Just call me "Tangled Path"

C

C Jayne

Well-known member
Click here to get my chart:

http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cjaynenatalchart2yl.png

Here I am -- struggling along with this life-plan which has challenged me for, yea these many years. And now I'm on the verge of -- well, I'm old enough I could be a grandmother.

Born: Late, with umbilical cord tied in a knot. Could have been dead, but instead, have simply spent a lifetime going in circles, always trying to "find myself, find myself."

Scorpio Asc opposes Jupiter: Compulsive risk taker. I try things that shouldn't be attempted. Also, I'm compulsively honest (in my own opinion).

I no longer tell people in my everyday life about me and astrology. They already thought I was weird, and they really think I'm weird if I let them know about me and the stars! I never thought I was secretive (Scorpio), but staying "in the closet" around "straight" people (non-astrology lovers) seems to require more discretion than I have naturally.

Venus & Mars in Pisces: I'm more fragile than I might seem.

Leo Midheaven conjunct Pluto: I want attention, but I hate to admit it. Also, I feel my Pluto is the focal planet of a Yod -- I think I am not comfortable with power. I solve this by simply being alone, a lot. Solitude is ok.

In my childhood, I grew up in a small town where my parent was conspicuous and controversial. Think: mayor -judge - abortionist - psychotherapist - union leader. Something like that. As a result, I was also conspicuous, even though I didn't want to be. Aquarian Sun can go either way -- eccentric, or one-of-the-crowd. I always just wanted to be accepted.

Aries Moon in 5th house: Ditto above -- I want attention, but I hate to admit it. Also, I'm somewhat childish -- not immature, but somewhat demanding. I don't have kids, but I'm helping my aged parents manage some of their affairs (over-active Saturn influences in that Grand Cross.). I can be brash (and fun-loving), but with my Aries ruler -- Mars -- in Pisces, I'm not as abrasive as some Aries folks can be. (I'm too impatient to be a hands-on caregiver.)

Venus/Mars conjunct: I'm as comfortable with my male energies as with my female ones. I like to build houses, install flooring, have sex -- do all those Marsy type things. But these planets are in Pisces, in the 4th house. I'm a whiner, overly sensitive (there's a Grand Trine there, sort of, in the water signs -- Asc, Venus/Mars, and Uranus).

(Depending on orb, you could say Venus is the focal planet of another Yod.)

Aquarius Sun (and Mercury, and Aquarian North Node) in 3rd house -- Midheaven ruler is Sun: I think of myself as a writer, but I hate rejection :| (sigh). I worked as a reporter for a small newspaper many years ago, but the truth is, I don't really care about what goes on in the world around me -- I'd rather write essays/ personal columns, etc. Currently, I'm finally attempting, once more, to try and market my writing.

Saturn in the 12th (Pisces) house and Venus/Mars in Pisces: I am uncontrollably sucked into a "compassion" mode, even when the person I'm talking with doesn't really want compassion. Also, some tendency towards denial and self delusion, even though I think I'm so ultra-honest.

Elements:

Pretty evenly balanced. I sort of feel my cranky, critical Capricorn Mercury holds me back. When you look at the charts of some really successful athletes and other "stars," you see that they weren't bogged down with this much "common sense." I don't mean to be overly-critical or ridiculously thorough -- but my 3rd house Capricorn Mercury squares Saturn/Neptune. This is just how I do it.

Strong influences:

Uranus -- my Aquarian Sun ruler: it touches almost everything on my chart, except for my Sun. Talk about eccentric! And yet, I'm always trying to look normal. Uranus is in my 8th house -- sexual partnerships, and power. I'd say this area is important to me, but I have so many important areas in my life and on my chart... :wink:

Grand Cross: well, at least it's in the Cardinal signs -- that's a blessing! it's in two water houses (8 &12), an air house (3rd) and a fire house (5th).

Grand Trine: Asc (Scorpio) Venus/mars (Pisces) and Uranus (Cancer). All in Water houses.

Notice, all my personal planets are in the personal houses. That public world is fairly foreign to me.

I'm a mixture of whiny (water) critical (earth Mercury) wants attention (firy) and a certain amount of impartial (air Sun -- Aquarius).

:?: I'm only beginning to explore Chiron and the other asteroids. Maybe my attitude towards career has been affected by 10th house Lilith.

:?: I have no idea of the significance of Chiron in the 2nd house, conjunct my 3rd house Mercury.

Anyway-- this is me. Hello!

- C Jayne
 
Kite

Kite

Well-known member
Hello C Jayne!. I'll take a stab at adding some outside perspective into what you've talked about.

Let's start with that Jupiter Opposition to your Asc. You gave some clues on this but lets what the midpoints of the opposition say to get a clearer view. The midpoints are 14 Leo and Aquarius which also happens to be your South Node and North Node positions respectively.

Your Ascendant Sabian is definately acting in a Cardinal way and reads:

226__(16°)
A GIRL WITH ARISTOCRATIC FEATURES SMILES ENTRANCINGLY Fervent outreaching of self in moments of the purest beauty. Leaping to meet the potentialities of life. Blossoming forth.
___*When positive, the degree is man's ingratiating gift for employing the simple things of life for surmounting any momentary obstacles to his self-fulfillment, and when negative, self-betrayal through a lack of all discrimination.

Your Jupiter is cadent and intellectual in it's Sabian:

42__(12°)
YOUNG COUPLE WALKS DOWN MAIN STREET, WINDOW-SHOPPING Inner interest in outer life which leads to whole-souled participation and achievement. Self-projection. Estimation
___*When positive, the degree is high ability in presenting the immediate potentialities of human achievement and the consequent self-realizations, and when negative, self-depreciation and a dismissal of all really desirable things as beyond actual acquisition.

Your cadent Nodes give both an insight into the past aspect of this opposition and it's desirable future. First the past:

134__(14°)
CHERUB-LIKE, A HUMAN SOUL WHISPERS, SEEKING TO MANIFEST The desire to be, to suffer and to grow which brings Spirit to Earth. Whole-souled self-giving. Yearning for experience.
___*When positive, the degree is a genius for an absolute wholeheartedness of participation in the everyday adventures of personality, and when negative, naive procrastination and a lack of all genuine interest or enthusiasm.

And the desired state:

314__(14°)
ON A STEEP CLIMB, A TUNNEL OFFERS SHORT-CUT TO A TRAIN The way within to outer success. Sure relief to the toiler ready to face facts. Penetration and direct accomplishment.
___*When positive, the degree is man's gift for meeting the most exacting of demands on his various potentialities, and when negative, uninspired conformity to limitation.

You've spoken a lot about your need for attention which I think is best represented by your Pluto at the MC. Pluto is similar to the Nodes in being able to get sense of the soul's jouney but while the Nodes focus on directional path, Pluto focus's on evolutionary path. Your soul began at Sabian 23 Leo acting in a very social manner.

143__(23°)
THE BAREBACK RIDER IN A CIRCUS THRILLS EXCITED CROWDS The supremacy given to the man who has mastered his senses and his emotions. Full utilization of inner powers. Audacity.
___*When positive, the degree is uncompromising courage in the everyday business of living and a carefree assurance in meeting the problems of a modern society, and when negative, idle self-display and intemperate desire for applause.

And the polarity point of this position is where Pluto will evolve to:

323__(23°)
A BIG TRAINED BEAR PERFORMS,SITTING ON A HUGE CHAIR Need to build an adequate concrete vehicle for cosmic power. Performance beyond native endowment. A striving for balance.
___*When positive, the degree is a consistent desire for genuinely significant experience and a willingness to dramatize the self's potentials to any necessary extent, and when negative, frantic efforts to gain and hold attention.

Let's look at your separating conjunction of Saturn and Neptune and it's midpoint which is at 26 Libra.

206__(26°)
AN EAGLE AND A WHITE DOVE CHANGE SWIFTLY INTO EACH OTHER Necessary cooperation between mind, will, spirit-and heart, love. Power of psychological balance and compensation. Unity.
___*When positive, the degree is unusually effective self-discipline, and when negative, unhappy vacillation between ultimate ideals and momentary desires.

This is interesting as the degree of Saturn is showing as intellectual (also rules 3) and degree of Neptune as social (also rules 5) so this Sabian sheds insight into that. In the 12th house, I would imagine that it's a constant battle for you whether to act mentally or creatively since Sun is in 3 and Moon is 5. Since Venus rules 12 and is conjunct Mars in 4 (and Juno), this may account for using the home and your marriage to resolve this heart/mind dynamic (all the progression work on your husband's work for example).

The sabian for separating Mars/Venus Conjunction reinforces this sense of home as stage with the Sabian:

348__(18°)
IN A HUGE TENT A FAMOUS REVIVALIST CONDUCTS HIS MEETING Reinforcement of faith which can open up a new environment. A revision of ideas back to source. Critical survey of life.
___*When positive, the degree is a genius for organizing divergent capabilities in a common cause, and when negative, delusions of grandeur and unassuming bombast.

Looking at your Grand Trine is is helpful to get a sense of what the trines are pointing out. Looking at the midpoint of the Uranus trine Mars/Venus (All Cardinal positions by degree) says the following:

227__(17°)
WOMAN, FECUNDATED BY HER SPIRIT, IS "GREAT WITH CHILD" Fullness of self-reliance and individual destiny. Cooperation between spiritual and material agencies. Pure self-revelation.
___*When positive, the degree is an illimitable self-potentiality with effective spiritual or ideal as well as practical or everyday orientations, and when negative, a characteristically anarchistic self-sufficiency.

The midpoint of the trine between Mars/Venus and Asc. reads:

292__(22°)
DEFEATED GENERAL YIELDS UP HIS SWORD WITH NOBLE DIGNITY Apparent defeat that spells real spiritual victory. Bowing to custom. Conquest through conformity to establish norm.
___*When positive, the degree is a genius for learning from experience and transforming setback into accomplishment, and when negative, irresponsible acceptance of the worst and insensibility to self-inadequacy.

Finally, the midpoint between the Asc and Uranus reads:

171__(21°)
TWO TEAMS OF GIRLS ENGAGED IN A CONTEST OF BASKETBALL Physical wholesomeness as prelude to inner integration. Self-evaluation, or refusal to face self. The rhythm of instincts.
___*When positive, the degree is effective self-consummation through exceptional co-operation and adaptability, and when negative, listless conformity.

I think we need some more ingight on this Uranus as it so much of what's coming up deals with convention. It looks like Uranus is opposing Chiron and Squaring the Moon for a t-square (I think the Grand cross is out of orb but we will read for the cross position as that's where a lot will manifest).

Uranus Sabian is:

106__(16°)
A MAN HOLDS A SCROLL. BEFORE HIM, A SQUARE IS OUTLINED Underlying tendency to revert to root patterns of being:" squaring" oneself with everyday reality. Control over life.
___*When positive, the degree is an absolute and personal control and organization of self for the purposes of each special situation, and when negative, self-limitation through unimaginative perspective.

Chiron Sabian is:

286__(16°)
SCHOOL GROUNDS FILLED WITH YOUTHS IN GYMNASIUM SUITS Normal dependence upon physical stimulation. Robust enthusiasm in approaching life's contests; or immature impulsiveness.
___*When positive, the degree is an effective appreciation of joint action and a high skill in supervising group effort, and when negative, self-betrayal through unimaginative conventionality.

The Moon:

20__(20°)
A YOUNG GIRL FEEDING SWANS IN A PARK ON A WINTRY DAY Participation of self in a life larger than any conception of selfhood. Protection, or the need for it.
___*When positive, the degree is a naive genius in the administration of both the powers of nature and the potentialities of selfhood, and when negative, an overzealous and wasteful use of the self's resources in an effort to win approval by bread alone.

And it's polarity point which should provide the outlet for all this:

200__(20°)
OLD RABBI SITS CONTENTEDLY IN ROOM CROWDED WITH BOOKS Interest in permanent rather than transient values. Accumulation of ancient wisdom brought to use. Competent service.
___*When positive, the degree is the extraordinary insight which comes to those who are able to stand on the shoulders of the giants who have gone before, and when negative, an unhealthy sense of self-superiority.

This goes remarkably well with your Sun's sabian:

301__(1°)
OLD ADOBE MISSION NESTLES IN CALIFORNIA'S BROWN HILLS Mastery of man over environment while becoming an integral part of it. Recognition of established values. Impressiveness.
___*When positive, the degree is effective breadth of vision and a respect-compelling depth of character, and when negative, lack of ambition and blind adherence to superficialities.

Now it tems of BML, it squares Ceres which probably accounts for no kids..whether chosen or given.

Looking at your chart, I see I've missed the t-square with Mercury and Saturn/Neptune and Moon. Since I've read most of the Sabians here, let's look at what's uncovered. Mercury is in a social degree and it's sabian is:

293__(23°)
A SOLDIER RECEIVES DECOROUSLY TWO AWARDS FOR BRAVERY Reward offered by society for the fulfilling of individual responsibility. Recognition of worth; unearned good fortune.
___*When positive, the degree is the social stewardship which demands a continual self-dedication, and when negative, strutting self-exploitation.

It's polarity point where most of the energy will outlet is:

113__(23°)
A GROUP OF INTELLECTUAL INDIVIDUALS MEET FOR DISCUSSION Interchange of ideas among any elite as a basis for the cultural development of the whole. Mental or physical fellowship.
___*When positive, the degree is accomplishment through an exacting appreciation of common effort and a rigorous revaluation of private acts and attitudes, and when negative, a substitution of idle discussion for actual participation in reality.

Hope the discussion is going well,

Kite
 
C

C Jayne

Well-known member
Cheez Kite, I had no idea you'd be so generous with your efforts! Thank you very very much!

Each time I look over one of those Sabian descriptions, I find myself wrestling with whether or not I'm doing it the "bad" way -- like "blind adherence to superficialities." Those Sabian descriptions are like a whole different kind of astrology for me!

You also have other perspectives that are over my head, like:

Kite said:
Now it tems of BML, it squares Ceres which probably accounts for no kids..whether chosen or given.
Click to expand...

I'd love it if you wouldn't mind giving me some perspectives on Chiron, BML, Ceres and Part of Fortune on my chart. AstroDienst calculates a different placement of Part of Fortune than I've seen previously, and that thing never worked for me. Do you know about it?

Again, much thanks.

--- CJ
 
Kite

Kite

Well-known member
I'd love it if you wouldn't mind giving me some perspectives on Chiron, BML, Ceres and Part of Fortune on my chart.
Click to expand...

CJ - I loved Frisiangal's view on the difference between Lilith and Chiron in that Chiron is real wounding while Lilith is about perceived wounding.

Ceres has to do with mother/child nurturing and reproduction. With Black Moon Lilith squaring Ceres I read this as either something driving the decision not to have kids or the hurt coming from not be able to reproduce or a combination of the two. I looked at the midpoint in the square from more insight which in Libra so maybe this was a joint decision. It reads:

199__(19°)
ROBBERS ARE HIDING, READY TO ATTACK HEAVILY ARMED CARAVAN Protest against the perpetuation of unearned social privileges and wealth. Repudiation of bondage. Challenge to custom.
___*When positive, the degree is alertness to every threat against a true individuality, and when negative, abnormal mistrust of everything worth while.

It reminds of the bumper sticker I would see on Winnabagos: We're spending our kids inheritance!

Part of Fortune I'm a little jaded with since mine is conjunct the South Node and the malific star Algol. You might call mine the Part of Misfortune. In your case it sits between Lilith and Pluto at the MC. Important position and supported with the Trine from Saturn. I'm going to take a wild guess and say the shadow work around Lilith and Pluto are the keys to the buried treasure in the Part of Fotune:

148__(28°)
MYRIADS OF BIRDS, PERCHED UPON A BIG TREE, CHIRP HAPPILY Social nature of experience as man finds sustainment in a larger whole of being. Normal, collective self-expression.
___*When positive, the degree is man's effective mobilization of all the unrealized possibilities of his destiny, and when negative, an enjoyment of confusion or the momentary self-importance it brings.

Kite
 
Lunar Pisces

Lunar Pisces

Well-known member
Kite said:
I'd love it if you wouldn't mind giving me some perspectives on Chiron, BML, Ceres and Part of Fortune on my chart.
Click to expand...

CJ - I loved Frisiangal's view on the difference between Lilith and Chiron in that Chiron is real wounding while Lilith is about perceived wounding.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree. Lilith was genuinely wounded - she was wounded by her own community. That's the distinction between Lilith and Chiron. Lilith represents wounds that stem from our connection with society in general, and in particular our community and culture. Lilith's wound is espeically cruel because it can be seen, but society choses not to see it. As result, the sufferer is often lead to believe, by coercion or propaganda, that their wound isn't real. Society, like this porposed view of Frisiangal also suggests, sees any complant by a Lilith figure as her own percieved woundedness, with the inference that it's not real. It's like a woman who was brutally raped, and people telling her, "Well, you must have done something to deserve it, so it's not really a crime, and hey, it's just sex - what's the big deal?" Lilith's wound is alienating - it reprents to worst of human nature, of how terribly people can treat another - it speaks of the darkest nature of human society. Lilith's wound can breed deep anger or cynicism, or it can lead us to acceptence, wisdom and understanding. This is the choice we face when we confront Lilith's wound within ourselves.

Chiron represents a wound that is hidden. Chiron was wounded out of self-sarcifice, not by punishment or cruelty by others. It's a wound that is brought on by one's deepest and truest nature, a nature that is not readily visible - hence the wound isn't either. Likewise, understanding Chiron's wound leads us to a deeper understanding of ourselves, of our potential to be noble, wise and self-sarificing. Like Lilith's wound, Chiron's wound is troubling because there's no easy answer and it's a wound that is never healed. We must find to courage to confront, learn from it and make the right choices.
 
Kite

Kite

Well-known member
Thanks Lunar Pisces - I was probably not the right person to comment on that, especially since I have BML conjunct Chiron in the 12th house. My Chiron return is actually exact today in 8 Aquarius.

I like what you said here about the wound being too real for the inflicted and minimized by everyone else.

Kite
 
C

C Jayne

Well-known member
Kite said:
Ceres has to do with mother/child nurturing and reproduction. With Black Moon Lilith squaring Ceres I read this as either something driving the decision not to have kids or the hurt coming from not be able to reproduce or a combination of the two.
Click to expand...

Hi Kite!

When I hear you talk about this stuff, it's clear to me that you understand what you're talking about, which is why I value you giving me a "read" on what my chart means.

But my knowledge of Ceres and Chiron and BML is so elementary (or less) that I kind of need for you to spell it out for me, and I'll give you feedback about the topics your discussion brings up, and then maybe each of us will learn something.

I married late the first time, and even later the second time. I always felt strongly that babies and children need two parents in order to have a happy household. I had one pregnancy, which I ended, by choice, three weeks into the pregnancy (I would have done this at two weeks, but the clinic said this could be unhealthy). I spent a great deal of time praying and meditating about this decision. I had no doubt about my plan -- I did not love the father (one night stand -- sweet alcoholic guy) -- and I was much too old to think about sitting around pregnant for nine months, then giving the baby up.

The night before the abortion, she came to me in a dream, weeping, not speaking at all, just weeping and weeping, and I apologized to her, trying to comfort her. She was a Native American woman (the father was a rather offbeat white guy -- not Native American). She finally just disappeared. I was never sure whether she was weeping because I was closing off this chance for her to have a life, or if it was because I was closing off this chance for me to be a mother, this time. And then, I never again got pregnant, and married so late and to parties who did not particularly want children, and so I never had them. I never felt myself to be a mother -- I am impatient, I lose interest in things, I'm not always reliable -- all the things I would certainly criticize someone else for doing to their child. I wanted to be a perfect mother, or else, not at all, not this time. I felt I was giving the Native American lady the opoprtunity to find a life -- a body-- a family -- where she would truly be loved, instead of one where, from Day One, she would be unappreciated.

With my Moon in my 5th house, I believe I probably was a mother in a past life -- maybe I had lots of kids that time. In this life, my true but irrational wish would have been to have a well-raised 20 year old -- but none of the difficulties of midnight diapers, teenage jealousy and angst, etc. etc. A child of mine would have required a partner who wanted to do 51% of the parenting.


Kite said:
It reminds of the bumper sticker I would see on Winnabagos: We're spending our kids inheritance!
Click to expand...

Those symbolic Sabian quotes make sense to you. For me, they are way, way over my head -- like mythology. When Liz Greene explains things that way, I kind of get what she's saying, but it has taken me years of practical, hands-on experience to understand what it actually means on a chart.

Kite said:
Part of Fortune I'm a little jaded with since mine is conjunct the South Node and the malific star Algol. You might call mine the Part of Misfortune. In your case it sits between Lilith and Pluto at the MC. Important position and supported with the Trine from Saturn. I'm going to take a wild guess and say the shadow work around Lilith and Pluto are the keys to the buried treasure in the Part of Fotune:
Click to expand...

Everybody else who has ever hand-calculated my chart put my Part of Fortune at 3 degrees Aquarius, next to my Sun. Now, suddenly, AstroDienst puts it right on my Midheaven. My sister-in-law has hers there, and she's fantastic with money -- rakes it in, makes big, important real estate deals -- and is perfectly comfortable defining herself in the world, at large. I am a homebody -- sometimes overly frank when I'm in public, just as I have been in this posting. You never know what you'll get from me. But I wouldn't have expected someone like me to have Part of Fortune conjunct the Midheaven.

Can you tell me (or, can anybody tell me--) what Ceres means, and what the Gemini/ 7th house placement means?

Ditto for Chiron, conjunct my Capricorn Mercury in the 3rd houes, or Lillith in Virgo, out there all alone in my 10th house?

I appreciate anybody's feedback.

- CJ
 
C

C Jayne

Well-known member
Lunar Pisces said:
Lilith was genuinely wounded - she was wounded by her own community.
Click to expand...

So is this why I have such an aversion to defining myself in the world, with Lilith in the 10th house?

As I mentioned earlier, I grew up in an environment where I had unwanted celebrity in my little town. And it seemed to me that having wealth puts people on some kind of pedestel where others feel they can take pot shots at you and expect certain things of you. Generally speaking, I have not gotten much gratification out of being "on show." I wrote a small book and attended a book signing where a number of people showed up who had either read the book or were very interested in the topic. I did not have to be sophisticated and polished or have savoir faire, I could just be myself and giggle with them about how exciting it was to have all these people together who were interested in this obscure topic. That's the closest I ever came to a moment of glory that I liked.

I had always felt that my aversion to public display of myself, or to having a "career" stemmed from having a Yod (loosely) with Pluto as the focal planet, conjunct my Midheaven. Was I overlooking some importance of Lilith (which, in my early thinking, I did not even know existed)?

Lunar Pisces said:
Chiron represents a wound that is hidden. Chiron was wounded out of self-sarcifice, not by punishment or cruelty by others. It's a wound that is brought on by one's deepest and truest nature, a nature that is not readily visible - hence the wound isn't either. Likewise, understanding Chiron's wound leads us to a deeper understanding of ourselves, of our potential to be noble, wise and self-sarificing. Like Lilith's wound, Chiron's wound is troubling because there's no easy answer and it's a wound that is never healed. We must find to courage to confront, learn from it and make the right choices.
Click to expand...

Tell me how this fits in with the writing I have done and want to get paid to do.

I consider myself a writer, although I've had my hands full with other obligations in recent years. I'm an award-winner in column writing, but I earned this award while employed as a reporter, which means 90% of my time was spent chasing fire engines and only 10% could be devoted to doing things I loved, like writing introspective columns.

What does the placement of Chiron typically mean?

--- CJ
 
Kite

Kite

Well-known member
I'm going to take some stabs in the dark based on what I was shown in my dream last night.

Lilith rebelled from being used by man for his ego/power issues shown by her refusal to accept the missionary position in sex. Abuse psychology tells us that the abused can easily turn into the abuser to re-enact the original trauma to try to resolve it. So here we have Lilith who was to be Man's ticket to immortality through the children she would bare by laying on her back and receiving him. Is it any womnder that Lilith is also associated with killing the unborn babies of the Adam and Eve generation later?

So Lilith was the abused who turned into the abuser. The things we can attribute to a 10th house Lilith conjunct the Part of Fortune would be a feeling of being used for the wealth you speak of or you using to get it. Perhaps emotional blackmail is in the mix as that element came through strong in my dream. I know this was something I suffered from in the story I told in the Yod thread.

With your Chiron in Capricorn in the 2nd house conjunt Mercury, ruler of the 8th house, there is a relationship between Lilith and Chiron over money and what is done to earn it, keep it, and protect it. Perhaps your writing was a catharsis experience for you as it avoided the wound of "other's money" issues and put you directly in control of your own earnings and recognition with the 10th house connections and Capricorn.

You were now known for what you produced - not your family. Perhaps this is how Ceres in 7 in Gemini is connected. The baby you wanted to create was to be outside the family curse of recognition for wealth..so to speak. Lilith's abortion of the Native American was to break the curse you suffered from not having your own identity (your Pluto Yod - ruler of the ascendant and conjunct MC). You would produce your own harvest (Ceres also is associated with that) in the form of your writing.

Mercury which deposits Ceres sits in 3 in Capricorn. It's Sabian reads:

293__(23°)
A SOLDIER RECEIVES DECOROUSLY TWO AWARDS FOR BRAVERY Reward offered by society for the fulfilling of individual responsibility. Recognition of worth; unearned good fortune.
___*When positive, the degree is the social stewardship which demands a continual self-dedication, and when negative, strutting self-exploitation.

Kite
 
C

C Jayne

Well-known member
Kite said:
... With your Chiron in Capricorn in the 2nd house conjunt Mercury, ruler of the 8th house, there is a relationship between Lilith and Chiron over money and what is done to earn it, keep it, and protect it....

... the wealth you speak of or you ... Perhaps emotional blackmail is in the mix ...
Click to expand...

Kite-- this feels very on-target. Although I come from a very loving family, there was always the element of, "If you really loved me you would xxxxx," which basically meant, sacrificing your own individuality for the sake of the family. That might be part of why I'm so aversed to being a "team player."

Kite said:
... Lilith's abortion of the Native American was to break the curse you suffered from not having your own identity (your Pluto Yod - ruler of the ascendant and conjunct MC). You would produce your own harvest (Ceres also is associated with that) in the form of your writing....
Click to expand...

This is very healing for me. Yes, one of the things I had wrestled with, in the years before my 3-week long pregnancy, was that I did not want to get the cart before the horse -- the marriage before the career, the baby before the career -- and yet, my tangled obligations/ emotional blackmail relationship with my family has always made it difficult for me to simply pursue my own goals and desires. It's a tricky thing -- they would hand me the pen to write with, but then they would want to sit by my side and ask me how I felt about what I was doing before I knew how I felt.

Kite said:
... Perhaps your writing was a catharsis experience for you as it avoided the wound of "other's money" issues and put you directly in control of your own earnings and recognition with the 10th house connections and Capricorn. You were now known for what you produced - not your family....
Click to expand...

This is true. And yet, I continue to have trouble in the area of focusing. Should I help my husband with this? should I help my parents with that? Should I xxxx? or xxx? or xxxx? It's like I have to have everyone's permission for me to go "do my own thing," and then, when I finally have it, I sort of get stage fright.

Kite said:
... Perhaps this is how Ceres in 7 in Gemini is connected. The baby you wanted to create was to be outside the family curse of recognition for wealth..so to speak. ...
Click to expand...

So the baby I "wanted" to create was ME! I've always interpreted the 5th house according to my own chart and my own situation, which I feel means: having Moon in the 5th can mean you spend your life being a child, being your own child -- it doesn't have to mean having children, as the traditionalists would say.

Kite said:
... in my dream ...
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Strange how these people we meet on the forum come into our very dreams, isn't it?

Kite, this has all been quite intoxicating for me, but now I'd like to get my feet back on the ground and hear a thumbnail sketch of what these three elements are. I'm sort of getting the idea of Lilith. Who is Ceres? Who is Chiron? I mean, I've been reading up on Chiron, so I'm hearing the words about who he is, but, on an astrological chart, I still don't get the drift -- when Chiron connects with a personal planet, what qualities does that personality part gain (or lose)?

Same thing with Ceres?

Thank you so much for your interpretation of these three for me. It was really very very illuminating.

-- CJ
 
C

C Jayne

Well-known member
Kite--

Thank you for all the links! I am now accumulating so many of them I have a folder in Favorites called Astrology. I think most of them I picked up from postings of yours.

I may have been asking to be spoon-fed -- another factor in that emotional blackmail thing I learned at such a young age -- Laziness is another way of trying to manipulate people into doing your work for you!

Your interpretations were not only helpful and illuminating, they opened me up and helped me face some stuff about myself. I really really appreciate it.

I'm trying to "have a life," so I'm trying to wean myself from the forum, but it's difficult. Very interesting stuff here.

if you'd like me to look over your chart, please let me know. I'm sure it will be awhile before I can look through the Yods thread. When I do have spare time, I've been looking over the Asteroids thread instead.

Again, much much thanks. -- CJ
 
F

Frisiangal

Well-known member
Kite said:
I'm going to take some stabs in the dark based on what I was shown in my dream last night.

Lilith rebelled from being used by man for his ego/power issues shown by her refusal to accept the missionary position in sex. Abuse psychology tells us that the abused can easily turn into the abuser to re-enact the original trauma to try to resolve it. So here we have Lilith who was to be Man's ticket to immortality through the children she would bare by laying on her back and receiving him. Is it any womnder that Lilith is also associated with killing the unborn babies of the Adam and Eve generation later?
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Hi,
I've only just picked up this thread.
Can I offer another perspective of Lilith arising from my own mystical experiences the week following the Solar Eclipse of 1999 exact my 12th house Jupiter, and transiting Black Moon Lilith entering my 4th house, that has been the inspiration behind my study of its point? The fact that my granddaughter, Lillianne, was born barely 6 months later, seemed to provide the 'proof' that I was on a good track.

A feminine perspective!
The whole myth around Lilith, presumably written by ancient religious scribes, may have been a manner of protecting man from the consequences of that which he didn't fully understand or could consciously control : the instinctive but irrepressible desires that arise unbidden whenever a pretty woman crosses his path :wink:

But taking that myth as it stands and is always referred to. It has always been assumed that Lilith presented a woman of infamous nature. But what if she was a child of innocence ; the natural instinctive and uninhibited feeling state ( Genesis: In the beginning, the Earth was without form?) that was there long before the physical state of a conditioned behaviour pattern by Moon and Saturn?
Would there not be another reason for child innocence to refuse to 'lie underneath'? Could there not be another reason for 'child killer' and barrenness? It would be impossible for a child not yet reached puberty to conceive. Child-bearing falls under the Moon...Eve...taken from Adam (Earth?) to subjugate to his will!

Two of the constants in my study are:
1. 'the hidden child' . Experiences through the eyes of a child not yet into adolescence that take on an 'image of reality' that may or may not be so and can be oppressed (according to aspects of natal chart).
2. the wisdom in age; the period following child-bearing, when the Moon's influence is extinguished. Lilith seems to lay dormant during the Moon years influence, almost like the princesses of folk tales.

So Lilith was the abused who turned into the abuser.
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It is truly amazing that the majority of examples I have of file are Lilith in Virgo. All have all been the subject of 'ab-use' in childhood, be it physical, mental or emotional. They all ab-used themselves through their hidden feelings that they were wrong, rather than abusing others. I guess BML needs to bring up the realityt of a situation to them.

I do not work with asteroids. In C.J's chart, therefore, the only aspects Black Moon Lilith in Virgo makes are a close inconjunct with her natal Sun and a sesquiquadrate with her Aries Moon. Was she an only child or one who was not given the importance of personal existence an Aries Moon needs? She lived in their shadow, only as part or an extension of them; not seen as a human being in her own right BML is in the 10th house. I would translate this that, in some way, C.J. FEELS contaminated in her presence in the world by the effect that her parents had upon her as a child. If her own needs were never fulfilled, its position may constitute a reason she decided against having children herself, apart from their 'spoiling' her career possibilities that she mentioned herself. Deep down inside she may have felt incapable of child-rearing because Virgo's ' correct way' was never shown her, so could not feel as a natural part of her. But Virgo is the most natural sign of all. The native Americans lived with natural cycles of life. Her dream may have been the image of her motherhood denied by a Moon child's nature that still influenced the adult ?

I still personally feel that there is a difference between Chiron and Lilith, simply because Chiron is made up of physical matter and Lilith isn't. That's her point. But that's just me :)

Just 2 cents of 'nothing'.

F.
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C

C Jayne

Well-known member
Frisiangal said:
C.J.Who's the woman behind you in your person drawing? the past or the future? F.
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Glad you asked!

I am, perhaps 20 years older than the young woman in the foreground, and yet I am perhaps 20 years younger than the one hiding behind her.

Those of us entering our "crone" years (cringe cringe) will agree that we sometimes feel we are traveling incognito, in disguise -- To the world around me, I am middle-aged. How ridiculous! I'm not that old yet! And yet, what is the correct image of us? There are no images of salt-and-pepper women who are no longer as slender as we wish we were and no longer as smooth-cheeked as we once were, and yet, not yet a vision of true grandmotherliness either.

Hot flashes aside, that old lady keeps trying to climb out in front, but she's only chasing me, she's not going to get me, at least not for awhile! :roll:

-- :lol: CJ
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
C Jayne said:
Click here to get my chart:

http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cjaynenatalchart2yl.png

Here I am -- struggling along with this life-plan which has challenged me for, yea these many years. And now I'm on the verge of -- well, I'm old enough I could be a grandmother.

Born: Late, with umbilical cord tied in a knot. Could have been dead, but instead, have simply spent a lifetime going in circles, always trying to "find myself, find myself."

Scorpio Asc opposes Jupiter: Compulsive risk taker. I try things that shouldn't be attempted. Also, I'm compulsively honest (in my own opinion).

I no longer tell people in my everyday life about me and astrology. They already thought I was weird, and they really think I'm weird if I let them know about me and the stars! I never thought I was secretive (Scorpio), but staying "in the closet" around "straight" people (non-astrology lovers) seems to require more discretion than I have naturally.

Venus & Mars in Pisces: I'm more fragile than I might seem.

Leo Midheaven conjunct Pluto: I want attention, but I hate to admit it. Also, I feel my Pluto is the focal planet of a Yod -- I think I am not comfortable with power. I solve this by simply being alone, a lot. Solitude is ok.

In my childhood, I grew up in a small town where my parent was conspicuous and controversial. Think: mayor -judge - abortionist - psychotherapist - union leader. Something like that. As a result, I was also conspicuous, even though I didn't want to be. Aquarian Sun can go either way -- eccentric, or one-of-the-crowd. I always just wanted to be accepted.

Aries Moon in 5th house: Ditto above -- I want attention, but I hate to admit it. Also, I'm somewhat childish -- not immature, but somewhat demanding. I don't have kids, but I'm helping my aged parents manage some of their affairs (over-active Saturn influences in that Grand Cross.). I can be brash (and fun-loving), but with my Aries ruler -- Mars -- in Pisces, I'm not as abrasive as some Aries folks can be. (I'm too impatient to be a hands-on caregiver.)

Venus/Mars conjunct: I'm as comfortable with my male energies as with my female ones. I like to build houses, install flooring, have sex -- do all those Marsy type things. But these planets are in Pisces, in the 4th house. I'm a whiner, overly sensitive (there's a Grand Trine there, sort of, in the water signs -- Asc, Venus/Mars, and Uranus).

(Depending on orb, you could say Venus is the focal planet of another Yod.)

Aquarius Sun (and Mercury, and Aquarian North Node) in 3rd house -- Midheaven ruler is Sun: I think of myself as a writer, but I hate rejection :| (sigh). I worked as a reporter for a small newspaper many years ago, but the truth is, I don't really care about what goes on in the world around me -- I'd rather write essays/ personal columns, etc. Currently, I'm finally attempting, once more, to try and market my writing.

Saturn in the 12th (Pisces) house and Venus/Mars in Pisces: I am uncontrollably sucked into a "compassion" mode, even when the person I'm talking with doesn't really want compassion. Also, some tendency towards denial and self delusion, even though I think I'm so ultra-honest.

Elements:

Pretty evenly balanced. I sort of feel my cranky, critical Capricorn Mercury holds me back. When you look at the charts of some really successful athletes and other "stars," you see that they weren't bogged down with this much "common sense." I don't mean to be overly-critical or ridiculously thorough -- but my 3rd house Capricorn Mercury squares Saturn/Neptune. This is just how I do it.

Strong influences:

Uranus -- my Aquarian Sun ruler: it touches almost everything on my chart, except for my Sun. Talk about eccentric! And yet, I'm always trying to look normal. Uranus is in my 8th house -- sexual partnerships, and power. I'd say this area is important to me, but I have so many important areas in my life and on my chart... :wink:

Grand Cross: well, at least it's in the Cardinal signs -- that's a blessing! it's in two water houses (8 &12), an air house (3rd) and a fire house (5th).

Grand Trine: Asc (Scorpio) Venus/mars (Pisces) and Uranus (Cancer). All in Water houses.

Notice, all my personal planets are in the personal houses. That public world is fairly foreign to me.

I'm a mixture of whiny (water) critical (earth Mercury) wants attention (firy) and a certain amount of impartial (air Sun -- Aquarius).

:?: I'm only beginning to explore Chiron and the other asteroids. Maybe my attitude towards career has been affected by 10th house Lilith.

:?: I have no idea of the significance of Chiron in the 2nd house, conjunct my 3rd house Mercury.

Anyway-- this is me. Hello!

- C Jayne
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Humanitarian said:
Hello CJ! Glad to see you here in this Astrology Weekly forum!
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hello welcome C Jayne :)


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