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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 07-02-2019, 02:52 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Hello,

I have ordered three books on traditional astrology or classical astrology as per some recommedations here. Till they arrive I would like to know from western traditional astrology perspective how much fate plays in an individual's life, how much free will one has in one's life?

Greeks seem to have given a lot of importance to fate and its influence on western traditional astrology must have given equal importance to fate (I'm guessing).

Being born in India, my upbringing reeked of karma and fate from childhood that people readily accept their inability to change things and this has bothered me for a very long time. I'm curious about what ancient astrologers have to say.

Thanks
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Unread 07-02-2019, 03:57 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

There is a saying that The stars impel, they don't compel.
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Unread 07-02-2019, 04:57 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
There is a saying that The stars impel, they don't compel.
Yes, the proverbial statement, but I wonder how much of it is actually true. I think one would agree that when an individual starts feeling dissatisfied with life then s/he would start asking questions like - is there is a free will? why I'm unable to enjoy more of life? To me it is a clear indicator that the individual is facing a force (fate) that is pushing him/her to rise above the challenge. Some overcome (fate) while some succumb to it and wither away, sort of like natural selection.

I want to understand from ancient astrology's perspective why some people deal with so much of fate while some just a little?

To give you an example from astrology (modern & vedic), numerology, palmisty I'm convinced Saturn is out there to get me so to speak. So I did a lot of research on the planet and I'm disappointed that Marsilio Ficino painted an optimistic picture of Saturn of course besides acknowledging the melancholia. To me this is no different than justifying your bad life similar to advocating karma.

So, now I'm on a quest to understand going all the way back.


Last edited by lostinstars; 07-02-2019 at 05:14 PM.
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Unread 07-12-2019, 05:28 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
Yes, the proverbial statement, but I wonder how much of it is actually true. I think one would agree that when an individual starts feeling dissatisfied with life then s/he would start asking questions like - is there is a free will? why I'm unable to enjoy more of life? To me it is a clear indicator that the individual is facing a force (fate) that is pushing him/her to rise above the challenge. Some overcome (fate) while some succumb to it and wither away, sort of like natural selection.

I want to understand from ancient astrology's perspective why some people deal with so much of fate while some just a little?

To give you an example from astrology (modern & vedic), numerology, palmisty I'm convinced Saturn is out there to get me so to speak. So I did a lot of research on the planet and I'm disappointed that Marsilio Ficino painted an optimistic picture of Saturn of course besides acknowledging the melancholia. To me this is no different than justifying your bad life similar to advocating karma.

So, now I'm on a quest to understand going all the way back.

The following is a quote from WEBINAR

The Astrological Study of Dignity and Debility – CHARLES OBERT

'....When evaluating a chart,
evaluating the location and natures of the planets
gives information
on which areas of life the good or ill fortune will most likely be found...'
https://vimeo.com/286369865
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Unread 07-12-2019, 05:39 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Thanks JUPITERASC for the podcast. Once I'm done reading the book will start the podcast.
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Unread 07-12-2019, 05:51 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post

Thanks JUPITERASC for the podcast.
Once I'm done reading the book will start the podcast.

CHARLES OBERTS vimeo WEBINAR provides addtional information
on Dignity and Debility

also
OMNISPHERICUS has not commented for some time
but
did leave us with a treasure-trove of useful information on his methodology
which involves a mix of traditional Medieval and Hellenistic
for example
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post


https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...ad.php?t=48463


The type of Delineation I'm giving here is a mix of medieval techniques with those of the Hellenistic authors.

Here are some tips for delineating the chart in this manner.

1. The good or bad signified by a house emanates from the ruler of the house.
This is the basic rule. The ruler of the house is giver of the material of the house.

Zoller gives the example of his own chart where he has Combusted Mercury in 11th, ruler of 4th. He comments that this kind of placement brings adversity to ones home and dwellings.

2. Benefit in one area of life can be produced by adversity, or even conflict, in another.

Again Zoller gives example from his own chart.
Jupiter in 9th in Scorpio disposited from Mars in 11th: Wisdom coming from conflicts.

3. The delineation tells you the what. The
predictive techniques tell you the when.


4. The Elemental Quality of the Sign of the Ascendant is showing the type of Primary Motivation of the native.
Fire goes for freedom of action and power.
Air goes for freedom of expression and movement.
The Water signs need emotional security
Earth signs need physical security.

The person with masculine Ascendant (or majority of planets in masculine signs) speaks in active terms: "I did this to that person".
The person with feminine sign on Ascendant or majority planets in feminine signs, speaks in passive terms: "This happened to me".

The Feminine signs seek advice because they need second hand in their decisions, in fact they want someone else to make the decision for them.
Masculine signs seek advice because they have many options so they are not sure which option is better.

Cardinal signs are most active. Cardinal water and earth (Cancer and Capricorn) are working great amount of actions but in circumstances and environment structured already by someone else.
Libra and Aries (Cardinal masculine) are working great in any kind of circumstances.

Fixed signs are centripetal, they need center. They are very successful in Acquisations.
Taurus hoards money.
Leo hoards glory and honor.
Scorpio hoards the hidden things, hidden motivations of other people, seek energy and vitality.
Aquarius hoards Knowledge.

Mutable signs vacillate between the two: cardinal and fixed.

5. Examine the planets which most closely aspects the Ascendant. These planets add to the whole Primary Motivation thing.

Planets aspecting the Ascendant represent powers the native can use in the world.

The aspecting planet's local determination will be added to the Primary
Motivation.
(Venus in 5th will add love for pleasure and entertainment to the native's Primary Motivation).

The aspect between the aspecting planet and the Ascendant tells you how the being of the planet and its local determination are linked.

6. The Ruler of the Ascendant by its house position tells you where (what area of life) the native will seek to realize his/her Primary Motivation.

Look also at all 5 dignity rulers in the place of the ASC. The Almuten and Exalted ruler are lamost as significant as the domicile ruler (sometimes even more).

The Ruler of the Ascendant (as well as the other rulers) by its nature and zodiacal state shows the methods the native will use and the success or failure of the drive.

This is great quote by Zoller:


Lets assume that a person has Cancer on the Ascendant,
The primary motivation of this person is the Need for Emotional Security.
The ruler/s of the Ascendant and their zodiacal and local state will determine How would this be achieved.

Lets assume Moon on IC in Libra Peregrine.
Jupiter in 6th (but 7th sign!) in Capricorn.
Venus in Sag in 6th - Peregrine.
Mars in Scorpio in 4th (but 5th sign!)
Saturn (term ruler) is in 5th Scorpio Peregrine.

We can see that Moon is strong by accident (being on angle), so we can judge first from there.
The need for Emotional Security this person would seek in the home, in the place of the father. The father would be the means through which this person would try to achieve the Emotional Security.
Jupiter - the exalted ruler is weak by being cadent, Venus too. They can't produce much in giving the emotional security this person seeks.
Jupiter by universal means suggest that the native would seek wisdom, religion (and the person actually did!) but by being cadent and in fall, it can't productively give what it promise.
Mars is in 4/5th and is strong by zodiacal state, but is out of sect malefic.
It would try to win competitions, but also with Saturn in 5th will give great deal of creativity. Mars rules the 10th - creativity and looking for career, would also give some amount of emotional security for this person. But by being square with Sun in 7th it means that it will have opposition from authorities and other people in general.

The primary motivation is great deal of what we unconsciously and often consciously seek for. Once that motivation is broken or someone interrupt it, we seek to fix that in the every possible way we can do that.

I will continue with the tips in my next post.

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Unread 07-02-2019, 04:34 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

There's a whole lot that falls between fate and the individual free will: ecology, political circumstances, culture, social relationships, theology, family, economy. I'm NOT a traditional astrologer, but it's my impression that many of the intermediaries I've listed here can themselves be dealt with in traditional astrology. A nation has a chart, a company has a chart, a marriage, etc. So my inclination would be to say that while both fate and free will are operative in a person's life and can be assessed astrologically, the full answer to the question cannot be seen in an individual chart.
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Unread 07-02-2019, 05:06 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
There's a whole lot that falls between fate and the individual free will: ecology, political circumstances, culture, social relationships, theology, family, economy. I'm NOT a traditional astrologer, but it's my impression that many of the intermediaries I've listed here can themselves be dealt with in traditional astrology. A nation has a chart, a company has a chart, a marriage, etc. So my inclination would be to say that while both fate and free will are operative in a person's life and can be assessed astrologically, the full answer to the question cannot be seen in an individual chart.

May be you are right. But is it not possible to judge from dignities of planets?

Last edited by lostinstars; 07-02-2019 at 05:08 PM.
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Unread 07-12-2019, 04:48 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

For anyone who may be interested in this topic, in the book 'Introduction to Traditional Astrology by Charles Obert', the author compares traditional astrology v/s modern astrology. Traditional astrology is more fate driven, less free willed and trying to find your place in the cosmos.
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Unread 07-12-2019, 05:16 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
There's a whole lot that falls between fate and the individual free will: ecology, political circumstances, culture, social relationships, theology, family, economy.

I'm NOT a traditional astrologer,

but it's my impression that many of the intermediaries I've listed here can themselves be dealt with in traditional astrology. A nation has a chart, a company has a chart, a marriage, etc. So my inclination would be to say that while both fate and free will are operative in a person's life and can be assessed astrologically, the full answer to the question cannot be seen in an individual chart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post


But is it not possible to judge from dignities of planets?


For detailed information of dignities of planets:

video recording episode 156 of The Astrology Podcast
CHARLES OBERT discusses essential dignities and debilities
and how they are used to determine the condition of a planet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVz6xT7yHDs
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Unread 07-12-2019, 05:59 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

What Iíve learnt is you use the energy in your chart in different ways. So if it doesnít work down one path change it to another so you use it to your advantage! There is free will however using the free will incorrectly brings consequences. Thatís life. The Saturn life 😍🌟
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Unread 07-13-2019, 03:29 AM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hkk View Post
What Iíve learnt is you use the energy in your chart in different ways. So if it doesnít work down one path change it to another so you use it to your advantage! There is free will however using the free will incorrectly brings consequences. Thatís life. The Saturn life 😍🌟

Can you give an example? I know everyone has free will to be a murderer or a saint but the motivation can only push an individual to become something the chart shows.


And care to explain what is Saturn life?
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Unread 07-13-2019, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
Can you give an example? I know everyone has free will to be a murderer or a saint but the motivation can only push an individual to become something the chart shows.


And care to explain what is Saturn life?
I have Saturn in my first house and have learnt to control my rebellious side in a healthier way as if I donít saturn punishes me eg if I have fun against the rules at day work then I get caught out by the senior management and get in trouble 😬. However if I have fun within the boundaries and rules then I get rewarded eg again at work not going out and breaking rules but still have fun my work gets better and I get promoted! 😇 this is the Saturn life as some of my friends eg Aquarius friend she can be as naughty as she likes and she will get promoted and never get caught. I have to use my Saturn to my advantage using the rules. RULES AND REGULATIONS! And everything goes well for me and in a crazy way I enjoy all these rules lmao 😆
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Unread 07-14-2019, 03:56 AM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

The ancient Greeks who developed horoscopic astrology were fatalists. They came from a mythological tradition of the Three Fates deciding people's lives; and then the Stoic philosophy was very popular back then.

However, fatalism is not necessary to the study and practice of traditional astrology. It's collateral. In Europe during the Middle Ages, a lot of Catholics picked up astrology and even taught it in the major universities. The church always taught that people have moral choice ("free will.")

I do mostly modern astrology but I wanted to learn enough traditional western astrology to understand it and practice a simplified version of it in horary astrology. I believe in a choice-centered astrology. Each planet, sign, and house has multiple interpretations that are all consistent with the core meanings. We get to choose empowering or disempowering interpretations.

On the other hand, sometimes a little fatalism is comforting. When life hands us disappointments, we can always say they weren't our fault. They were in our stars.
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Unread 07-14-2019, 04:01 AM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

[deleted reference to Modern Astrology on Traditional Astrology Forum - Moderator]

I view Saturn as my wisest teacher. His lessons are perseverance, hard work, deferred gratification, and frugality. These don't sound like a lot of fun, but they are extremely valuable.
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Last edited by wilsontc; 07-14-2019 at 01:04 PM.
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Unread 07-14-2019, 11:59 AM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hkk View Post
I have Saturn in my first house and have learnt to control my rebellious side in a healthier way as if I donít saturn punishes me eg if I have fun against the rules at day work then I get caught out by the senior management and get in trouble 😬. However if I have fun within the boundaries and rules then I get rewarded eg again at work not going out and breaking rules but still have fun my work gets better and I get promoted! 😇 this is the Saturn life as some of my friends eg Aquarius friend she can be as naughty as she likes and she will get promoted and never get caught. I have to use my Saturn to my advantage using the rules. RULES AND REGULATIONS! And everything goes well for me and in a crazy way I enjoy all these rules lmao 😆
Thanks, donít take this the wrong way but Iím tired of people portraying Saturn rewards efforts, delays but never denies yadda yadda yadda. This seems to be definitely the work of modern esoteric astrologers who sprayed some new age ideas from Ď60s and Ď70s. I too have Saturn in the first house and also conj. Asc and it happens to the strongest planet as per some calculations and methods and chart ruler as per some other method. Whatever be the case I have been seeing the planetís action in my life for over 13 years now straight. I have only experienced what Saturn is known for, the greater malefic. No matter how hard I try to make things happen and stay positive things just donít work out. So I switched sides from modern astrology to traditional astrology. At least traditional astrology does not sugar coat things and does not mislead people.

Quote:
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On the other hand, sometimes a little fatalism is comforting. When life hands us disappointments, we can always say they weren't our fault. They were in our stars.
May be but I donít like to blame fate, I just want to know when do I stop working for things hoping things would improve?
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Unread 07-14-2019, 05:30 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post

Being born in India, my upbringing reeked of karma and fate from childhood that people readily accept their inability to change things and this has bothered me for a very long time. I'm curious about what ancient astrologers have to say.

Thanks
and also

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
May be but I don’t like to blame fate, I just want to know when do I stop working for things hoping things would improve?
I am curious where the assumption comes from thattraditional astrology would be more likely to suggest that you can 'stop working for things' ? [deleted "modern astrology" reference - Moderator]

Last edited by wilsontc; 07-15-2019 at 12:13 PM.
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Unread 07-15-2019, 09:05 AM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

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Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
and also
I am curious where the assumption comes from that either modern astrology or traditional astrology would be more likely to suggest that you can 'stop working for things' ?
Answering this would need to bring in modern western and vedic astrologies. So I created a new thread here.

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...278#post986278


Quote:
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Saturn doesn't ask you to put on a happy face. Saturn is all about hard work, getting by with very little, and persistence. Because Saturn rules old age, he does tend to reward his apt pupils later in life.

Maybe changing your goals would be beneficial?

The kind of astrology I am not meant to mention on this thread is neither inherently "sugar coating" or "misleading" any more than any other kind of astrology. It depends upon the practitioner. The old traditional astrologers had a pretty gloomy view of human nature so far as Saturn is concerned that arguably went too far the other way.

I think that temperament suits me as I too have gloomy view of the human nature and life in general . Don't you think my own personal experience as validated by traditional astrology is more apt for me at least?

Edit: Feel free to provide your persepective on the link I gave above. I may be harsh on modern astrology but I'm no way interested in proving which system is better but I'm very critical of people who think they are experts and mislead others intentionally or unintentionally which is a typical new age thing. So, when I have confusion or am misled, I go to the source and validate myself.

Last edited by lostinstars; 07-15-2019 at 04:34 PM.
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Unread 07-15-2019, 12:18 PM
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no need to justify questions, to All

All,

There is NO need for posters to justify their questions as being relevant to Traditional astrology. All that needs to happen is ALL posters need to mention ONLY traditional astrology or NO astrological traditions in their posts. The posters question or statement will then be taken as a question or statement about TRADITIONAL astrological methods which others are free to discuss. However any mention of planets BEYOND Saturn belong in the Modern Astrology or Natal Astrology Forums.

Free to question,

Tim
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Unread 07-16-2019, 02:06 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

The study of fortune and destiny in the chart

has been recovered

from the works of Vettius Valens.
We consult the second century astrologer
to return to an astrology not known since his time.
working within a deterministic system
we are seeking to be privy to the inscrutable workings of Fate
we may wish to reject this idea
as insufficiently allowing us
to properly assign "Free Will" to our ego nature.
Ironically, this system is useful for also pointing out
how the Ego can prevent a more fortunate fate from occurring.
In other words, the system of these five additional, calculated "lots"
creates an astrological universe of its own.
It reveals a hidden aspect of the chart, our own role in it
and what indicators we must follow in order to fulfill our destiny.

FREE pdf
THE FIVE HIDDEN PILLARS OF FATE
https://www.scribd.com/doc/6956746/F...y-in-Astrology
©2007 Antoine Garth, All Rights Reserved
Antoine Garth, astrologer
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Unread 07-16-2019, 02:41 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Links To a Series of Threads generously provided by petosiris

INTRODUCTION TO HELLENISTIC ASTROLOGY Part One - Zodiac
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121654

INTRODUCTION TO HELLENISTIC ASTROLOGY Part Two -Seven Stars
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121671

INTRODUCTION TO HELLENISTIC ASTROLOGY Part THREE - Theoretical Consideration
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121676

INTRODUCTION TO HELLENISTIC ASTROLOGY Part Four - Nativities
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121677
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Unread 07-14-2019, 05:46 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Culpeper infrequently posts
but did make the following useful comment
on topic for this thread

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Originally Posted by Culpeper View Post


It is difficult to know what most astrologers believe about any particular idea. There is no paradigm enforced by academia because astrology, inspite of its ancient roots, is not accepted at all by the modern establishment. Astrologers are free and on their own.

In the ancient world reincarnation was taught by Pythagoras and Plato among others. Some souls could choose their lives, but others could not. Fate and destiny ruled the lives of men, but fate was not absolute: If one were to study philosophy the tyranny of fate could be overcome.

The more I study astrology the more I see its influence in peoples lives. It is often most visible in celebrity charts. I was just reading an article on Mussolini in Today's Astrologer. He was very successful until his progressed planets began to go retrograde. His popularity began to fade, then he was forced to resign and was soon killed. The philosophers would say that since he killed millions during his life, that this contributed to his harsh destiny.

However, if someone studies astrology or has a good astrologer, their fate may also be controlled. The natal chart is a map of life. It shows what difficulties may be expected and how to attain success even with weak planets. Celebrities often secretly receive astrological advice. If that is the case, we often cannot see the progress of their lives in their charts. They have left that behind. President R. Reagan had astrological advice. And according to published documents I have, so does B. Obama. This may account for his winning the presidential election even though his tenth house is much weaker than the tenth of J. McCain.

Therefore, fate is not absolute. Astrology can help anyone find their way to a happy destiny.
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Unread 07-14-2019, 05:48 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

tsmall, a traditional astrologer states:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post


the certainty that things will happen in our lives over which we have no control, therefore no free will.

Let's take for example a child who develops an aggressive form of brain cancer at 20 months of age. Do you suppose she has free will in the matter? Do you suppose her parents have free will in this circumstance to direct the physical, real life course of events which are certain to follow? Further, do you believe that the cancer can be found in the natal charts of the daughter and parents? Or at the very least that the loss of a child should show in the parents' charts?

I do not believe that fate = karma. They are two separate concepts. I also believe that the birth chart can be read from two distinct perspectives. The first is the physical reality of the set of circumstances with which the native will be presented, and the second is how the native will internally react to those circumstances.

In the case of my lousy 8th house, it is not that I have bad relationships. On the contrary, the ruler of my 7th house is exalted in the 4th. Also, the 7th is not just personal/romantic relationships, but encompasses business partnerships and open enemies. Along those lines the 8th is many things, not the least of them the house we look to which will show the physical/material support for the 7th. So the 7th is good, but the 8th is lacking. Reading the whole chart would show that my fate is to be highly concerned and disappointed with the 8th which could (and almost did) cause me to reject the 7th. Unless I work with my fate but understanding it in order to fully realize the potential of the 7th.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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Unread 07-14-2019, 07:43 PM
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Re: Fate vs Free will in classical astrology

Read Manilius (1st century) for one ancient astrologer's view, which matches my own.
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