages as referring to the Messiah - https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1327&context=lts_fac_pubs as did some of your teachers after Jesus' birth.

Some Jews, like some Christians and members of other faiths, have sometimes followed charismatic leaders-- with disastrous results. Generally they ultimately realized that these leaders were not the Messiah.

Again, you cannot take any one sect or event as somehow normative of the whole. The Lubavitchers (Chabad) are a Chassidic sect.

Your claim that the Messiah must rebuid the temple in Jerusalem and ensure a new era of world peace before he can be recognized is clearly mistaken and uninformed, as your people have accepted other people as Christs who also haven't fulfilled these things, some of which are asleep unlike Jesus who said ''For many shall come in my name, saying, ''I am the Anointed'', and they shall lead many astray.''

There is a common core for the Jewish denominations, but you're not going to find it with your focus on messianic biblical proof texts. Maybe start by understanding the core of Jewish worship today. For instance, like the Shema (Sh'ma) prayer, which is so central.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-shema/

See Mark 12:28-34.
 
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petosiris

Banned
The point being, that these are not historical evidence.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Josephus

I fully believe that there was an actual man named Jesus, a Jewish reformer, who preached a stringent code of ethics, and attracted followers. I can also believe that at some point Jesus and his followers believed that he was the Messiah of the end-of-days. From these beliefs they fashioned a powerful new religion called Christianity.

But honestly, Petosiris, that's about it.

What is not historical evidence? Why are you quoting a biased wiki?

''That, indeed, Josephus did say something about Jesus is indicated, above all, by the passage - the authenticity of which has been almost universally acknowledged about James, who is termed (A XX, 200) the brother of ''the aforementioned Christ''.'' - Feldman, L. H., & Hata, G. (Eds.). (1987). Josephus, judaism, and christianity. Brill.

Your belief about Jesus is quite irrational in my opinion, since his brother died preaching Jesus as Christ to the Ninevetes, which he wouldn't have done if he was making it up.

Every religion can claim martyrdom, for example the martyrs (if we can call them such, rather than murderers) of 9/11 died for their beliefs and the traditions of their forefathers, likewise Jews, Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants all have martyrs who died for very different belief systems.

But the persecution and martyrdom of the apostles of Jesus Christ was different chiefly in this - they were eyewitnesses of what they died for. Let one explain why they would prefer chains, persecutions and death (from both the Gentiles and the Jews) rather than to profit from their supposed lie about the resurrection of our Lord.

I would like to see historical evidence backing your claim.
 
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petosiris

Banned
Here's a Jewish joke I heard, regarding Jesus: "One of our boys made it!"

I don't believe Jesus ever claimed to be God. Neither did 5 or 6 of your Presidents who were Unitarians!

Jesus claimed to be the Lord Messiah and the shaliah of God who is given the divine name (he is representative of God), but not ontologically being the only true God - his Father (John 17:3).

Also it is God <the Father> that made Jesus Lord and Christ.

Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of himself, unless it is something he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. - John 5:19

''Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know - this man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put him to death. But God raised him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for him to be held in its power... Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ - this Jesus whom you crucified.'' - Acts 2
 
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CapAquaPis

Well-known member
The beliefs on "the end of days" are summarized here, if it's any help. Beliefs are multiple and they don't all agree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology

One thing I'd point out, though, is that Judaism does not have a worked-out belief in an afterlife, as does Christianity. The saying is that we don't know anybody who died and then came back to tell us about it. (Jews do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus.)

Another thing, is that in some sense, judgment of observant Jews is an ongoing part of the Jewish calendar. In the days leading up to Yom Kippur, Jews are asked to make up for any transgressions they may have committed against other people. It's a time to make amends.

The near death phenomena or out of body experience, as well the pseudoscientific reincarnation theory are the closest studied sources of millions of people who claimed to had died and came back alive.

Jesus Christ is an important figure in Christianity, discussed in the Quran in Islam but he's only a prophet to them, and studied at least in Judaism who does not view him as the son of God or Messiah they still await.

Christianity, in particular, Roman Catholicism, venerate jesus' mother the Virgin Mary stating she had a baby by the act of God. This was borrowed from Roman and European paganism of a mother Earth goddess deity either had or didn't have s*x.

Yes, many Jews in Judaism either do not believe in a heaven a Christian and Muslim is taught to believe it is finite or real... or have their own personal version and idea of what the afterlife would be like.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Petosiris, re: your post #388, I hope that in these difficult times, people of faith are thinking through the meaning of love for one's neighbour, and helping the vulnerable members of our society. Fundamentally religion is not about a self-righteous insisting upon points of doctrine or proof texts, but in expressing one's compassion for humanity in practical and spiritual ways.

I hope you are surviving your covid-19 seclusion in good health.

I wonder if, in a previous lifetime, you were one of the medieval clergymen involved in disputations with the Jews! These were basically command performances designed to trick the Jewish representative into holding an untenable position, thus "demonstrating" the "superiority" of Christianity. Since Jews who were persuasive debaters risked banishment or endangering their community, the sensible course of action was simply to let the Christian side win. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputation

You obviously made up some thoughts about "my teachers" prior to my mentioning my conversion. I converted to Judaism in 1973 (that's nearly 47 years ago) with a single teacher, the Hillel rabbi on the campus where I was a student. He was a Conservative rabbi, not Orthodox. The Bet Din (beit din) rabbis do not function as teachers, but as a specially convened examining committee, or judges. I can't recall if I even did a Bible study or Jewish living type of course after that. I did study modern Hebrew for a bit, but this was a secular study.

Obviously you're going to stick to your guns on Jesus as the man meant in Isaiah 53. As a Christian, how could you believe otherwise? The Jewish tradition and I personally just do not share your insistence on a literal interpretation of this chapter as presaging Jesus, when it seems so metaphorical and allegorical. If you read Is. 52-54 to get the fuller meaning of this portion of the book, you can see how metaphorical it is.

Isaiah 53 obviously says nothing about the Holocaust, nothing about Jesus, and nothing using the word Messiah; although we can easily infer from it a longing for a Redeemer. It was probably written during the Jewish exile in Babylon. It says nothing about King Hezekiah, although some interpreters think it refers to devastating wars during his reign.

Even if we read Isaiah 53 as expressing beliefs about the longed-for Messiah, Jesus simply doesn't fit Jewish messianic beliefs.

Just for comparison, how many times in Christian history did a group of True Believers think the End Is Nigh only to find out they were mistaken? As with Christianity, Judaism has a history of one group or another periodically claiming the Messiah, but always these beliefs were soon shown to be in error. We still have the Jewish diaspora, no Temple, and warfare. And nothing in Isaiah is going to change that.

To say that Jesus brought "healing to the nations" sounds like a cruel joke to Jewish victims of pogroms, exile, forced conversions, torture, and the Holocaust at the hands of Christians. Then let's not forget the Crusades, the witch-burnings of Europe, and violence between Catholics and Protestants.

I'm not making up Jewish messianic beliefs, Petosiris. Here's another link for you:
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/what-do-jews-believe-about-jesus/

The passages from Mark that you cited exactly indicate the central core of Judaism, which the Jewish Jesus emphasized.
 

petosiris

Banned
To say that Jesus brought "healing to the nations" sounds like a cruel joke to Jewish victims of pogroms, exile, forced conversions, torture, and the Holocaust at the hands of Christians.

Jesus died a cursed death forsaken by God in order to heal the nations. Only when your nation accepts him in the greater tribulation of the last seven years of this age, will the dead rise from their sleep. Not even Jesus knew the day or the hour of his coming, so I don't see how ''True Believers'' would know it.
 
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