Will I marry him?

I cast an horary chart for better clarification since I have had luck on here with horary in the past.

I am Saturn in Scorpio in the 10th. My co-significator would be Venus in Sag in the 11th.

His significator would be Moon in Pisces in the 2nd. His co-significator (i believe?) would be Sun in Libra in the 9th (in Fall).

I am seriously baffled by how tight the trine is. If i would have gotten to cast the chart on astro ONE MINUTE EARLIER (i assume it took me between 30 seconds and a minute to get to the page) it would have been an EXACT trine between the rulers of the 1st and the 7th. But since it is separating afterall, does that mean no?

It is the time you understood what you were asking, and William F. Lilly allowed 6 minutes separation from the lord of the matter; applying and less than a degree it would be a partile aspect.

This might help:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7778

post # 11 by Johannes:

William Lilly, CA, beginning p. 166:

"Of the time of receiving any Q U E S T I O N.

It hath been disputed largely amongst the Arabians, who
were excellent in the resolution of Horary Questions, what
time the Astrologer should take for the ground of his Question,
whether that time when the Querent first comes into ones
House or Closet, or first salutes the Artist, whether that is to be
admitted for the most proper time or erecting a Figure, and
giving Judgement thereupon.
......SNIP......
...........wherein himselfe is really concerned, I say he may with great reason accept of that hour for the true time of erecting his Scheame of Heaven, and he may (if not partiall) as well judge of that Figure erected by himselfe, as of any other; but herein I advised him to lay aside all love and partiality unto his owne Cause."

Click to expand...

That thread is a MUST READ for most horary artists!

Have you yet applied Lilly's POINT COUNT found on page 115 of CA?

For it's coming in fast!

How come you omitted Fortuna?
.

Hey, thanks! I have a very basic learning of horary and am still learning. I have never heard that 6 minutes for separation. I also didn't know to include Fortuna. I apologize.. I will look at your link. Thanks again!

Since its just a horary and not your birth chart is there any reason why you can't produce the birth data(place, time, date) so that those of us who do this kind of work with our own software can look at it?

ok i just wasn't sure about posting my location but i can edit it out after
edit

yyyyyyyy said:

ok i just wasn't sure about posting my location but i can edit it out after

++++++++++++++

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OK Got it. You can delelte it now if you wish.

1. The ruler of the ASC is exactly in aspect to the ruler of the house of the question. So we can answer the question.

2. Moon is between malefics: which suggests that you are under heavy pressure to marry him; that you may get to a yes but there is lots of stuff to address first, or that something that happened in the past is an immediate block to an immediate yes on your part

3. Moon is in a succedent house suggesting that more time and more money will be needed to bring to a successful yes.

4. Moon is in Pisces suggesting that lots of adjustments have to be brought forward to complete a yes.

5. Moon will make a bunch of aspects before leaving the sign, so lots of discussion will take place before a decision is made.

6. Moon's final aspect is an inconjunct, which means that something you are not aware of may come back to interfere with a yes, and that getting to a yes is likely to cost more than you think it will right now.

7. Moon is in difficult aspect to a "D" arabic part, suggesting a no;

8. There are some less obvious factors which show that you might be able to work through all this and reach a yes.
----

All in all, it looks like you could get to a yes here, but it will require a lot of stuff to take place, and you will have to get a lot of assurances that you can believe. Both of you need to work hard at this.

A look at the synastry of both of your charts could help to see where some of the biggest troubles are.

thank you soo much! when you said "moon is between malefics so that suggests you" etc you are saying that for him right? since i'm saturn

yyyyyyyy stated:

... I have never heard that 6 minutes for separation.....

Click to expand...

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5245&sid=a004ef001d350c25f1ce114991b79416

This should enlighten you and others who are beginning to become awake and study!

Zaruthu states:

[QUOTE]Since its just a horary and not your birth chart is there any reason why you can't produce the birth data(place, time, date) so that those of us who do this kind of work with our own software can look at it? [/QUOTE]

RIGHT ON! So many here haven't figured out that one can use a very near latitude and minutes and near the same degree yet 15, 30, 45, 60, 75 degrees LONGITUDE different and arrive at very close to the same horoscope with only minutes different in the map as they use another location, town, in order to be covert or discrete about their whereabouts!

There are a few on this forum and others who are actually doing this in case therestofyou haven't caught on!

Zarathu:

1. The ruler of the ASC is exactly in aspect to the ruler of the house of the question. So we can answer the question.

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Although Lilly doesn't list even one late asc. horary in CA, Lilly did say '...all horaries are answerable...but some should not be answered as we should defer judgment..'.

Zarathu:

6. Moon's final aspect is an inconjunct, which means that something you are not aware of may come back to interfere with a yes, and that getting to a yes is likely to cost more than you think it will right now.

Click to expand...

I have my own hypothetical concepts in horary such as this, yet until I'm in league with those like Deborah Houlding, Dorothy J. Kovach, Sue Ward, John Frawley, etc., I'm best to not show those guns til I have somewhat near their standing because others have done thought the same I'm sure and they may have latter been proved wrong! And I am totally aware that the Modernes have adopted this, but it doesn't fit in Traditionalism even if some got confused when Lilly listed Yohannes Kepler's minor aspects and mentioned a few in his 6th house matters. Latter after publishing CA Lilly speaks up against the usage of minor aspects in horary!

Lilly:
“…we seldom use more aspects than the conjunction, sextile, square, trine, opposition: to these of late one Kepler, a learned man, has added some new ones… I only acquaint you with these, that finding them any where you may apprehend their meaning.”

http://magnumopusastrology.com/the-aspects-in-classical-and-traditional-astrology

When we first meet the minor aspects in Christian Astrology, it is in the section dealing with how to read the annually published ephemerides in his popular almanac Merlini Anglici:

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..........SNIP......
Lilly is telling the truth here. We have already seen that in the entire horary portion of Christian Astrology he factors in only one minor aspect, the semisextile. None of the “new ones” put in an appearance.

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Zarathu, NO I'm not picking on, nor making fun of anyone, but isn't it futile to honestly keep believing that 'ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME!'

a)So If I go north from Peking I'll arrive in Rome.
b)If I head south from Miami it will eventually put me in Rome!
c) If I head due east of Athens I'll arrive in Rome!

I'm Not saying I agree with everything the Ancients wrote, or Lilly, or Houlding, but they have read and practiced horary more than I and should I not bow to their wisdom yet question things?

It will never hurt any of us to consider Deb Houlding's generous course from a Master artist who like Lilly has integrity and generosity to share her wisdom!

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html

And here is a course all should delve into:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary_intro.html
.

I don't see the Moon as being "between malefics" since that would indicate that the Moon separates from one and immediately joins to the other.

All of the indications are that yes, you will marry. That tight trine? Means something. As does Jupiter exalted in the 7th, and the MC changing signs going from a cardinal sign to a fixed sign. Moon is further translating light from Saturn to Jupiter (which is the Moon's next aspect by trine...)

There is no difficulty here. The chart is a clear yes. Even Mars agrees.

Clinton,

Picking on me is actually called picking on Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson. I don't have anything original to add when it comes to horary, nor have I organized it in any special way like I have with other astrology.

100% of my horary study comes directly from the 7 volumes of IVY. And her best writing on Horary, IMO, is not in SIMPLIFIED HORARY ASTROLOGY.

So... I really don't pretend to feel anything when you make comments on what I say. Its too bad, though, that IVY, who died in 1992, is not here to defend herself. However, IVY NEVER EVER EVER wrote something that she herself had not researched and practiced over and over and over again to find its accuracy. So I have yet to find anything where what she said was incorrect.

Z

yyyyyyyy said:

thank you soo much! when you said "moon is between malefics so that suggests you" etc you are saying that for him right? since i'm saturn

Click to expand...

I'm saying that in the chart of your question, the MOON is between malefics and that means what I suggested that it could mean for the answer to your question, which "NO".

I know nothing about HIM, other than from the question itself. However, like I said, since most of the answer was "NO", except for you having to work hard to get to a yes, it would be interesting to have the data(you are free to PM it to me so that no privacy is lost) to see where the most difficult parts of your potential partnership might be. That would not be horary, and I would post it in the relationship area, not this horary area.

The easiest way to look at a horary question is to look at the impact of the Moon on the question. If its not visible with the moon then I can get more complicated, but only very very rarely have I had to get out from under just looking at the MOON, and stuff connect to it.

Zarathu said:

. Moon is between malefics: which suggests that you are under heavy pressure to marry him; that you may get to a yes but there is lots of stuff to address first, or that something that happened in the past is an immediate block to an immediate yes on your part

Click to expand...

And YYYYYYYYYY replied:

...........you said "moon is between malefics so that suggests you" etc you are saying that for him right? since i'm Saturn...

Click to expand...

Where Tsmall correctly confirmed:

I don't see the Moon as being "between malefics" since that would indicate that the Moon separates from one and immediately joins to the other.

Click to expand...

Thanks Tsmall, I missed that initially and before you posted I was digging thru the web on this misconception!

Now I had this misconception years ago that Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto were malifics, but they are OUTERS, and they are not any way a part of traditional horary prior to 1700; and Frawley is seen by some as a TRAD-RENEGADE as he uses them though Not as house rulers or saspects but for cjts to points!

Here why we have this deliema!

MODERNE concept:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malefic_planet

In astrology, a malefic planet, or simply malefic, is traditionally thought to bring bad luck and misfortune. Mars is considered the lesser malefic, while Saturn is the greater malefic. In modern astrology Uranus, Pluto and for some Ceres are also considered malefic.
Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are generally considered malefic when in hard aspect to a personal planet. Easy/soft aspects to these however can be rewarding, exciting, artistic/musical, and insightful

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TRADITIONAL concept:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/malefics.html

Mars= lesser Malefic

Saturn= greater Malefic

The following is a website of the Modernes, NOTe even they DO NOT call the OUTERS Malefics!

http://mithras93.tripod.com/lessons/lesson3/lesson3.html

yyyyyyyyyy better read Lilly and those before him because as you can see there is obvious error in that some of these newly derived concepts get embarrassing for all of us!

Like I said, years ago in my infant horary and astrology phases I too would have misread Luna between Uranus and Neptune as caught between malefics...but that is just Modernism and if others get out their picks and shovels and do a lot of excavation they will discover there were reasons Olivia Barclay pioneered a revival for getting back to basics, and those basics are Traditional!
.

This is Forum member Cancer7's horoscope, in her natal, her Moon by traditional standards is truly besieged, between the lesser and greater malefics.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/album.php?albumid=1061&pictureid=5303

Zarathu:

Clinton,

Picking on me is actually called picking on Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson. I don't have anything original to add when it comes to horary, nor have I organized it in any special way like I have with other astrology.

100% of my horary study comes directly from the 7 volumes of IVY. And her best writing on Horary, IMO, is not in SIMPLIFIED HORARY ASTROLOGY.

Click to expand...

Zarathu, just as your mentors have made errors so have mine, and yours are mine too!

IE. http://www.skyscript.co.uk/lilly_houses.html

9th house:

Lilly in CA: [QUOTE].... I have oft observed when the Dragon's Tail, or Mars or Saturn have been unfortunately placed in this house; the Querent hath either been little better than an atheist or a desperate sectarist:....[/QUOTE]

I have NEVER seen any of those I work with who had a natal Saturn in the 9th to in any way echoe this!

I have several nativities with Mars in the 9th or lord of whom will get up on the soap box and preach and have morality issues contrary to the Jewish documents, Bible or Queran but they are devoutly Mono-theists!

So See Lilly made misjudgments too, or he told the truth of what he saw and witnessed in less than one degree(< 72 years) of the Age of Pisces he was allotted!

IE. #2 The Beautiful spirit Barbara Watters wrote and convinced many that one CAN NOT read a horary with early or late asc.s and crisomed it STRICTURES AGAINST JUDGMENT; others latter fell into the same trap and we will meet them aboard the forums my astro siblings!

It's a shame a certain astrologer hasn't conquered certain aspects that gave him pain, who was enlightening us about a point that Guido Bonatus may have been mistranslated by Coley and given to Lilly.

For all of us are struggling to get our horary RIGHT! I HOPE!

See Zarathu, there is something soon I wish to show on Forum that Lilly who before he became a great astrologer wanted to become one of the clergy(9th), but his 9th house matters show he MAY NOT have read or studied the KJV(ENGLISH) that may have not been easily available before he wrote CA in 1647 or revised it in 1659!

Zarathu:

I'm saying that in the chart of your question, the MOON is between malefics and that means what I suggested that it could mean for the answer to your question, which "NO".

Click to expand...

The only thing I can add is I know you love Olivia Barclay, why did she pioneer TRADITIONALSM and stand on it with her thick skin as in:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65199&page=2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivia_Barclay


Quote:
In 1980, Barclay obtained an original copy of Lilly's Christian Astrology, and later she arranged to have it re-printed as a facsimile edition in 1985. This dissemination of Christian Astrology helped to spur a revival of interest in traditional astrology in the late 20th-century.[2] Her work stimulated the unearthing of techniques that had been lost in various cultural transitions since the Enlightenment and encouraged wider researches into the astrological traditions of the Babylonians, Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, Arabs, Western medieval and Renaissance practitioners.

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It's alright Tsmall knows, how steadfast or stubborn I can be but I'm still learning as well. bless her forgiving soul!
.

Clinton,

You're not getting it. I'm not interested in arguing with you about who is best or who is wrong.

Doing this in the middle of the OP's thread is JUST NOT NICE.

SO START YOUR OWN ARGUMENT THREAD!

Except I won't be there. I don't really care if you think Ivy or Olivia is wrong and where. I don't have enough Virgo in my chart to be this anal.

Moving on....

I must say, I don't see how the Moon is "between malefics" here. Saturn is a significator, not a malefic in this chart. The last aspect the Moon made was with Venus, not Mars.

Even though the Moon is a minute or so past the perfection of its trine with Saturn, it is still in the same degree as Saturn so, traditionally, the Moon is still in a partile trine with Saturn.

Too, Jupiter is in the 7th and this exalted benefic brings further testimony of a yes answer, particularly as there is a mutual exchange between the Moon and Jupiter.

With reference to the previous square that the Moon made with Venus, it is interesting that Venus is equal almuten of the ascendant, having triplicity and face, so I wonder if this square signified an argument or disagreement in the recent past...?

Zarathu has stated:

You're not getting it. I'm not interested in arguing with you about who is best or who is wrong.

Doing this in the middle of the OP's thread is JUST NOT NICE.

Click to expand...

Zarathu, I don't know about every astrologer's horoscope, we are all different and as we know mutable and cadent positions aren't that strong and enduring.

I don't think the querant who is a beginner wants bad advice or does she want advice that doesn't pan out.

If you read my words and links you know I'm Not degrading any astrologer for their sincerity, just stating 'the proof is in the pudding'; note how many have gave opinions that were in terrible error on various threads this forum and other forums!

I mean

I'm for quality horary and sometimes that truly means cross examining the Ancients where a few I'm told by one I have mentioned on this thread who stated that some Ancients used the 4th and 7th in predicting death.

I don't want to become this type of astrologer who refuses to grow and investigate and come into challenging oppinions and does this symbolicly, and I'm not saying anyone on here has exemplifies this but some on other threads seem to:



My point is if it works don't fix it, but if one finds a tool that is better work with it and put it to the test!

I want to become like these well know astrologers as we all should strive to be:




YYYYYYYYYY tell us more of what you see within your horary and please continue to ask questions and pry into the universe of the scholars who have gone before us, use their knowledge and become a great astrologer!


Harold stated and I'm thankful:

I must say, I don't see how the Moon is "between malefics" here. Saturn is a significator, not a malefic in this chart. The last aspect the Moon made was with Venus, not Mars.

Even though the Moon is a minute or so past the perfection of its trine with Saturn, it is still in the same degree as Saturn so, traditionally, the Moon is still in a partile trine with Saturn.

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Yes within a degree and Not more than 6 minutes according to Lilly's ways!
.
.

Why was I referenced in this thread, YIKES?!?!?

Clinton Soule said:

This is Forum member Cancer7's horoscope, in her natal, her Moon by traditional standards is truly besieged, between the lesser and greater malefics.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/album.php?albumid=1061&pictureid=5303

Zarathu:



Zarathu, just as your mentors have made errors so have mine, and yours are mine too!

IE. http://www.skyscript.co.uk/lilly_houses.html

9th house:

Lilly in CA: [QUOTE].... I have oft observed when the Dragon's Tail, or Mars or Saturn have been unfortunately placed in this house; the Querent hath either been little better than an atheist or a desperate sectarist:....

Click to expand...

I have NEVER seen any of those I work with who had a natal Saturn in the 9th to in any way echoe this!

I have several nativities with Mars in the 9th or lord of whom will get up on the soap box and preach and have morality issues contrary to the Jewish documents, Bible or Queran but they are devoutly Mono-theists!

So See Lilly made misjudgments too, or he told the truth of what he saw and witnessed in less than one degree(< 72 years) of the Age of Pisces he was allotted!

IE. #2 The Beautiful spirit Barbara Watters wrote and convinced many that one CAN NOT read a horary with early or late asc.s and crisomed it STRICTURES AGAINST JUDGMENT; others latter fell into the same trap and we will meet them aboard the forums my astro siblings!

It's a shame a certain astrologer hasn't conquered certain aspects that gave him pain, who was enlightening us about a point that Guido Bonatus may have been mistranslated by Coley and given to Lilly.

For all of us are struggling to get our horary RIGHT! I HOPE!

See Zarathu, there is something soon I wish to show on Forum that Lilly who before he became a great astrologer wanted to become one of the clergy(9th), but his 9th house matters show he MAY NOT have read or studied the KJV(ENGLISH) that may have not been easily available before he wrote CA in 1647 or revised it in 1659!

Zarathu:



The only thing I can add is I know you love Olivia Barclay, why did she pioneer TRADITIONALSM and stand on it with her thick skin as in:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65199&page=2



It's alright Tsmall knows, how steadfast or stubborn I can be but I'm still learning as well. bless her forgiving soul!
.[/QUOTE]

I agree. You should not have had your chart referenced without your permission. If you are unhappy with this, please click the "!" mark in the upper right and complain to moderation.

can we please get back to the topic?

Clinton - do you think this horary is a yes or a no. if you don't want to answer, i understand. but i get excited every time i get an email on this thread and it just seems to be seriously derailed.

i understand people practice horary differently - i came here because this is my go-to website for horary help because everyone is so knowledgable on here. please, let us get back to the subject or take this conversation somewhere else.

i appreciate the links but if it was that easy for me to just read and read about horary online i would be a lot further off by now. i have ADHD and learn by practice, experience, and conversation with astrologers - not by strictly reading web pages. It's how i learned about natal astrology.