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Unread 06-24-2013, 06:20 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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I am familiar with the argument that in looking at a mass death event like a tsunami, you have to look at "other considerations." National charts are sometimes given as an example. Trouble is, for many countries there is no clear-cut single chart to use. Also, some natural disasters hit several countries-- or do not hit vast parts of a single country.

Bob, it's nice to see someone so passionate about astrology.

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Unread 06-24-2013, 10:57 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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In India today as well as in Greece in ancient times, predicting the time of death is not/was not considered an immoral act and in fact was built into cultural norms and values.

In India today, those ancient ultural norms and values in relation to the practice of astrology have remained as is evidenced by the fact that in India today, a High Court has ruled that astrology is defined as a Science - in India, astrologers who can accurately predict death, as well as other life-altering events, are much sought after.

In India, astrologers are not attacked/vilified for their ability to predict a time of death, but appreciated for doing so.

JMO a moral debate, i.e. whether an action is either 'right' or 'wrong' is based on societal standards of 'right' or 'wrong'.


Ancient astrologers, as well as traditional astrologers in past centuries, freely used ancient techniques that predicted death as a matter of course and were free from the possibility of being accused of immorality because it was culturally normal for them to predict death.

Those same techniques from ancient and traditional astrology are in use today – but not by all astrologers.

In fact some astrologers are unaware of how to apply ancient techniques of predicting death due to never having learned how to do that - possibly due to being content with their preferred form of delineation. And that is personal choice. No astrologer is forced to use any technique to predict death if that astrologer does not want to do so. Likewise no astrologer is forced to NOT use any technique to predict death for a client who has requested them to do so. It's simply a matter of individual judgement.


However, there are astrologers who are interested in these ancient techniques and who do use techniques to predict death AND because in many cities cultural norms and values have shifted over the centuries, it is inevitable that there are differences of opinion on this matter.

JMO these differences of opinion are highlighted in particular because today the internet is available in a multitude of cities all over the world and this forum is an example of an internet forum on which people from different cultural norms and values are exchanging opinions. So on this forum it is more than likely there shall be many differences of opinion, simply due to the many different cultural norms and values of the members.

JMO then, the morality or immorality of predicting death is a matter of opinion based on different cultural norms and values therefore – given the multiplicity of norms and values of the various contributors to this interesting topic, it is not surprising that we are having a lively discussion on this thread... particularly since, as well - predicting death is a traditional form of astrology and not all contributors to this thread are traditional astrologers.

JMO it's up to the individual astrological practitioner to form an individual decision regarding the morality or immorality of predicting death and whether or not they in particular would do so

btw sourced from online free dictionary:

definition of the word 'morality'

Noun


Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.

Behavior as it is affected by the observation of these principles.


Synonyms
moral - morals - ethics - virtue
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Unread 06-24-2013, 03:49 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

I'd like to know so I can cancel the milk
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Unread 06-24-2013, 06:27 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Jupiter Ascendant, you raise an interesting point about death prediction being an accepted part of Indian astrology.

Intending no disrespect to Indian people, astrologers, or judges, I simply disagree with the practice of forecasting people's death.

Each of us can look at a culture outside of our own, and identify practices that we find disturbing or morally unacceptable. As a dual American-Canadian citizen living in Canada, I am sometimes subjected to extreme anti-Americanism. Without justifying the excesses of the US government, corporations, or popular culture, I accept that other nationals have freedom of speech to criticize my country in its various manifestations. In this same spirit, it is acceptable for me to criticize practices of other countries.

We are always going to be products of our own cultures. There is no way around the problem that sometimes people of different cultures have radically different views of morality. India itself has outlawed practices that were once considered acceptable and normal, such as suttee, child marriage, and forcing daughters into prostitution. Currently India is changing to address problems of violence towards women and the plight of ostracized widows. Today many Indians no longer believe in astrology, Hindu mythology, and arranged marriages based upon horoscopes.

If Indians themselves are changing their beliefs and sometimes criticizing their own traditions, I see no problem in my arguing against death forecasts.

It would be interesting to learn how often the Indian death predictions are correct, and what is the emotional and practical impact on Indian citizens who receive an incorrect death prediction.

While the Indian courts upheld the discipline of astrology as a science, they did not condone astrologers who make false predictions.

http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question...1111941AAQsikM

JA you are right about one thing. We cannot force astrologers to be wise and knowledgeable, or to use common sense or good judgment for the benefit of astrology its reputation.
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Unread 06-24-2013, 07:34 PM
Clinton Soule Clinton Soule is offline
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Waybread stated:

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Clinton, I am happy to discuss the Bible with you, but it would seem like a real hijack of this thread. I am not sure what the Magi of the NT (today, usually understood as Zoroastrian Persians) have to do with death prediction-- the topic of this thread.

If you believe in the Bible, you can get into all kinds of difficulties with this one, as it was a Hellenistic, not Hebrew belief (so far as I know) that the Zoroastrians were astrologers. However, the Greeks viewed them with considerable suspicion, and it from them we get the double meaning of magus/magician: someone versed in occult practices-- which may or may not be beneficent.

You have been citing English translations of the original Greek. I could point to widely used translations that don't say "astrologers." The Greek term is "Magoi"; Magi in Latin. This is where we need to look.
Waybread, unfortunately I'm not well versed in Chaldean as the astrologer Patriarchal grandfather Abraham who is the Ancestor of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. Nor do have I studied Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew, Latin, etc., thus I have to depend upon the various students who passed down astrological data within the Bible, interpreters. Of which in early Europe most of Europe was so uneducated, even if most colleges were of the early Church, the priests within the early Church many times put astrological references within the word as the priests were actual astrologers themselves.

You well know or should if two individuals having fixed signs on the angles and a lot of fixity within their respective maps, like if William F. Lilly were in incarnation, a taurean with possibly an Aquarius rising(according to Deborah Houlding, we do not truly know his chart) that John Frawley also a Sol and Chronor as Lilly definitely had, those two would definitely argue over some issues within astrology even if they agreed with much of the other's methods; just who they are or were in Lilly's case.

Quote:
No doubt someone constructed a horoscope for King David and sincerely believed it to be correct. The notion that we could know the birth date of a tribal leader who lived roughly 3000 to 2800 years ago is not believeable, however. There is a big debate amongst biblical archaeologists currently as to when David might have lived, because the biblical accounts and what is on the ground (or excavated under the ground) do not concur. The Biblical Archaeologist magazine carries some of this debate.
Waybread, I'm ignorant of many things, confused in others, seeking the truth in both 9th house pursuits as Lilly says astrology and religion is of the 9th, but evidently you aren't aware that Solomon, the son of Bathsheba(the adulterous wife and widow of Uriah) wrote at least one book on astrology. Do you think he could have recorded his father's horoscope and that it has been passed down through the centurys?

Waybread, my late wife when I met her told me the time and date of when we met, female's generally remember things like that more than most men unless the husbands are astrologers. I did the event horoscope and noted a trial was in the map from the beginning so I protected myself financially. That was over 20 years ago, but I hid that horoscope from myself, as my attitude was at the time 'I don't want astrology to rule my life I want God to'. Well within that event horoscope it showed her death, the trial exactly, and I even told homocide detectives the date they had of her death was wrong later as that devilish Mars was by transit conjuncting the lord of the house of death of the event chart when the murder occured.

And NO I'm not wishing to Hi-jack the thread either, and my point is if an astro layman comes to me with an exact event time of some venture like when I met my late wife, do I in ethics tell them if I see a death or whatever in the event chart's horoscope?

For after that experience, when I meet a friend, business partner, whatever, I write down the time and encourage all my layman of astrology to do the same, and do the event horoscope, for it's like the Piscean Master pointed out 'whatever is bound on earth is bound in heaven'!

I mean ethicly speaking as Robert Hand states in his youtube do we have to weigh out what we do with morality like sharing our insights?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yWrU4zn6ic


Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Matthew 2:1 Expanded Bible
[ Wise Men Come to Visit Jesus ] ·When [After] Jesus was born in the town of Bethlehem in Judea during the time when Herod was king, some ·wise men [astrologers; magi; C a class of wise men and priests who practiced astrology] from the east came to Jerusalem.

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-...tent?oid=22904

Last edited by Clinton Soule; 06-24-2013 at 08:58 PM.
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Unread 06-24-2013, 08:59 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Hi,

The case in point is that if we advocate that *trying* to predict something so ultimate, on the human plane, is ethical, we will find a thousand reasons to support what we believe in; vice versa, of course, too. I'll make it clear that I belong to the latter school of thought.

The truth is also that death is something the big majority fears, and fears a lot, no matter what we may think and brag. When we fear something, we want to make sure that the thing feared is at bay/ at some distance from us. And, there can never be enough time left- that is the thought we go by.
Some others approach that topic/may want to know out of sheer curiosity, even boredom, and fear may not really be a factor there, as the person might be young and time may seem a given. In another case, fear may not be a factor, even if one is middle-aged or more, as life simply seems satisfying or at least there is a fulfilling/healthy routine/ a sense of fulfillment may prevail. In both such cases, no matter how strong/happy-- thus immunity to fear may be high, the person might be; nonetheless, imagine being confronted by somebody's *possibly* accurate prediction that their time is near. It would change that receiving-party's life, regardless of whether they were expecting to hear that prediction or not, completely regardless of whether they were prepared for it, or not (and you can in the v least of situations be actually prepared for it, as there is always someone/some responsibility 'reason'(able) enough/hope enough to hold you back.

Why will such a prediction (regardless of whether it turns out accurate or not, even more regardless of whether the possible 'accuracy' may be skill-based or chance-based ultimately) change the prediction-receiver's life? Because words have that power in them. Something unsaid always has a certain optimistic hope attached to it.

Something once said, though, takes a certain form, even if only in one's mind. It starts interfering with most of your day's doings. Things/actions/little events that may have an hour ago seemed the most normal/natural, could now be associated with what the receiver has received in the form of a prediction.

Imagine now, if the prediction is off, how ethical is it then to have taken away a lot of *life* from that person's lifetime. (Let this be said in brackets-- just so the focus remains bigger on the off-prediction and its highly-possible consequences and influence on the receiver, that a lot of *life* still gets taken from the whatever life-span remains, even if the prediction made chances to be accurate). No matter how skilled I might be as an astrologer, until yet, no amount of astrological + ethical reasoning, even both combined, can prove it actually ethical enough for me to chance such a prediction. And, for me, this whole issue has nothing to with whether Astrology (regardless trad or un-trad) can actually help accurately predict 'that' or not. It has to do with whether I want to actually 'meddle' with *that issue*, and, moreover, actually take away *life* (look at it in a deeper sense) away from the daily life of a person. My answer, it is too big a risk, even bigger the responsibility towards another person, and nothing can be worth and ethical enough for me as one human being towards another another to say such a possible (accurate or inaccurate) prediction out. If a person did come to me for that, especially out of 'urgency', I would much rather talk and try to psychologically help that person as much as I can, but not try to give them a possible 'deadline'. I hope I don't cross that line.

It is a completely different matter when a prediction turns out true or fails to do so, when that prediction is concerning someone getting a job or even getting pregnant, or even a medical treatment turning out successful. Why? Because there is still a beyond-that prediction and hope. It is not about something so ultimate. And, no, we can hardly argue away the ultimation attached to it, and suggest to only look at death as a transition, or stepping out of one door and through another. No, on a human level, the reality of death is very ultimate. If it weren't the question of ethics would not be related to it in such a big way, for one.

This discussion for me has the least to do with Astrology-practice in relations to such matters in India, or Greece, or in Europe, etc; it has to do with common sense, ethics, and considering of human nature, and then considering the effect and repercussions of such a prediction.

God bless
AQ7
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Unread 06-24-2013, 09:33 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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I'd like to know so I can cancel the milk
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Unread 06-24-2013, 09:53 PM
Clinton Soule Clinton Soule is offline
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Aquarius7000 stated:

Quote:
Imagine now, if the prediction is off, how ethical is it then to have taken away a lot of *life* from that person's lifetime. (Let this be said in brackets-- just so the focus remains bigger on the off-prediction and its highly-possible consequences and influence on the receiver, that a lot of *life* still gets taken from the whatever life-span remains, even if the prediction made chances to be accurate). No matter how skilled I might be as an astrologer, until yet, no amount of astrological + ethical reasoning, even both combined, can prove it actually ethical enough for me to chance such a prediction. And, for me, this whole issue has nothing to with whether Astrology (regardless trad or un-trad) can actually help accurately predict 'that' or not. It has to do with whether I want to actually 'meddle' with *that issue*, and, moreover, actually take away *life* (look at it in a deeper sense) away from the daily life of a person. My answer, it is too big a risk, even bigger the responsibility towards another person, and nothing can be worth and ethical enough for me as one human being towards another another to say such a possible (accurate or inaccurate) prediction out. If a person did come to me for that, especially out of 'urgency', I would much rather talk and try to psychologically help that person as much as I can, but not try to give them a possible 'deadline'. I hope I don't cross that line.
That is why Lilly says '...be reliable for both the art and your own reputation...'

As Heindel stated in his Junior Grade Astrology Course Letters to Students of Spiritual Astrology, Letter Number Nine:

http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/magen305.htm

Quote:
Therefore Moses stood on no holier ground than the astrologer who holds in his hand a horoscope; and I feel that I cannot too often reiterate that there is a very grave responsibility connected with this wonderful privilege of the astrologer, and that it behooves him to live a holy life so that he may be worthy to stand in the sublime presence of the Human Spirit as it is revealed in the natal figure.
I wonder if Max Heindel knew that Moses, raised by Egypt's royalty was an astrologer?

So Yes, Aquarius7000, our verdict is of great consequence!


Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Ecclesiastes 3:1-4 "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: 2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;" (King James Version)

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-...tent?oid=22904

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Unread 06-24-2013, 10:27 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Clinton, if you take a literal translation of the Bible (i.e., the Bible stories literally happened as stated) and accept that the Magi were astrologers, that's fine. I think the back-story is more complex and metaphorical. Each of us would find people who agree and disagree with us. Each of us could cite English translations for or against our perspective. Shall we leave it at that on a thread about death prediction?

With respect to King David, no doubt a sincere astrologer constructed a chart based upon matching up some typical delineations of planets, signs, and houses with biblical descriptions of David's life and character. This doesn't make it accurate.

The idea that a chart might have been constructed 3000 to 2800 years ago and passed down through the ages just doesn't hold up, however. The astrology of that time was based upon omen delineations. It wasn't horoscopic astrology, which wasn't developed in Babylon till around 600 BC. And then, what we have are some archaeological finds of nativities wih lists of planets in signs. We have no idea how the Babylonians actually interpreted them. The Babylonians didn't use houses: that awaited the development of Hellenistic astrology.

Solomon was described as a wise man with vast knowledge. But there was no horoscopic astrology in Israel in his day, just omen-reading. There were no clocks back then, either, so determining somebody's 9th house at that time has to be seen as an interesting exercise in speculation, but not truth.

What I am missing in your posts is an explanation of how these biblical references make an argument for or against death prediction in astrology. I am very sorry to learn that your wife was murdered. That must have been a horrific experience for you. If you believe you did an accurate death prediction for her previously you must be a more skilled astrologer than most.

More to the point, I can look at a death chart or progressions and transits for the time of death, and pretty much make it show me an explanation for the death. Finding what one already believes to be true is called "confirmation bias." The more serious issue is predicting someone else's death in the future, because then I can't use the benefit of hindsight. whether one can do this and whether one should do this.

I don't think the purpose of astrology is to remove uncertainty from our lives. Imagine an astrology that predicted your entire life ahead of you, from the day you were born till the day you died. Would you have any choices in life? If not, what kind of human being would that make you? A pre-programmed robot simply manifesting the program? This gets us into all kinds of causality issues. And religious ones. If you are a Christian you know that Christianity stresses moral choice.

Isn't coping with uncertainty one of life's great lessons? It is character-building to learn how to deal with uncertainty and risk-taking. Do we truly want to give away our autonomy to a Mama or Papa Astrologer who will remove all major decision-making from us, if we ask them to predict every major outcome in our lives?

I am now in my 60s, and I can look back at issues that caused me huge anxiety in the past. My life turned out OK even with a lot of uncertainty and poor choices; and in fact, it is hard to say that if I knew the truth in advance I would have done anything differently.

My parents both died by the time I was 35, for example. Our relationships were strained, yet looking back, there is no way advanced knowledge of their death dates could have altered anything. I tried repeatedly to improve our relationship, but they were both set in their ways and I felt little genuine reciprocity from them.

Shouldn't we always live life as though we and our loved ones might be taken from us at any moment? Shouldn't we have our financial affairs in order as a matter of routine?

There are major issues beyond what I've raised in previous posts, though others have. What about a "self-fulfilling prophecy"? Patients who believe they are doomed have a much poorer end-of-life experience than patients who have some hope. Do you want to be the one to tell a suicidal teenage girl that she will take her own life in 3 months time? If for some reason I wanted a death prediction, would I want one from someone with the inter-personal communication skills of Bob Zemco here? How many astrologers have any education or even compassionate wisdom in end-of-life and grief counseling?

Aquarius7000, I strongly agree with you. I've scoured the Internet in the past for astrological associations' codes of ethics. While very few address death prediction, most of them prohibit their members from unduly frightening the client.

Astrologers are fallible human begins. Astrology is in enough public disrepute as it is. Death-clock astrology is one kind we simply don't need.
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Unread 06-24-2013, 10:35 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Just one more thing-- we've now had some methods put forward by Alice, Bob, and Dr. Farr*; plus claims by other posters here that they can forecast death. (See also Richard Houck's book, or traditional sources of the past 2000 years.)

It would be interesting to set up some anonymous charts and ask the experts to determine whether these people are now alive or dead, and if dead, their time and manner of death.

[*Apparently in progress, and it appears that Dr. Farr does not believe in forecasting death.]
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Last edited by waybread; 06-24-2013 at 10:37 PM.
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Unread 06-24-2013, 11:35 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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J....It would be interesting to set up some anonymous charts and ask the experts to determine whether these people are now alive or dead, and if dead, their time and manner of death.....
How would delineating charts of anonymous people dispose of the issue this thread discusses - i.e. the MORALITY of predicting death?

The issue is not whether it is possible to predict death or not. The issue so far as this specific thread is concerned is whether or not predicting death is moral or immoral

In any event, 'anonymous' charts prove nothing since they cannot be verified i.e. due to their anonymity, one cannot establish satisfactorily whether the person hidden by an 'anonymous' chart 'is now alive or dead, and if dead, their time and manner of death'
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Unread 06-24-2013, 11:36 PM
Clinton Soule Clinton Soule is offline
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Waybread caringly stated:

Quote:
With respect to King David, no doubt a sincere astrologer constructed a chart based upon matching up some typical delineations of planets, signs, and houses with biblical descriptions of David's life and character. This doesn't make it accurate.

The idea that a chart might have been constructed 3000 to 2800 years ago and passed down through the ages just doesn't hold up, however. The astrology of that time was based upon omen delineations. It wasn't horoscopic astrology, which wasn't developed in Babylon till around 600 BC. And then, what we have are some archaeological finds of nativities wih lists of planets in signs. We have no idea how the Babylonians actually interpreted them. The Babylonians didn't use houses: that awaited the development of Hellenistic astrology.
http://www.esotericarchives.com/solo...l2.htm#preface

Evidently from the text above in the first chapter if this text be credible and translated correctly, Solomon, David and Bathsheba's son, the succeeding King of Israel, when talking about hours and the planets in reference to astrology, he may have or definitely did have his Father's horoscope, and could that be why the American Federation of Astrology in Tempe, Az., has a copy of said horoscope?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...2_0_01531.html

Waybread, this is the last I'm going to speak of this via this thread in order Not to detract and hi-jack the thread; with the exception of Biblical references on Pro-astrology at the end of my posts just as you have your references as many do at the end of their respectful posts. If you want to launch another thread about the lack of Biblical reference or justification of astrology or lack of it, I'm willing to play Defense or Prosecution for the sake of the art, it's not about bruising egos in my oppinion. It's about boiling the water to purify the impurities of the confusing and deceptive Piscean age and uplifting astrology into a scientific enlightment of the Aquarian Age.

Waybread states:

Quote:
Shouldn't we always live life as though we and our loved ones might be taken from us at any moment? Shouldn't we have our financial affairs in order as a matter of routine?

There are major issues beyond what I've raised in previous posts, though others have. What about a "self-fulfilling prophecy"? Patients who believe they are doomed have a much poorer end-of-life experience than patients who have some hope. Do you want to be the one to tell a suicidal teenage girl that she will take her own life in 3 months time? If for some reason I wanted a death prediction, would I want one from someone with the inter-personal communication skills of Bob Zemco here? How many astrologers have any education or even compassionate wisdom in end-of-life and grief counseling?
Yes, like when my Mother was diagnosed that she would be dead in one year by the medical profession whom are practicing medicine just as we are practicing astrology, as she was dying of cancer, and I told her not to believe it, stay positive, yet the doctor said no one in the family was facing reality! Even though I saw the death and regeneration, the self destruction of her when Plutoaspected heavily by transit my natal Luna; I suspected the self-destruction which that Outer can and often brings!

If I had known horary then and asked the query would I have told her?

I doubt that I could have even calculated the map, even if Lilly does have those queries recorded, it is a tough call.

Waybread said:

Quote:
...would I want one from someone with the inter-personal communication skills of Bob Zemco here? How many astrologers have any education or even compassionate wisdom ...
We all have our maps and all of us have our own problems just as medical doctors have their own! But shouldn't all of us get over it, and realize we are all related who study astrology, or will our resentments poison us and the other?

Like wise Zen masters have said that parralells Christianity '..If you seek revenge dig two graves..'!

I would like to point out what the great Lioness, Dorothy J. Kovach, host of Angelicus Merlin has taught me as she stated '...every animal and plant on this earth was meant to be here, and that is reflected in the zodiac...'

So shouldn't we in ethics forgive before we symbolicly kill ourself and the other who caused us pain?



Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Genesis 1:14 (ESV)
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-...tent?oid=22904

Last edited by Clinton Soule; 06-24-2013 at 11:48 PM.
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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How would delineating charts of anonymous people dispose of the issue this thread discusses - i.e. the MORALITY of predicting death?

The issue is not whether it is possible to predict death or not. The issue so far as this specific thread is concerned is whether or not predicting death is moral or immoral

In any event, 'anonymous' charts prove nothing since they cannot be verified i.e. due to their anonymity, one cannot establish satisfactorily whether the person hidden by an 'anonymous' chart 'is now alive or dead, and if dead, their time and manner of death'
JA, the people's identity would be revealed and be verifiable after the experiment concluded.

The two issues are actually linked. Would you argue that it was ethical for an astrologer to predict death if his track record was poor? Or if, by promoting death prediction as an acceptable type of astrology, an accurate astrologer-- however inadvertently-- encouraged less skilled or scrupulous astro-novices to think they could or should predict death?
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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It would be interesting to set up some anonymous charts and ask the experts to determine whether these people are now alive or dead, and if dead, their time and manner of death.


I'll look at charts and tell you what I see - so I'm game for this.


  • BUT, I will not do this on someone that is alive, so the person must already be dead.
  • I will also not go through 60+ years of transits so ... my request is that a person is picked and then a 2 1/2 year window of their life is selected. For that period, 4 transits are provided (starting on a 1/1, 7/1, 1/1 and 7/1 in the 2 year window) along with the natal chart and progressions.
  • The person must have either died during that window or is alive.
  • They cannot already be dead when the window is started.
  • No cherry picking of the window - the window should be selected without looking at the transits or the progressions ahead of time to see if it would a "hard case" or "easy case".

I suspect if others are interested they might have their own conditions.
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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JA, the people's identity would be revealed and be verifiable after the experiment concluded.

The two issues are actually linked. Would you argue that it was ethical for an astrologer to predict death if his track record was poor? Or if, by promoting death prediction as an acceptable type of astrology, an accurate astrologer-- however inadvertently-- encouraged less skilled or scrupulous astro-novices to think they could or should predict death?
My opinion is as follows
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In India today as well as in Greece in ancient times, predicting the time of death is not/was not considered an immoral act and in fact was built into cultural norms and values.

In India today, those ancient ultural norms and values in relation to the practice of astrology have remained as is evidenced by the fact that in India today, a High Court has ruled that astrology is defined as a Science - in India, astrologers who can accurately predict death, as well as other life-altering events, are much sought after.

In India, astrologers are not attacked/vilified for their ability to predict a time of death, but appreciated for doing so.

JMO a moral debate, i.e. whether an action is either 'right' or 'wrong' is based on societal standards of 'right' or 'wrong'.


Ancient astrologers, as well as traditional astrologers in past centuries, freely used ancient techniques that predicted death as a matter of course and were free from the possibility of being accused of immorality because it was culturally normal for them to predict death.

Those same techniques from ancient and traditional astrology are in use today – but not by all astrologers.

In fact some astrologers are unaware of how to apply ancient techniques of predicting death due to never having learned how to do that - possibly due to being content with their preferred form of delineation. And that is personal choice. No astrologer is forced to use any technique to predict death if that astrologer does not want to do so. Likewise no astrologer is forced to NOT use any technique to predict death for a client who has requested them to do so. It's simply a matter of individual judgement.


However, there are astrologers who are interested in these ancient techniques and who do use techniques to predict death AND because in many cities cultural norms and values have shifted over the centuries, it is inevitable that there are differences of opinion on this matter.

JMO these differences of opinion are highlighted in particular because today the internet is available in a multitude of cities all over the world and this forum is an example of an internet forum on which people from different cultural norms and values are exchanging opinions. So on this forum it is more than likely there shall be many differences of opinion, simply due to the many different cultural norms and values of the members.

JMO then, the morality or immorality of predicting death is a matter of opinion based on different cultural norms and values therefore – given the multiplicity of norms and values of the various contributors to this interesting topic, it is not surprising that we are having a lively discussion on this thread... particularly since, as well - predicting death is a traditional form of astrology and not all contributors to this thread are traditional astrologers.

JMO it's up to the individual astrological practitioner to form an individual decision regarding the morality or immorality of predicting death and whether or not they in particular would do so

btw sourced from online free dictionary:

definition of the word 'morality'

Noun


Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.

Behavior as it is affected by the observation of these principles.


Synonyms
moral - morals - ethics - virtue
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Clinton I would encourage you to start a new thread on the Bible and astrology or religion and astrology-- maybe transfer some of your recent posts there. I'll be happy to respond on an appropriate thread.

However, near the bottom of your post you raise the issue of doctors with wrong prognoses and diagnoses. We might add to them the problem of meteorologists with incorrect forecasts or stock market analyists with incorrect predictions. These can cause people real money, and in the case of the doctor, patients' health and survival.

I believe your argument is a "two wrongs make a right" tactic. If doctors can ***** up, why expect better of astrologers? The obvious response is not that it is OK for astrologers to give incorrect death predictions, but that some doctors need to improve their diagnostic skills.

Moreover, MDs undergo rigorous training: 4 years undergrad, 4 years med school, internship, residency, and then they must pass their licensing exams. The admissions bar for med school is extremely high. Then if a licensed doctor consistently gives wrong predictions or harms her patients in some way, she can be disciplined by her jurisdiction's medical board, deprived or her license, or sued. As you know, malpractice insurance is so expensive in the US that many doctors (formerly) in high-risk specialties like obstetrics cannot afford to continue with them. The patient, moreover, always has the right to request a second opinion.

Most doctors involved in end-of-life care, so far as I know, give the terminally ill patient a kind of window of life expectency based on the nature of the disease and the record of previous patients with something comparable. When my father got pancreatic cancer he was told he might live as long as 5 years. The fact of his death 18 months after his diagnosis was nevertheless within the predicted window for the nature of this disease. Pancreatic cancer can move even faster than that.

In astrology, we require exactly...... what? of our practitioners. Not even a high school diploma or anything more than the desire to define oneself as an astrologer. There is no way to weed out the problem astrologers.

Moreover, nobody is going to prohibit modern medicine because its success rate is so poor. Despite all of the many problems with modern medicine (some of which I know first-hand,) doctors still save lives. They still give most people better health. The high average life expectancy in much of the developed world is due to the success of medical treatments, not their failures.

I am not making up the stuff about optimistic yet seriously ill patients surviving longer and with better health. This does not mean it is true for any given individual, naturally.
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/0...e-longer/?_r=0
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0303131656.htm
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Last edited by waybread; 06-25-2013 at 01:03 AM.
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

So JA, how would you feel about an Indian astrologer who was repeatedly mistaken in his calculations?
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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JA, the people's identity would be revealed and be verifiable after the experiment concluded.

The two issues are actually linked. Would you argue that it was ethical for an astrologer to predict death if his track record was poor? Or if, by promoting death prediction as an acceptable type of astrology, an accurate astrologer-- however inadvertently-- encouraged less skilled or scrupulous astro-novices to think they could or should predict death?
Anyone may legally, immediately commence astrological chart readings - including prediction of death without any form of astrological tuition.

Is it ethical or moral for any astrologer - whether Indian or Westerner - to predict ANY EVENT?

After all an astrologer could 'inadvertently encourage less skilled or scrupulous astro-novices to think they could or should' predict marriage, child birth, job loss, fame and so on and so forth
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Exactly so, JA. "Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread."

As Aquarius7000 noted, however, death is in a different league from predicting non-terminal life events.
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Hi,
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Originally Posted by Clinton Soule View Post
...We all have our maps and all of us have our own problems just as medical doctors have their own! But shouldn't all of us get over it, and realize we are all related who study astrology, or will our resentments poison us and the other?
Apologies, but as I understand the quoted, comparing doctors and astrologers is very apples and oranges, given the motivation, even responsibility and necessity attached to a doctor diagnosing a disease; and an astrologer chancing a prediction. Would I be able to cure my ailment w/o a doctor's diagnosis. No. Would I be able to continue w/o an astrologer's prediction. Yes. That is how black and white the difference is between the two.

AQ7
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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[*Apparently in progress, and it appears that Dr. Farr does not believe in forecasting death.]
Right-I do NOT believe that any methodology (astrological, cartomantic, I Ching, geomantic) can exactly forecast death (on anything even approaching a reliable basis); the MOST that I DO accept (based on many experiences and some experiments) is that CRITICAL PERIODS, even narrowed to a matter of weeks, CAN BE forecast particularly well by combinations of certain astrological techniques and considerations-whether such citical periods WILL or WON"T result in actual death, however, I do NOT believe can be reliably predicted by any astrological method or combination of methods, known to me.
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Exactly so, JA. "Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread."
Exactly. And although 'Great minds think alike'... 'Fools seldom differ'
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As Aquarius7000 noted, however, death is in a different league from predicting non-terminal life events.
Not necessarily.

For example....

An astrologer may 'predict' the ending of a relationship and cause their client such misery that their client contemplates ending their life
.

Same 'league'
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Unread 06-25-2013, 01:39 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Death prediction is just one of many ways to traumatise friends, family, and clients with astrology.
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

I don't really see any issues with all of this. Maybe the real problem is our Western view on Death. Which is pretty dark and bleak. In the West we tend to ignore death and dying, in fact we cling too much to life. All this clinging to life creates fear and anxiety. I think it would be healthy to learn to let go, to let go of life and accept death as an essential force of life. Therefore, I think it is healthy to deal the death as soon as possible. Death is nothing to fear, in fact it's complete liberation and a natural process, just as giving birth to a baby is.

So if someone wants to know if their chart indicates their death, maybe this information can free them from fear of death and embrace the inevitable. On the other hand, if the person is so fearful of death and seeks confirmation through astrology, I would first explain that death isn't anything to be afraid of. Someone who is terminally ill, may already accepted their fate, and only seek a timeframe through predictions so that may feel somehow comfortable with the information given.

The mind is a powerful apparatus. It manifests what it believes... so if it is given false hope, it might thrive on it and go beyond limitations and predictions or even enforce them. Anyway, unless I was absolutely certain about a prediction I would be careful about it.
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

fifteen, I hear you. But I this is the view of a younger person. I live in a community with a lot of seniors. We moved here 5.5 years ago. In that short time I've known 6 people who have died. I also know seniors coping with cancer and lung disease; or those who have faced the death of siblings and even a daughter.

Death is a fact of life around here.

Having visited the two near-neighbours who died close at hand and having had two babies myself, I can assure you that the process is very different.

One woman wasted away over a period of years, on oxygen for the last couple, as her lung capacity was down around 10%. Breathing and eating were big struggles for her. She was in and out of the hospital frequently. My other neighbour died as the result of the rejection of a transplanted organ. His body was effectively poisoning itself, he had no energy, and he had to undergo frequent transfusions.

An acquaintance who passed of cancer was in very poor health, and then the pain really got to him at the end. Friends who knew him better than we did said he cried like a child, the pain was so bad.

These people knew their ends were coming sooner rather than later. They didn't need an astrologer to mark a date on their calendar, or tell the grandkids when to roll up for the funeral.

I learned something from my neighbours, however, which was what it looks like for a person in pain and infirmity to face death with grace and courage. Hopefully we all get ourselves to that point soon, without waiting for death to force it on us.

Oh, please. Shall we talk about traffic accident victims screaming in pain, trapped in their vehicles? Shall we talk about soldiers getting blown up in battle? These deaths are not always instant. Sometimes they take hours or days. Only a fool wouldn't fear such a death.

I once visited a friend's mother in the hospital. This woman was dying of cancer. She was so frightened of dying in her sleep that she taught herself--in her hospital bed-- to sleep with her eyes open.

Shall I go on with my parents' end-of-life stories? Are you familiar with pancreatic cancer?

I would suggest that anyone with a sentimental view of death volunteer at a hospice or nursing home, so you can see what the end of life is like, first hand.
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