Unused Horary Question - Redo?

Hi I asked a question - to myself - and created a chart about a week ago. I can't interpret horary just yet, I can pick things out but understand the meaning or result. I have not posted it or asked anyone about it. But, I suppose it was otherwise created or asked.

Is it possible to move on from this? What are the rules about rephrasing questions?

Thank you

Byjove,

It may be best to consider such a question never asked. Several horary authors (Masha'allah, Sahl, Bonatti, Umar, etc) are quite clear about the way in which questions should be asked and presented, and moving aside from Bonatti's quite poignant views of what all should occur for a question to be successful (movement of the soul, will, and stars), the most common rule is that astrologers should not ask questions to themselves.

There are a few philosophical reasons for this, but none of these are particularly relevant to this instance. However, since you have no horary training and are unable to move forward with the chart, it is best to forget about it and wait until you can present your question to someone who can read it and work with you through whatever situation you are struggling with.

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it.

Hmm well I hoped to post it here. Thankfully I've been fortunate that some people had the time to analyse some of my charts.

Because my knowledge of horary is limited (I have read the FAQs here of course, and others) I knew I wouldn't get far on my own.

I know that the same question can't be asked twice. But I wondered about what to do in this situation - it's unread, like an un-turned tarot card or something. Do I pick again? If I'm not going against the rules, I could ask a totally different question about the situation (not just rephrasing which won't work I believe)?

Thanks

post a chart lets take a look!

Hi, here is the chart. It happened to be 6am exactly, it was recorded accurately.

ok ..i wouldnt rerun a chart for 1 reason... if sun or saturn had been changing signs aka were placed near 25 degs i would have said.. "things will change" but here we see no changes and both planets are fixed.

T

Good to know , the chart will work. So should I use the chart in this thread , start it in relationship or request a move?

you can continue

byjove said:

I know that the same question can't be asked twice. But I wondered about what to do in this situation - it's unread, like an un-turned tarot card or something. Do I pick again? If I'm not going against the rules, I could ask a totally different question about the situation (not just rephrasing which won't work I believe)?

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The tarot analogy isn't a very good one as tarot doesn't really seem to have any rules about the method and subject of questioning, whereas horary does.

This could be an interesting time to reflect on the method in which horary information is shared in the modern era (particularly on a forum that suffers from a lack of admin-power and a lack of understanding of horary in general) and how it was shared in the past. Our horary examples in literature (classical and modern) are handed down from the astrologer who interpreted it, typically being approached by a client themselves and working through it with them to arrive at an answer or some advice on how to change it. While these types of charts are good for book-learning, it's clear that this is not something many people on the internet want as a tool for learning horary; many known-answer charts that are posted go unanswered while the influx of random questions from individuals asked to themselves draw the most attention.

What is most interesting is that this is something of a phenomenon in the modern astrological climate. I suspect that this is because of the vast amount of influence Christian Astrology and Olivia Barclay had over the early development of horary during the early revival. This is partly because Lilly breaks with tradition without explanation in several places and because Barclay misunderstood a lot of the information she was being presented with. Not all of this is her fault, though, since she only had Lilly to go on and it wasn't until recently that the translations from earlier Arabic and Latin texts have been made available.

I say all that to say that the way in which we share horary charts and their experiences is very very new and clearly leaves a lot to be desired for several reasons. Individuals sharing charts don't do them out of the desire to demonstrate and teach, but to request aid typically for free and with little gratitude. There are reasons why the querent is signified by the First house and the astrologer by the Seventh, and think this reason needs to be meditated upon by anyone who wishes to work with or experience horary in any sort of meaningful way. That isn't to discredit those who find yes/no answers meaningful and helpful (as they most certainly can be) but it is meant to give them a pause for a moment if they truly consider that to be all that horary is capable of.

Byjove,

To you, I would say if you are willing to at least take some responsibility for your question it can likely be salvaged to some extent, but I still think it best to approach another astrologer who can help you with it, or to at least ask the question to. I say this due to my own personal and professional experiences with horary over nearly the last decade (wooo can't believe it's been that long). It doesn't need to be a professional horary astrologer that you ask (though that would be the best option), but it can be another individual who can understand your question and make a chart for it.

So, with all of that out of the way and before I get further carried away, let's discuss some of the points you bring up in relation to your once-forsaken chart.

Querent: Besides the querent ruler the Sun being in it's ruling sign, it also conjuncts the ASC and is also being separated by the other main significator,

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Based on your own opinion, what is this placement saying about you? Do you feel it is descriptive of your attitude or reality right now?

Also, what sort of feeling do you get about someone who is signified by Saturn in Scorpio in the Fourth?

Take a moment to reflect on these placements and see what you can come up with based on what you know about planetary nature and the nature of the signs.

General significator Moon is separating from both the Sun and the ascendant. It's approaching a wide square with Saturn, the 7th ruler, placed in the 4th of Scorpio.

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What is this called and why could it be considered important? Also, what is special about the planetary relationship to the signs this is occurring in? Furthermore, how does the Moon as ruler of the Twelfth influence this?

guys/gals

i cannot tell you how correct Kai is on stating "(particularly on a forum that suffers from a lack of admin-power and a lack of understanding of horary in general) and how it was shared in the past. Our horary examples in literature (classical and modern) are handed down from the astrologer who interpreted it, typically being approached by a client themselves and working through it with them to arrive at an answer or some advice on how to change it."

we def had more ppl who knew and read trad. horary.

We all break rules. I had done it . I was testing on my own skin what works and what doesn't ... usually 1st chart tells the whole story but I am not objective and I do not want to test out on other people breaking the rules and such. You can rerun a chart only if something changes but that change is usually indicated in an original chart.

Best regards,
T

OK I guess the best option is to use the chart.

Potentially, we could get side-tracked in at least three directions; the original technical question, beginners guide and interpretation of the question itself. For me, the technical part is solved at least. I would be delighted to learn with a little help. I find that far more useful than guides at times. For the interpretation, I've posted in relationship-horary.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=567297#post567297

As for learning, does one adapt a natal view into a situational view? I really don't know. I know little about this, but I felt slightly useless in interpreting further in the past as mitigating circumstances seemed to appear out of nowhere, reversing outcomes I humbly thought might be good (to bad) or bad (to good).

In the thread I've created above in the relationship section, I've dropped the defeatism and added more interpretation!

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

So, with all of that out of the way and before I get further carried away, let's discuss some of the points you bring up in relation to your once-forsaken chart.

Based on your own opinion, what is this placement saying about you? Do you feel it is descriptive of your attitude or reality right now?

Also, what sort of feeling do you get about someone who is signified by Saturn in Scorpio in the Fourth?

Take a moment to reflect on these placements and see what you can come up with based on what you know about planetary nature and the nature of the signs.

What is this called and why could it be considered important? Also, what is special about the planetary relationship to the signs this is occurring in? Furthermore, how does the Moon as ruler of the Twelfth influence this?

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I don't really think splitting it into a new thread is very necessary. Carrying on multiple conversations in the same thread is hardly a rare occurrence. That being said, I have no intention of following this conversation to a new thread when the information and guidance I've offered have been ignored in this one. Though, I will give it one more shot.

As for learning, does one adapt a natal view into a situational view? I really don't know. I know little about this, but I felt slightly useless in interpreting further in the past as mitigating circumstances seemed to appear out of nowhere, reversing outcomes I humbly thought might be good (to bad) or bad (to good).

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I don't quite understand what it is you're asking. Is it "do we read horary charts like natal charts?" in which case the answer is; yes, of course. The idea that different charts are to be read differently is a very modern one that began with the advent of psychological astrology. Natal astrology does have a couple of more steps than horary astrology does since it's biggest focus is on prediction of events through time lords (at least classically), but the beginning step of identifying and predicting general trends is done the same way as horary.

Hi Kai, thanks for your feedback. I think we may have crossed wires there, I was trying to communicate that I didn't know how to answer your question, which is how I came to ask about starting. But rest assured, I didn't ignore it.

I have read a bit more in the past few days and I'd like to take another shot at it.

"Based on your own opinion, what is this placement saying about you? Do you feel it is descriptive of your attitude or reality right now?"

The Sun and the Moon in the same sign, both significators for the querent, I wonder does it mean that I'm decisive, I know what I want from this situation? But, Sun in Leo, Moon also, might it mean some of my desires are selfish? I really don't know what to make of the Sun approaching the ascendent, the sign it rules, also from the 12th. Neither the Moon past the ascendent.

"Also, what sort of feeling do you get about someone who is signified by Saturn in Scorpio in the Fourth?"

Well, I think the person has a tiny chip on their shoulder and also through hard times learned considerable self-reliance. It's like he needs warming up. In my eyes, he certainly appears a bit secretive. He never seems to put all of his cards on the table. The thing is, his conduct and speech otherwise feels sincere. The fourth house, can that mean family matters? He tells me he wants to stay close to his mom for the coming months while she is sick. If that is all true and he is not hiding anything else, then I think it's appropriate that his significator is in the 4th house of family.

"Take a moment to reflect on these placements and see what you can come up with based on what you know about planetary nature and the nature of the signs."

"General significator Moon is separating from both the Sun and the ascendant. It's approaching a wide square with Saturn, the 7th ruler, placed in the 4th of Scorpio.
What is this called and why could it be considered important? Also, what is special about the planetary relationship to the signs this is occurring in? Furthermore, how does the Moon as ruler of the Twelfth influence this?"
So, I think having the Moon, my co-significator aspect the quesited is good, the square just means obstacles, perhaps? Fixed signs and cardinal houses, I think that's months we're talking about?

The signs that they're occuring in, well, the planetary hour ruler is the Sun and it is in it's own sign. It's conjunct the ascendent from the 12th. The Sun is strong (I think). Saturn in Scorpio has no dignity, though it's dispositor is Mars, which is at 0 degrees of the sign, so perhaps it's no so weak. I wonder is 0 degrees symbolic?

Running just with the hope and question that we may be together again, the Sun being in the place of Saturns detriment and Saturn in the place of the Moons detriment, either we're not good for each other or we've both apparently lost interest? But, if I've read it correctly, the co-significator, Moon only aspects the quesited as it continues through Leo. It applies to square Saturn. So the Moon only shows one obstacle to overcome?

Another technical question - horary questions need to be time-specific, I think? Is this question too general? Do I need to say "in the next few months"?

byjove said:

The fourth house, can that mean family matters? He tells me he wants to stay close to his mom for the coming months while she is sick. If that is all true and he is not hiding anything else, then I think it's appropriate that his significator is in the 4th house of family.

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Exactly. This was my thought on this too.

Another thing to consider is that Saturn in Scorpio seems like someone who is awfully stuck, doesn't it? I think the Fourth house perfectly mirrors his concern and focus on his parent's health.

The Sun and the Moon in the same sign, both significators for the querent, I wonder does it mean that I'm decisive, I know what I want from this situation? But, Sun in Leo, Moon also, might it mean some of my desires are selfish?

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I like your self-awareness here.

It's important to distinguish that the Moon is not a co-ruler, but a co-significator. She signifies your state of mind and your focus, but after that shows the development of the situation, so don't try to focus on her showing "you" so much.

Running just with the hope and question that we may be together again, the Sun being in the place of Saturns detriment and Saturn in the place of the Moons detriment, either we're not good for each other or we've both apparently lost interest?

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Faster planets indicate action or the party that seeks to move, and the slower planet shows the individual who has to react to it and what their reaction is. This is determined by the planet's nature, it's dignity, the aspect that's occurring, and any reception that occurs through that aspect. There is some rejection occurring here, and it's interesting that both the Sun and Moon are applying to Saturn from his place of detriment. The Moon seeks to translate the light between the Sun and Saturn, but Saturn says no. Then the Sun attempts to contact Saturn himself, but this too fails.

The warning here seems to be to hold back on the pushiness. Be aware of the malefics in the chart.

Another thing to consider is that Saturn in Scorpio seems like someone who is awfully stuck, doesn't it? I think the Fourth house perfectly mirrors his concern and focus on his parent's health.

How do you mean stuck? I'm glad the family focus seems right on track.

There is some rejection occurring here, and it's interesting that both the Sun and Moon are applying to Saturn from his place of detriment. The Moon seeks to translate the light between the Sun and Saturn, but Saturn says no. Then the Sun attempts to contact Saturn himself, but this too fails.

The warning here seems to be to hold back on the pushiness. Be aware of the malefics in the chart.

I have an update on this. We spoke a lot this week. Some things are clear. Firstly, he made it abundantly clear that he's still crazy about me too and if distance wasn't an issue, we'd be together. His mom is still not getting answers on the source of her pain. So he says at this rate he won't leave his home country this year. He told me before and mentioned again that he became very dissatisfied with his life there and he hates his job. So he feels stuck. He sounded quite sad and I've never heard him worried or detached. He said he's been disconnected from everyone a bit lately. I certainly did feel rejected at times recently when I didn't know what he was feeling. But it seems he might be battling sadness/a touch melancholy. It warmed me greatly to speak on clear terms and know he feels the same.

With all of this said, I feel a little bit back at square one. It's hard to say if we'll get together again.

byjove said:

How do you mean stuck?

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So he says at this rate he won't leave his home country this year. He told me before and mentioned again that he became very dissatisfied with his life there and he hates his job. So he feels stuck. He sounded quite sad and I've never heard him worried or detached. He said he's been disconnected from everyone a bit lately.

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I think you figured it out.

I have an update on this.

I'm confused by his real intentions because, he just told me that he got promoted in his job in his home country, and now that I think about it, he mentioned tiny things about that at the start. He says he is now studying for an MBA. You don't do that if you're moving country. He absolutely insists it wasn't a holiday romance. But I know that he applied for jobs here too. Job applications here, job promotion at home, I'm not sure he was sure himself about his plans and maybe I got caught in that.

I wouldn't have let my heart get involved but he seemed quite serious about all of it initially and I trusted him.

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

Exactly. This was my thought on this too.

Another thing to consider is that Saturn in Scorpio seems like someone who is awfully stuck, doesn't it? I think the Fourth house perfectly mirrors his concern and focus on his parent's health.



I like your self-awareness here.

It's important to distinguish that the Moon is not a co-ruler, but a co-significator. She signifies your state of mind and your focus, but after that shows the development of the situation, so don't try to focus on her showing "you" so much.



Faster planets indicate action or the party that seeks to move, and the slower planet shows the individual who has to react to it and what their reaction is. This is determined by the planet's nature, it's dignity, the aspect that's occurring, and any reception that occurs through that aspect. There is some rejection occurring here, and it's interesting that both the Sun and Moon are applying to Saturn from his place of detriment. The Moon seeks to translate the light between the Sun and Saturn, but Saturn says no. Then the Sun attempts to contact Saturn himself, but this too fails.

The warning here seems to be to hold back on the pushiness. Be aware of the malefics in the chart.

Click to expand...

In terms of trying to understand whether this person has been telling the truth, two months after this horary was cast, the direction here seems to be (if I understood):

1) He is genuinely concerned about his mother's health, he is placed in the 4th house of family
2) The Sun and the Moon show me (both planets, Sun strong, therefore pushy) trying hard to connect with him - Saturn. Saturn seems to be rejecting both of these.

If we can mention any elements about 'changed circumstances' he tells me that his mom is already doing much better ahead of getting surgery in November. But now I sense significant doubt about his general intentions to come back, even if all is good with his mom. He keeps pushing back the dates. Now it's 'possibly after April'. This comes 2 weeks after he poured words of love and affection, talking about a future together and wanting to be a good husband for me in the future. I don't think he's telling the truth about everything. All of my friends now doubt him and I feel humiliated for falling head over heels. I think one problem I had trying to understand him until now is that I was trying to establish if he was 'honest' or 'dishonest'. I think he's been both.

byjove,

It may be time to reflect on the purpose of the question. I don't know if the intention behind it was really there or not, but the title of the chart is "Will we be in a relationship again", so it seems like this chart should be used more for telling the future of the relationship and its likelihood of success. Initially, you were much more focused on whether or not the chart validated his circumstances as a litmus test for his honesty. That is a legitimate concern, but I think we can agree that his circumstances are legitimate, and it's time to move past that initial phase and look more into the future.

That all being said, what do you make of this chart in that light? What things would there need to be in order for this relationship to be successful, and what does the chart suggest about the existence of those things?

Thank you for the guidance. As I mentioned before, I'm not adept at horary but I'm very willing to learn.

I wanted to take some time to ponder this too, not to rush into it.

So the case is established that he has family responsibilities. That suggests a significant deal of truthfulness, at least about that.

As for this relationship, I know these things don't always have defined boundaries, but this one may not be in existence at all now. When he said things looked not so fortunate for his mom he may not return at all. So I tried to move on. When he offered vague timelines and sentiments then disappeared, I told him that I could only take his committments seriously when he was living in the same country. So do I still want things to work out? Absolutely. I want him more than anyone else. If two weeks ago he was serious about us living together and mentioning words like marriage, he feels the same. Perhaps.

What do I need? Better communication from him, more information, not to de-prioritize me in lieu of his career ambitions. To stop moving back and forward playing with my heart and mind.

What does the chart say about the existence of those things? All that I can see is his family responsibilities and that I appear as too eager or pushy. Beyond that, I've no idea. Is it acceptable to look at the rest of the planets for clues or is the bulk of the info. in the 1st and 7th connections?