A Discussion Thread About Racism in America

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
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Soldiers under Lee’s command
at the Battle of the Crater in 1864
massacred black Union soldiers who tried to surrender.
Then
in a spectacle hatched by Lee’s senior corps commander, A. P. Hill
the Confederates paraded the Union survivors
through the streets of Petersburg
to the slurs and jeers of the southern crowd.

Lee never discouraged such behavior :smile:

As the historian Richard Slotkin wrote
in No Quarter: The Battle of the Crater
“...his silence was permissive....”


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JUPITERASC

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The presence of black soldiers on the field of battle

shattered every myth :smile:

that the South’s slave empire was built on: the happy docility of slaves
their intellectual inferiority, their cowardice
their inability to compete with white people.


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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
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As Pryor writes
“...fighting against brave and competent African Americans

challenged every underlying tenet of southern society.” :smile:



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JUPITERASC

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The Confederate response to this challenge
was to visit every possible atrocity
and cruelty upon black soldiers whenever possible
from enslavement to execution.

As the historian James McPherson recounts :smile:
in Battle Cry of Freedom
in October of that same year
Lee proposed an exchange of prisoners
with the Union general Ulysses S. Grant.

“....Grant agreed
on condition that black soldiers be exchanged ‘the same as white soldiers.’...”

Lee’s response was
that
“...negroes belonging to our citizens
are not considered subjects of exchange
and were not included in my proposition...”



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JUPITERASC

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Because slavery was the cause for which Lee fought :smile:
he could hardly be expected to easily concede
even at the cost of the freedom of his own men
that black people could be treated as soldiers and not things.

Grant refused the offer
telling Lee that
“...government is bound to secure to all persons received into her armies
the rights due to soldiers....”


Despite its desperate need for soldiers
the Confederacy did not relent from this position
until a few months before Lee’s surrender.


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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
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After the war, Lee did advise defeated southerners
not to rise up against the North.
Lee might have become a rebel once more
and urged the South to resume fighting
as many of his former comrades wanted him to.

But even in this task Grant, in 1866
regarded his former rival as falling short, :smile:
saying that Lee was

“...setting an example of forced acquiescence
so grudging and pernicious in its effects
as to be hardly realized....”

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JUPITERASC

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Nor did Lee’s defeat lead to an embrace of racial egalitarianism.
The war was not about slavery, Lee insisted later
but if it were about slavery
it was only out of Christian devotion :smile:
that white southerners fought to keep black people enslaved.





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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
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Lee told a New York Herald reporter
in the midst of arguing in favor of
somehow removing black people from the South

“...disposed of...” in his words
“...that unless some humane course is adopted
based on wisdom and Christian principles you do a gross wrong

and injustice to the whole negro race in setting them free :smile:
And it is only this consideration
that has led the wisdom, intelligence and Christianity of the South
to support and defend the institution up to this time....”
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david starling

Well-known member
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Every state that seceded
mentioned slavery as the cause in their declarations of secession.
Lee’s beloved Virginia was no different :smile:
accusing the federal government of “perverting” its powers
“not only to the injury of the people of Virginia
but to the oppression of the Southern Slaveholding States.”
[Quote/].


The Electoral College was designed to preserve Slavery by making it difficult to elect sn Anti-Slavery President.
 

JUPITERASC

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Lee had beaten
or ordered his own slaves to be beaten

for the crime of wanting to be free :smile:

he fought for the preservation of slavery
his army kidnapped free black people at gunpoint
and made them unfree


but all of this, he insisted
had occurred only because of
the great Christian love the South held for black Americans :smile:

Here we truly understand
Frederick Douglass’s admonition that
“...between the Christianity of this land
and the Christianity of Christ
I recognize the widest possible difference....”

Privately, according to the correspondence
collected by his own family
Lee counseled others to hire white labor
instead of the freedmen
observing
“...that wherever you find the negro
everything is going down around him
and wherever you find a white man
you see everything around him improving....”
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
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In another letter, Lee wrote
“...You will never prosper with blacks
and it is abhorrent to a reflecting mind
to be supporting and cherishing
those who are plotting and working for your injury
and all of whose sympathies and associations
are antagonistic to yours.
I wish them no evil in the world :smile:
on the contrary, will do them every good in my power
and know that they are misled
by those to whom they have given their confidence
but our material, social, and political interests
are naturally with the whites....”
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
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Publicly, Lee argued against the enfranchisement of black Americans :smile:

and raged against Republican efforts to enforce racial equality in the South.



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JUPITERASC

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Lee told Congress
that black people lacked the intellectual capacity of white people :smile:
and “...could not vote intelligently...”
and that granting them suffrage
would “...excite unfriendly feelings between the two races...”

Lee explained that
“...the negroes have neither the intelligence
nor the other qualifications which are necessary
to make them safe depositories of political power....”

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Inquisag

Well-known member
Selling humans and owning humans has no place in a civilized society. Any person or group doing either activity is on the outskirts of civilization. United States took a step towards civilization when it ended slavery, a half step back when it created Jim Crow laws, and another half step back when it promoted racism. A lot more can be done to rid the country of racism. This country cannot enter the boundaries of becoming a true civilization until racism has been eradicated.

I have held off completing a screenplay I was writing about a woman from another planet who decides to live on earth because I have not been able to come up with a reason why beings from another planet would want to return to this planet after visiting here once. If I visited here from an evolved civilization, I would never return.

Our continual obsession over the 1% difference between what we have in common as humans is abysmal. I try everyday to rid myself of unconscious ideas and thoughts I have about people who don't look like me. I wish I had learned how to just see personalities from the beginning. I want to be one of the people who push my country towards civilization.
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
You are saying their work ethic is better than other ethnicities....
That is super racist.
The only person trying to make a perfectly normal statement racist is you.

To call someone better based on their attitude towards work has nothing to do with racism. I have observed this for years and am expressing my opinion of what I have experienced first hand, and that decently. I have every right to do so.

That is one of the main reasons, besides being cheap labour and being brilliant in the sciences (esp. medicine and IT), that they are hired. And so then all their employers and the nations that take them on and hire them are racist. :rolleyes:

Your way of thinking and wavelength are entirely different than mine. You revel in picking one sentence out of context, misconstruing it, adding your own ammunition, and then hounding people using intimidation tactics post after post and even thread after thread - be it here or the Horary board.

It is a waste of time trying to have a discussion with you because clearly and as proven on multiple threads, the motive is not to have a decent, meaningful discussion, but just to attack people and vilify what they express. Such people are best ignored and their posts best disregarded, which is what I am going to do going fwd.
 

leomoon

Well-known member
*


The separation of slave families
was one of the most unfathomably devastating aspects of slavery
and Pryor wrote :smile:
that Lee’s slaves regarded him as “...the worst man I ever see...”
The trauma of rupturing families lasted lifetimes for the enslaved
it was
a kind of murder.”
After the war, thousands of the emancipated searched desperately
for kin lost to the market for human flesh, fruitlessly for most.
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After reading these few historian's words, I prefer "the Killer Angelsl" by Michael Shaara...even though its based on fiction & some diary notes. His religious devotion, his love of family for one. I read it through and through in Egypt. Loved this book, the author's creative writing.


"With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have therefore, resigned my commission in the Army"
(From a letter - Robert E. Lee)





Trying to understand Lee, might help by trying to understand his Mars in Virgo exact 120 degree trine to his Jupiter. IF I had the time in life it would take, I'd start there.
 

leomoon

Well-known member
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Lee told Congress
that black people lacked the intellectual capacity of white people :smile:
and “...could not vote intelligently...”
and that granting them suffrage
would “...excite unfriendly feelings between the two races...”

Lee explained that
“...the negroes have neither the intelligence
nor the other qualifications which are necessary
to make them safe depositories of political power....”

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Thomas Jefferson said the same thing to his good friend, a French aristocrat (of course) with whom he exchanged letters often about the new country and his ideas.


I wrote a Kindle book which includes this type of hypocrisy I saw in Jefferson at every turn or so it seemed. Eventually, I took to finding it in his natal chart. ["Edgar Cayce on Past Lives:" by D.M.Hoover] The chapter on Thomas Jefferson included info on Banneker.



The letters he wrote had to do with Benjamin Banneker a truly remarkable man who had lived in the little town of"Oella" and was befriended by his 2 neighbors, brothers who had started the local Grain mill in nearby Ellicott City (named for the Ellicott brothers) Banneker (also spelled Baneker) was really more of a quiet self-contained type of person, although he took readily to the Elicott Brothers friendship which became lifelong.


Eventually, they loaned him books and various materials they had from their interest in Quaker religion which was Banneker's growing up - and together, they all attended a Mennonite Church , taking him with them to their meetings in the church. Banneker was very intelligent, needless to say (see Wiki): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Banneker


I think Harriet Beecher Stowe, her brother and family members as well as many others who helped create the Underground RR up north were also Mennonites. The northern church helped Banneker get published (his Ephemeris)







In 1788, George Ellicott, the son of Andrew Ellicott, loaned Bannker equipment to begin a more formal study of astronomy. During the following year, Banneker sent George his work calculating a solar eclipse.[
In 1790, Banneker prepared an ephemeris for 1791, which he hoped would be placed within a published almanac. However, he was unable to find a printer that was willing to publish and distribute the work.
To make a long story short - (which is always hard for me, :unsure:) ...I will mention that as a Sun Scorpio (perhaps impelling him), Banneker did drink and because liquor is a downer too - had periods of depression he fought often.

Perhaps not helped by the letters to Jefferson, offering his services for building the new roads (from D.C. Alexandria Va to Ellicott City?) along with the Elicott Brothers who were surveyors.

Eventually, Banneker (whose work was more the surveying of the heavens which helped to lay the streets) ......


note: There is also the Railroad Baltimore & Ohio which runs through Ellicott City.


Bottom line of my post has to do with the hypocrisy of Jefferson when meeting with and introducing Banneker's unique (at that time) work he did to those who helped finance this country. First he praised him as "different" from other Negroes, and then he took it back - saying in effect the "knowledge" came from the Ellicott Brothers which simply wasn't so.



He did of course mention that Banneker was a "free negroe" and not from a slave family. His parents had land and his grandmother was from Scotland, a white woman who taught him to read.




:annoyed:
 
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CapAquaPis

Well-known member
Trump goes to his first campaign rally next week in Tulsa on Juneteenth, an African-American holiday and on the 100th anniversary of the Greenwood race riot which destroyed an affluent black neighborhood there. He's going to stir the boiling pot on recent racial tensions after the George Floyd and Breanna Taylor incidents. I never understood when our society is "PC" about proper behavior regarding the issues of race, Trump gets away with saying racially charged comments and remarks for decades including his presidency.
 

eekndyn

Well-known member
Trump goes to his first campaign rally next week in Tulsa on Juneteenth, an African-American holiday and on the 100th anniversary of the Greenwood race riot which destroyed an affluent black neighborhood there. He's going to stir the boiling pot on recent racial tensions after the George Floyd and Breanna Taylor incidents. I never understood when our society is "PC" about proper behavior regarding the issues of race, Trump gets away with saying racially charged comments and remarks for decades including his presidency.

Actually, he rescheduled his visit to the 20th. To honor Juneteenth.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Trump goes to his first campaign rally next week in Tulsa on Juneteenth, an African-American holiday and on the 100th anniversary of the Greenwood race riot which destroyed an affluent black neighborhood there. He's going to stir the boiling pot on recent racial tensions after the George Floyd and Breanna Taylor incidents. I never understood when our society is "PC" about proper behavior regarding the issues of race, Trump gets away with saying racially charged comments and remarks for decades including his presidency.

Trump caved, he's moved his rally to June 20th to obfuscate the most obvious racist symbolism. Still in Tulsa though.
 
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