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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 12-06-2021, 01:13 PM
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Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

*



Ancient texts support MERCURY ruling astrology.
According to traditional astrology it's Mercurius
also
TRADITIONALLY
Only THE SEVEN ANCIENT CLASSICAL PLANETS can '..rule..' anything
by definition







.

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Unread 12-06-2021, 06:39 PM
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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

Mercury is the traditional ruler of astrology in traditional astrology only on this particular traditional astrology board.
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Unread 12-07-2021, 06:23 AM
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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

Support for Mercury as the ruler of traditional astrology comes from mythology. The Sumerian goddess Nisaba (Nidaba) ruled scribes and counting. She kept a star list on lapis luzuli tablets. Her role was usurped by the Babylonian god Nebo (Nabu,) and subsequently by Hermes and Mercury. Manilius in Astronomica(ca 30-40 CE) attributes astrology to Mercury in his dedication.
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Unread 12-07-2021, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Support for Mercury as the ruler of traditional astrology comes from mythology. The Sumerian goddess Nisaba (Nidaba) ruled scribes and counting. She kept a star list on lapis luzuli tablets. Her role was usurped by the Babylonian god Nebo (Nabu,) and subsequently by Hermes and Mercury. Manilius in Astronomica(ca 30-40 CE) attributes astrology to Mercury in his dedication.
We could include the ancient Greco/Roman goddess of the Heavens, Ourania/Urania, as an alternative to her grandfather, the deposed Greco/Roman god of the Heavens, Ouranos/Caelus. That would make it obvious as to which ancient deity astrology and astronomy should be attributed, since she was literally the Greco/Roman "MUSE of Astrology and Astronomy".

Unless, of course, there's an objection to a ancient goddess ruling astrology, instead of an ancient god.

Last edited by david starling; 12-07-2021 at 07:29 AM.
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Unread 12-07-2021, 09:35 PM
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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

Bunraku, it is highly likely that Ptolemy observed Uranus (150 CE) but he thought it was a fixed star. Several 17th century astronomers clearly did observe and catalogue Uranus, but they thought it was a fixed star. Hershel's big discovery in 1781 was in observing that Uranus actually moved: slowly, but it did move; which led to its reclassification as a planet.

Just to keep things as traditional as possible here, modern astrology did not begin to emerge until the late 19th century. Traditional western astrology nearly died out in the 18th and early 19th centuries but it was the only kind still practiced then.

(See Nicholas Campion's 2-volume history of astrology for details.)

The planet Uranus (Greek Ouranos) was probably assigned the modern rulership of astrology because the ancient god Uranus was the primordial "father sky" complement to "mother earth," or Gaia. There weren't a lot of myths about him, but he was frequently mentioned in Antiquity as the personification of the starry night sky.
https://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Ouranos.html

Also, Uranus was the planet that pushed back the frontiers of the known solar system.

When several traditional astrologers first started to work with Uranus in the early 19th century, they thought it was a malefic similar to Saturn, and assigned Uranus the same essential dignities.

It is interesting that mythologically the son of Uranus was Saturn (Greek Kronos) who rules the concept of time. Anciently before paper calendars were invented, people observed the night sky to note the passage of time.

Urania was something else again. She was one of the muses, who symbolized astronomy and astrology. https://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/MousaOurania.html

The assignment of Mercury (Greek Hermes) to astrology is also ancient.
https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Hermes.html As I mentioned earlier, this is probably because he took over the functions earlier Mesopotamian scribe gods in ancient Greece. In ancient Mesopotamia, scribes and priests presided over observing and recording the positions of heavenly bodies. Also, as the ruler of our mental faculties, Hermes was credited with inventing various branches of learning, including astrology.
https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Hermes.html
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Unread 12-07-2021, 09:39 PM
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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
What's the purpose in designating a "ruler of astrology"?
David, this might come in handy in a chart reading. Suppose someone asks if she could succeed as a professional astrologer. It would be helpful to look at the planetary ruler of astrology in relation to her MC or other chart factors.
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Unread 12-08-2021, 03:14 AM
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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

JA, try to relax around the history of astrology a little bit.

Traditional astrology persisted in anglophone countries, albeit at a minimal level, through the middle of the 19th century. You can't realistically suppress astrological history that is relevant to this period. The traditional astrologers of that time weren't living in caves, unaware of advances in planetary astronomy, but just weren't sure how to deal with them.

It turns out that a lot of what you have posted is irrelevant to your thread title.

Maybe you can quote some more ancient texts on Mercury as the ruler of astrology.
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Unread 12-08-2021, 04:10 AM
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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

Hey Ya'll. We aren't so far gone it's a free for all yet. Keep topics relevant to the board. Please stop feeding trolls. And go on about your business. I deleted off topic comments, off board comments, and replies to same.

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Unread 12-08-2021, 01:14 PM
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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
JA, try to relax around the history of astrology a little bit.

Traditional astrology persisted in anglophone countries, albeit at a minimal level, through the middle of the 19th century. You can't realistically suppress astrological history that is relevant to this period. The traditional astrologers of that time weren't living in caves, unaware of advances in planetary astronomy, but just weren't sure how to deal with them.

It turns out that a lot of what you have posted is irrelevant to your thread title.

Maybe you can quote some more ancient texts on Mercury as the ruler of astrology.
The OP clearly states that traditional astrology utilises
the SEVEN VISIBLE PLANETS
do attempt to relax and accept that WB

now if you can quote ancient texts

that support Sun, Moon, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn
as alternatives to MERCURY being the traditional ruler of astrology
then by all means do so


.
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Unread 12-08-2021, 10:20 PM
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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

That's not the point, JA.

Nobody's disputing the Ptolemaic tables, which you posted twice. Sect is irrelevant. Your thread title is about how ancient texts support Mercury as the ruler of astrology. [Which obviously is the only type of astrology an ancient text could support. Duh, uh.] Ptolemy's table (or the Egyptian terms, for that matter,) do not address this question. Mercury's planetary strengths and weaknesses in the horoscope say nothing about its rulership of astrology. Ptolemy giving Mercury authority over astrologers does say something about it.

You might want to look at the hermetic writings ["hermetic"= of Hermes, the Greek name for Mercury] attributed to Hermes Trismegistus, an amalgam of the Greek god Hermes and the Egyptian scribe god Thoth. Writings attributed to Hermes Trismegistus were probably penned by several authors in Egypt during the early decades CE. But these authors point to the Egyptianized Greek god Hermes as the founder of astrology, at least its more magical ancient uses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_Trismegistus


Please identify some ancient texts for us giving Mercury the rulership of astrology, like Manilius, Astronomica.

Since you're a big fan of Vettius Valens, you might have pointed out what he says about Mercury in Book One of his Anthologies: "It also rules those skilled interpreters of the
heavens."

https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 12-08-2021 at 10:24 PM.
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Unread 12-08-2021, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
That's not the point, JA.

Nobody's disputing the Ptolemaic tables, which you posted twice. Sect is irrelevant. Your thread title is about how ancient texts support Mercury as the ruler of astrology. [Which obviously is the only type of astrology an ancient text could support. Duh, uh.] Ptolemy's table (or the Egyptian terms, for that matter,) do not address this question. Mercury's planetary strengths and weaknesses in the horoscope say nothing about its rulership of astrology. Ptolemy giving Mercury authority over astrologers does say something about it.

You might want to look at the hermetic writings ["hermetic"= of Hermes, the Greek name for Mercury] attributed to Hermes Trismegistus, an amalgam of the Greek god Hermes and the Egyptian scribe god Thoth. Writings attributed to Hermes Trismegistus were probably penned by several authors in Egypt during the early decades CE. But these authors point to the Egyptianized Greek god Hermes as the founder of astrology, at least its more magical ancient uses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_Trismegistus


Please identify some ancient texts for us giving Mercury the rulership of astrology, like Manilius, Astronomica.

Since you're a big fan of Vettius Valens, you might have pointed out what he says about Mercury in Book One of his Anthologies: "It also rules those skilled interpreters of the
heavens."

https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf
This suggests that an astrologer's Mercury placement and its Natal-chart condition would influence the interpretations themselves. Which would explain the different opinions among astrologers--their different "angles of view".
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Unread 12-08-2021, 10:44 PM
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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

Quote:
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Your thread title is about how ancient texts


support Mercury as the ruler of astrology.

[Which obviously
is the only type of astrology
an ancient text could support.

Duh, uh.]


Indeed




.
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Unread 12-09-2021, 04:56 AM
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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
This suggests that an astrologer's Mercury placement and its Natal-chart condition would influence the interpretations themselves. Which would explain the different opinions among astrologers--their different "angles of view".
Sticking to traditional astrology, you would want to look at Mercury's essential dignities and debilities. The table attributed to Ptolemy that JA posted indicates what these are.

You would also look at "accidental" dignities and debilities: whether Mercury is in a "good" or "bad" house, whether it is in an angular house, and its relationships to other planets through aspects (like a trine vs. a square) or proximity. The latter would be something like whether Mercury is combust the sun, cazimi, or besieged (between Saturn and Mars.)

The planet in a chart with the highest level of essential dignity is called the almuten. The planet with the highest level of essential plus accidental dignity is called the lord of the geniture, so it would be good if Mercury were one of these.

There's probably no end to additional variables one could look at (conjunctions with fixed stars, Arabic parts, &c) but basically I would start with assessing Mercury's condition: is it strong or weak?

Beyond that, Mercury's sign and house would indicate how and in what part of life Mercury operates.
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Unread 12-09-2021, 05:02 AM
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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
on the contrary
[/B][/COLOR]
Traditional astrological SECT is foundational
JA, I am just looking at your thread title. You wrote it, not me. Maybe you should ask one of the moderators to change your thread title to better indicate whatever it was you actually had in mind.

Sect has nothing to do with Mercury as the traditional ruler of astrology.
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Unread 12-09-2021, 05:04 AM
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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

JA, it's nice that you think so highly of Vettius Valens. But odd that you didn't mention him as assigning astrology to Mercury.
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Unread 12-09-2021, 05:10 AM
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Question Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
David, this might come in handy in a chart reading. Suppose someone asks if she could succeed as a professional astrologer. It would be helpful to look at the planetary ruler of astrology in relation to her MC or other chart factors.
So, would it also affect the type of astrology one practices?

For example I have retrograde Mercury at 19 degrees Pisces, and my Asc. is at 15 degrees Pisces. So, that's 1st House Whole-sign or 12th House Placidus. It's also conjunct Mars at 17 degrees Pisces, and very wide orb to my M.C. in Sagittarius.

Maybe that's why I've avoided becoming a professional astrologer, but am extremely involved with it on a personal level, and in a person-to-person manner. (Whole-sign does fit me best.)

Last edited by david starling; 12-09-2021 at 05:26 AM.
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Unread 12-09-2021, 06:22 AM
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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

Alas, David-- your Mercury is in the sign of its fall, and retrograde to boot. But it is in its own terms and face, so it's not bereft of essential dignity.

In any case, your charm and good looks more than make up for it.

My impression is that traditional astrologers have more "conservative" charts, like an emphasis in Capricorn. Also, some have difficult placements in the type of astrology that Dare Not Speak Its Name on this board; so traditional astrology makes them feel a bit better about themselves.

Astrology is a very mental exercise-- at one time astrologers had to do all of the chart construction calculations by hand. In ancient Roman sources, astrologers were called "mathematicians." Mercury seems like a fitting ruler So the position and condition of one's Mercury should have a big effect. Maybe not on whether or not you will do astrology, but what type you will do and how you would go about it.
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Unread 12-09-2021, 07:55 AM
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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

Traditionally, the astrologers' aspect goes: Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn all aspecting each other.



Quote:
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This suggests that an astrologer's Mercury placement and its Natal-chart condition would influence the interpretations themselves. Which would explain the different opinions among astrologers--their different "angles of view".
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Unread 12-09-2021, 08:13 AM
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Question Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

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Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
Traditionally, the astrologers' aspect goes: Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn all aspecting each other.
What about squaring, trining, conjunct or opposite?
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Unread 12-09-2021, 11:08 AM
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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

Those all count. And yes, I've got that configuration myself, with three of those planets angular - it's a ring of sextiles in my case, ending in an opposition.



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What about squaring, trining, conjunct or opposite?
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Unread 12-09-2021, 05:54 PM
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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Sect is irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post

on the contrary

Traditional astrological SECT is foundational

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

JA, I am just looking at your thread title.
You wrote it, not me.
Siriusly Duh, uh

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Maybe you should ask one of the moderators
to change your thread title
to better indicate whatever it was you actually had in mind.
You were once a moderator on our forum WB
perhaps
you should request to return to being a moderator
so that
you can alter thread titles at will

ALTERNATIVELY
you are free to commence your own thread
to better indicate whatever it was you actually had in mind
because
the title of this thread requires no alteration
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Sect has nothing to do with Mercury as the traditional ruler of astrology.
on the contrary WB

SECT has EVERYTHING to do with traditional astrology
and
clearly
MERCURY is the TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY
and
obviously SECT is pivotal


.
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Unread 12-09-2021, 09:33 PM
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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

Don't get so huffy, JA.

Quite simply, sect and essential dignities and debilities have zero to do with why Mercury is the traditional planetary ruler of astrology. All of the traditional planets have these in one form or another. The question is why Mercury instead of some other planet.

There is an interesting Sumerian hymn to the goddess Nisaba (Nidaba) who is the Mesopotamian prototype of Mercury. Like Virgo, which Mercury rules, Nisaba ruled grain and grain stores, essential to the early city-states.
http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/amgg/l...aba/index.html

From the need to keep track of grain tributes, Nisaba became the ruler of accounting. This was an early scribal function, so she became the patron of scribes. Keeping track of stars and planets was another scribal function.
"Lady coloured like the stars of heaven, {holding} {(3 mss. have instead perfectly endowed with} a lapis-lazuli tablet!

[The god Enki] "has opened up Nisaba's house of learning, and has placed the lapis-lazuli tablet on her knees, for her to consult the holy tablet of the heavenly stars."
https://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bi...text=t.4.16.1#

The Sumerians developed the sexagesimal (base-60) arithmetic system that is the basis for our 360 degree horoscope and compass bearings, hours, and minutes.

With the passage of time, Nisaba was "demoted" to being the wife of the Babylonian god Nabu (Nebo,) who took over her functions and became the prototype for the Greek Hermes and Roman Mercury.

The ancient Mesopotamians believed that the planets were gods of their pantheon; or at least the omens of their gods. Which is why the Old Testament is critical of star-gazers, because it would have been a violation of the first commandment. (You shall have no other gods before Me.)
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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

Bunraku, I just learned that the ancient Greeks called the study of the heavens "Uranology," after the god who personified the starry heavens: Uranus (Ouranos in Greek.) There was no planet named for the god Uranus in ancient times: rather he ruled or personified the entire sky.

The terms astronomy and astrology apparently came later.

We see in the ancient god's name Uranus, the earlier Babylonian creator god's name Anu. He was also deemed to personify the entire sky. It is well known that Greco-Roman cultures borrowed heavily from Mesopotamia. They simply added a prefix meaning "primeval" (ur) and suffix (us- a masculine ending) to their cognate god's name
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Smile Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Bunraku, I just learned that the ancient Greeks called the study of the heavens "Uranology," after the god who personified the starry heavens: Uranus (Ouranos in Greek.) There was no planet named for the god Uranus in ancient times: rather he ruled or personified the entire sky.

The terms astronomy and astrology apparently came later.

They came in when Urania was goddess of the Heavens, and Muse of Astrology and astronomy, which were intertwined. She's depicted as holding an astrolabe and a pointer.
anaa
Personally, I conflate Ouranos with Ourania (his granddaughter by Mnemosyne, goddess of Memory, and Zeus, king of the gods). In Latin, Ouranos became known as Caelus, but Ourania is closer to the Greek name in Latin, Urania.

The "Uran" prefix, meaning "the Heavens" is what really matters.

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Re: Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Don't get so huffy, JA.
Quite simply, sect and essential dignities and debilities
have zero to do with why Mercury
is the traditional planetary ruler of astrology.
All of the traditional planets have these in one form or another.
The question is why Mercury instead of some other planet.


calm down WB
the OP states clearly
that
Ancient Texts Support MERCURY
As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY
and
obviously
because
MERCURY is the TRADITIONAL ruler of astrology
Whether the chart is a Day Chart or a Night Chart
is foundational for traditional astrological delineation of MERCURY
and furthermore
MERCURY requires a complicated analysis
in order to determine
whether, for each individual natal chart
Mercury is a Day planet
or a Night planet
SECT is foundational



.
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