Planetary dignities and debilities

Julian

Julian

Banned
Modern astrologers think they aren't so important. I agree. I have Mercury in Pisces and I personally think it is important in my life and it's able to have a positive role in my life.

For example, a Sun in Libra isn't bad. If you truly think dignities and debilities are very important then you say that every Sun sign except Aries and Leo are bad.

It's weird because I have a very logical mind and a very ilogical mind. I have both abilities. I have had some premonitions in the past. Like feeling like something bad is gonna happen and it does. On the other side, I'm very good at mathematics. I think it's because I have Mercury stationary which gives me some logical qualities and Mercury trining the ascendant.
 
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C

cspencer

Banned
Julian said:
Modern astrologers think they aren't so important. I agree.
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You haven't studied astrology long enough.

Julian said:
I have Mercury in Pisces and I personally think it is important in my life and it's able to have a positive role in my life.
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John Wayne Gacy had a Pisces Mercury, too.

So did Casey Anthony.

So did Kurt Cobain.

What's your point?

People tend to have an overt bias toward their own charts, simply because they are unable to admit their own weaknesses.

When you've done a few hundred charts, you'll see differently.

So you have a Pisces Mercury.

What is Jupiter doing? Is Mercury under attack by Mars or Saturn? The Moon? Is Mercury combust? Retrograde? Occidental? Oriental?

Those things matter.

Julian said:
For example, a Sun in Libra isn't bad. If you truly think dignities and debilities are very important then you say that every Sun sign except Aries and Leo are bad.
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That's a logical fallacy.

No one ever said a Libra Sun is bad. A Libra Sun is debilitated because it is in fall. The Sun acts differently and the disposition of Venus will help determine that.

The effect of the Sun is based in part on whether or not the Sun has reached 19°Libra
 
Julian

Julian

Banned
cspencer said:
You haven't studied astrology long enough.



John Wayne Gacy had a Pisces Mercury, too.

So did Casey Anthony.

So did Kurt Cobain.

What's your point?

People tend to have an overt bias toward their own charts, simply because they are unable to admit their own weaknesses.

When you've done a few hundred charts, you'll see differently.

So you have a Pisces Mercury.

What is Jupiter doing? Is Mercury under attack by Mars or Saturn? The Moon? Is Mercury combust? Retrograde? Occidental? Oriental?

Those things matter.



That's a logical fallacy.

No one ever said a Libra Sun is bad. A Libra Sun is debilitated because it is in fall. The Sun acts differently and the disposition of Venus will help determine that.


The effect of the Sun is based in part on whether or not the Sun has reached 19°Libra
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My Mercury is in the cusp of the 9th house and stationary. It's not being attacked by Mars or Saturn, heck, even Mars is weakly trining Mercury. Saturn has no aspects with Mercury. I have Mercury quincunx Moon. It's not combust and it's oriental.
 
tsmall

tsmall

Premium Member
Julian said:
My Mercury is in the cusp of the 9th house and stationary. It's not being attacked by Mars or Saturn, heck, even Mars is weakly trining Mercury. Saturn has no aspects with Mercury. I have Mercury quincunx Moon. It's not combust and it's oriental.
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Stationary direct or retrograde? Well, it must be stationary retrograde as you say Mercury is oriental. Mercury is cadent and debilitated by sign placement as well as solar phase. Trine Mars? From Cancer or Scorpio? Where is Jupiter? Dignity and debility matter, because when a planet is essentially dignified then it has access to the resources it needs to carry out its mission. When it is debilitated then it must rely on other things in order to perform. However dignity and debility are only one consideration when evaluating a planet.
 
Julian

Julian

Banned
tsmall said:
Stationary direct or retrograde? Well, it must be stationary retrograde as you say Mercury is oriental. Mercury is cadent and debilitated by sign placement as well as solar phase. Trine Mars? From Cancer or Scorpio? Where is Jupiter? Dignity and debility matter, because when a planet is essentially dignified then it has access to the resources it needs to carry out its mission. When it is debilitated then it must rely on other things in order to perform. However dignity and debility are only one consideration when evaluating a planet.
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Mercury is receiving a very weak trine from Mars in Scorpio, which is in its own sign and triplicity. Mercury is also trining the Ascendant by a 4-5 degrees off I think. Jupiter is in Aries, peregrine, but conjunct the Sun. Jupiter is direct, oriental, in hayz and yeah the Sun is in exaltation, in its own triplicity and face, although they're also in the 9th house by the placidus system. If you're using the whole signs then they're in the 10th house. Also Mercury is in a sextile to Venus in Taurus in the 10th (placidus) or 11th (whole-signs)


Also Jupiter is in mutual reception with Pluto if you consider Pluto to sub-rule Aries. I have Jupiter trine Pluto, sextile Uranus and sextile PoF.

Also I say Mars is in a very weak trine because it's almost 10 degrees off and Mars is retrograde.

And finally, Mercury is stationary direct (IMO) because it's about to turn direct, not to turn retrograde.
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
tsmall said:
Stationary direct or retrograde?
Well, it must be stationary retrograde as you say Mercury is oriental.

Mercury is cadent and debilitated by sign placement as well as solar phase.
Trine Mars?
From Cancer or Scorpio?
Where is Jupiter?
Dignity and debility matter, because when a planet is essentially dignified then it has access to the resources it needs to carry out its mission.
When it is debilitated then it must rely on other things in order to perform.
However dignity and debility are only one consideration when evaluating a planet.
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Julian's natal Mercury IS RETROGRADE
astro.com shows natal Mercury as retrograde
because their software is accurate to one arc second
however
Julian prefers to use Solar Fire which is not as accurate


i.e.
Mercury continued to retrograde
by specifically one arc minute :smile:
from 20 degrees 53 Pisces
back to 20 degrees 52 Pisces

and then stationed

[deleted off-topic comment - Moderator]

i.e.

If Mercury is going backwards at all
even for one arc minute
then it's going backwards

i.e.

going backwards = retrograde :smile:


Mercury went backwards for one arc minute
THEN stationed
THEN went forwards

Interesting example of the accuracy of astro.com software


tsmall, the following is Julian's astro.com chart from one of multiple threads on the same subject :smile:


JUPITERASC said:
attachment.php



Your natal chart shows Jupiter is Peregrine
comparable with a stranger in a strange land, not very comfortable


and Jupiter is combust


i.e.


QUOTE

A planet is combust when it is in conjunction with the Sun and therefore hidden from sight by the light of the Sun.

Traditionally this is a serious debility and implies that the planet is weakened or restricted in power.


IF the planet is within 17 minutes of the Sun, it is termed Cazimi = in the heart of the Sun
- and considered strengthened by the union.


Keep in mind that for 'CAZIMI'
very close conjunction
(17' or less of arc)
by BOTH ecliptic latitude AND longitude :smile:
are required


BUT

note: in this case Jupiter IS NOT within 17 minutes of the Sun
and therefore Jupiter IS NOT cazimi


In his Introduction, William Lilly stated that a planet in the same sign as the Sun and within 8° 30' of the sun IS COMBUST


beyond this distance - 8° 30' of the sun, but within 17 ° of the Sun,
the planet is said to be under the Sun's beams.
This condition is debilitating, but not as severe as combustion.
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waybread

waybread

Well-known member
tsmall is the expert here, Julian!

But just to chime in-- as a modern astrologer, I think domiciles are important, but I don't much use the other essential dignities and debilities. In fact, the more I study the history of ancient astrology, the more I realize that there are two systems for the terms (Egyptian and Babylonian,) that they don't agree and hence would give different results, that the first great author on the terms (Ptolemy) actually got some of them wrong http://www.skyscript.co.uk/terms.html, and that nobody actually knows what is their basis. Did they once indicate certain sectors of the heavens, stars, or asterisms?

I wouldn't see particular placements as "good" or "bad," regardless. A sun in Libra isn't a sun in Leo; but a Leo sun can be bossy and narcissistic; whereas a Libra sun can be pleasant and diplomatic. A Cancer moon can be moody in the extreme, whereas a Capricorn moon can be practical and efficient.

I would prefer terms like "strong" or "weak," but a strong planet is not necessarily beneficial to the native or to anyone else. But more to the point, I see each planet in its sign and house as operating in its own way. What house is it in? What other planets aspect it, and how? Are any two planets in mutual reception or parallel?

Learning all of this takes time. I think one of the biggest problems for newbies is in making quick judgements about how planets operate based on too little reading-- and too little practice in chart interpretation.

The best thing you can do now is to read widely, and explore a lot of charts. Generally astrologers decide pretty early-on whether they prefer western modern, traditional, Vedic/jyotish, or a blend-- and then the rules can become quite different.

In traditional astrology, however, a planet is generally weakened by being conjunct the sun (with some exceptions,) but this wouldn't be the case in modern astrology. I would say, rather, that the person identifies with whatever the planet conjunct his sun (identity) represents. So I don't see your personal focus on Mercury nearly as important to your self-image as Jupiter. In the 9th house, it suggests an interest in "big picture" learning, of the type that is normally more addressed in universities than in high school.

Moreover, with Pisces on the cusp of Mercury's house, and with Jupiter as the traditional ruler of Pisces, your Mercury has a strong Jupiterian and 9th house overlay-- beyond your Mercury's simple placement on its own.
 
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