Mixed Message? "Balance?": Nodes in Opposing Houses and Signs.
- Thread starter Birch Dragon
- Start date
Frisiangal
Well-known member
Hi B.D.
I hope you are still reading A.W.
(Edit: See you are!)
Two attempts to post a reply to your query got lost in the ether when submitting them. Maybe something somewehere is trying to intervene, so my stubborn side will attempt to keep this short
.
I compare the nodal axis with a train journey from A to B. The 'baggage' the traveller takes for the journey is in a perhaps battered suitcase from the accumulation of past experiences that may nor may no longer be of necessity for the current journey. The stations are the circumstances of life through which one passes and can choose whether or not to stop on the way, against a scenic background that turns from a familiar zone that feels comfortable (Cancer) to the unknown. Baggage can be discarded (who needs open sandals in the Arctic region?), whilst the parka may be worth keeping as outer protection (Capricorn) against the change of climate.
There is more to the nodal axis than simply one straight path from A to B because there is so much one can take in on the way. Stops, starts, changes in route, meanderings from the original path, are all part of the journey. Time is the driver of each personal journey towards the current destination.
Your current difficulty in understanding the nodes could be that you are treating sign and house as representing the same meaning. They don't.
A house is a zone, a station of life; a sign is the conditions of the background scenery necessary to pass through them. Cancer does it through the imagination drawn from feelings, Capricorn does it through the physical structure of manifestation.
The 4th house refers to the source into which the individual is born; the home roots of personal, tribal, clan heritage and its effects upon the individual.
The 10th house is representative of the individual's effect in and upon the outer world.
You wrote:
Through the one you can find anaswers to, and for, the other.
Professorship/seriousness = Saturn; communication = through Gemini 10th house.
studying, teaching, writing = Gemini-Sagittarius axis,
manifested civilisations = Capricorn,
heritage from home roots = 4th house,
Career/outer life = 10th house.
Personally, I do not think that 'What does it all mean?' applies to the nodal axis, and especially not to Cancer-Capricorn. 'Meaning to life' would appear to fall under the realm of the 9th house, which takes in everything from superstition to Walhalla. To find meaning, one needs to gain understanding, which brings in the function of Jupiter. The reasoning power is what is said to separate man from beast; the passage from 8th to 9th house realm. Yet to reach Jupiter, one has to go through the motions of Moon, Mercury, Venus and Mars first.
How can one otherwise understand and find meaning (mutable signs/cross), except through knowledge gained during the station stops made on life's journey?
Saturn and its ruling sign follow. Using traditional astrology, 'ancient civilisations' fall under Aquarius, which is also ruled by Saturn. The influence of digging up that which was never actually lost....just eroded through time.
Phew! Lots to ponder and expand upon, especially if and when the study of the human experience through conditioning (Moon and Saturn) applies personally as well.
Further edit: From chart; the astrological point Black Moon Lilith ('inner child influence' upon life) is in cultural Sagittarius. Where else could it have been?!!
I hope you are still reading A.W.
(Edit: See you are!)Two attempts to post a reply to your query got lost in the ether when submitting them. Maybe something somewehere is trying to intervene, so my stubborn side will attempt to keep this short
.I compare the nodal axis with a train journey from A to B. The 'baggage' the traveller takes for the journey is in a perhaps battered suitcase from the accumulation of past experiences that may nor may no longer be of necessity for the current journey. The stations are the circumstances of life through which one passes and can choose whether or not to stop on the way, against a scenic background that turns from a familiar zone that feels comfortable (Cancer) to the unknown. Baggage can be discarded (who needs open sandals in the Arctic region?), whilst the parka may be worth keeping as outer protection (Capricorn) against the change of climate.
There is more to the nodal axis than simply one straight path from A to B because there is so much one can take in on the way. Stops, starts, changes in route, meanderings from the original path, are all part of the journey. Time is the driver of each personal journey towards the current destination.
Your current difficulty in understanding the nodes could be that you are treating sign and house as representing the same meaning. They don't.
A house is a zone, a station of life; a sign is the conditions of the background scenery necessary to pass through them. Cancer does it through the imagination drawn from feelings, Capricorn does it through the physical structure of manifestation.
The 4th house refers to the source into which the individual is born; the home roots of personal, tribal, clan heritage and its effects upon the individual.
The 10th house is representative of the individual's effect in and upon the outer world.
You wrote:
There is much more to the nodal axis, yet I think your words here describe not only your professional but your personal ongoing journey very well.
Through the one you can find anaswers to, and for, the other.
Professorship/seriousness = Saturn; communication = through Gemini 10th house.
studying, teaching, writing = Gemini-Sagittarius axis,
manifested civilisations = Capricorn,
heritage from home roots = 4th house,
Career/outer life = 10th house.
Personally, I do not think that 'What does it all mean?' applies to the nodal axis, and especially not to Cancer-Capricorn. 'Meaning to life' would appear to fall under the realm of the 9th house, which takes in everything from superstition to Walhalla. To find meaning, one needs to gain understanding, which brings in the function of Jupiter. The reasoning power is what is said to separate man from beast; the passage from 8th to 9th house realm. Yet to reach Jupiter, one has to go through the motions of Moon, Mercury, Venus and Mars first.
How can one otherwise understand and find meaning (mutable signs/cross), except through knowledge gained during the station stops made on life's journey?
Saturn and its ruling sign follow. Using traditional astrology, 'ancient civilisations' fall under Aquarius, which is also ruled by Saturn. The influence of digging up that which was never actually lost....just eroded through time.
Phew! Lots to ponder and expand upon, especially if and when the study of the human experience through conditioning (Moon and Saturn) applies personally as well.
Further edit: From chart; the astrological point Black Moon Lilith ('inner child influence' upon life) is in cultural Sagittarius. Where else could it have been?!!
Last edited:
I use chart pattern/structure as a basic and primary tool for looking at the chart as a whole.
Your chart has a clear pattern, an interesting and well-defined structure.
Note how all planets are contained within two-thirds of the sky, with one-third empty. If the sky is turned clockwise (diurnal motion -- primum mobile), the first planet to rise (in the pattern as a whole) is Pluto. Pluto therefore rises to special power in the chart, and influences every facet of life. He comes to High Focus. A good keyword for Pluto when thus empowered is "Transcendant." (Use the dictionary, an excellent astrologicial text.)
You will see charts in which one-third or one-half of the sky is occupied, and the planet occupying this "Leading" position by diurnal motion rises to High Focus, becomes more than itself. This is also true of charts where nine planets occupy one-half (or less) of the sky, with one planet standing off against them, separated from the main group by at least 70 degrees (a sextile, with 10-degree orb).
Your chart pattern is commonly called Locomotive (refers to the old steam engine, whose drive wheels had extra steel opposing the drive-point as a counter-weight). This chart pattern is "driving, and driven." Very dynamic, much concerned with practical accomplishment, impersonal. This pattern, based on the trine aspect, is a pattern of momentum and builds on itself. It is an ambitious pattern. (Horoscope patterns are patterns of personality.) Pluto shows how you enter into experience, and seek to excel in everything you do (a trademark of your personality.)..the danger being that you may tend to overstep limits, be excessive. Saturn is the trailing planet, and shows how you finish things up, assimilate them. The bounds of the pattern are in Air, and five planets occupy this element and form a grand trine (slightly askew); a preponderance.
Within the overall pattern (whatever it may be in each unique chart) there is an internal structure. Your chart is notable for the angular T-square in Common signs, focused on Mercury at the cusp of the 7th, who also happens to be lord of the horoscope, but is doubly debilitated in Pisces. He is also dispositor of Saturn (receives him) and the two are in partile square ...and Neptune, who participates from the 4th cusp has affinity with Pisces (See how this all ties together?, how these planets are interrelated above and beyond the T-square itself). The dreamy,visionary square of Neptune to Mercury in Pisces finishes things up (Saturn) by bringing the dream to reality; that is the potential. Saturn stands above Neptune.
And then there is the massive opposition (fanhandle formation, again a focus on Pluto) between the agonizing Moon (she is near immolation in the sun and combust), Venus and Sun and Pluto, from the 8th House Aries. Both Lights in the 8th (a Venus sandwich)...a seeker, intent on seeing beyond the veil...walks where angels fear to tread.
I am not going to interpret the chart. That's your job. But hope this is helpful in "seeing" the chart as a whole. This is a powerful chart, highly energetic and determined to overcome. Don't overlook Mars.
Your chart has a clear pattern, an interesting and well-defined structure.
Note how all planets are contained within two-thirds of the sky, with one-third empty. If the sky is turned clockwise (diurnal motion -- primum mobile), the first planet to rise (in the pattern as a whole) is Pluto. Pluto therefore rises to special power in the chart, and influences every facet of life. He comes to High Focus. A good keyword for Pluto when thus empowered is "Transcendant." (Use the dictionary, an excellent astrologicial text.)
You will see charts in which one-third or one-half of the sky is occupied, and the planet occupying this "Leading" position by diurnal motion rises to High Focus, becomes more than itself. This is also true of charts where nine planets occupy one-half (or less) of the sky, with one planet standing off against them, separated from the main group by at least 70 degrees (a sextile, with 10-degree orb).
Your chart pattern is commonly called Locomotive (refers to the old steam engine, whose drive wheels had extra steel opposing the drive-point as a counter-weight). This chart pattern is "driving, and driven." Very dynamic, much concerned with practical accomplishment, impersonal. This pattern, based on the trine aspect, is a pattern of momentum and builds on itself. It is an ambitious pattern. (Horoscope patterns are patterns of personality.) Pluto shows how you enter into experience, and seek to excel in everything you do (a trademark of your personality.)..the danger being that you may tend to overstep limits, be excessive. Saturn is the trailing planet, and shows how you finish things up, assimilate them. The bounds of the pattern are in Air, and five planets occupy this element and form a grand trine (slightly askew); a preponderance.
Within the overall pattern (whatever it may be in each unique chart) there is an internal structure. Your chart is notable for the angular T-square in Common signs, focused on Mercury at the cusp of the 7th, who also happens to be lord of the horoscope, but is doubly debilitated in Pisces. He is also dispositor of Saturn (receives him) and the two are in partile square ...and Neptune, who participates from the 4th cusp has affinity with Pisces (See how this all ties together?, how these planets are interrelated above and beyond the T-square itself). The dreamy,visionary square of Neptune to Mercury in Pisces finishes things up (Saturn) by bringing the dream to reality; that is the potential. Saturn stands above Neptune.
And then there is the massive opposition (fanhandle formation, again a focus on Pluto) between the agonizing Moon (she is near immolation in the sun and combust), Venus and Sun and Pluto, from the 8th House Aries. Both Lights in the 8th (a Venus sandwich)...a seeker, intent on seeing beyond the veil...walks where angels fear to tread.
I am not going to interpret the chart. That's your job. But hope this is helpful in "seeing" the chart as a whole. This is a powerful chart, highly energetic and determined to overcome. Don't overlook Mars.
poyi
Premium Member
It might be off topic cause nothing about the nodes caught my attention. When I first looked at your chart. I can't keep my eye off the Sun conjuncts Chiron, combusted Venus and Moon all in 8th house, as greybeard noticed not to over look Mars. Mars conjuncts Jupiter placed in 5th rules over your Sun, Venus and Moon. Combusted Venus rules over 2nd, 9th, combusted moon ruling 11th house.
The traditional ruler Saturn in Gemini of 5th cusp Capricorn as well as the Aquarius Mars & Jupiter is most elevated. Saturn is ruled by Mercury in Pisces supposed to be in it fall but at angular DC, ruler of the AC, the traditional ruler of Pisces Jupiter in Aquarius, modern as Neptune Rx also at angular directly opposed Saturn by progression/transit opposition was once perfected.
I want to take a lucky guess as for entertainment purposes.
Your 2nd house, your money source, Libra, Venus combusted placed in 8th in her detriment, Mars placed in the house of fun and speculation, Saturn in Gemini placed in 10th, Mercury in Pisces his fall placed in 7th as the ruler of the AC/MC. I would interpret your work to be involving with managing other people (clients) resources through communication, formal papers, through speculation you ruled over the resources, mostly related to a large group of people (Moon in 8th ruler of the 11th sextile Mars & Jupiter ruler of the 4th, can be properties or home loan or mortgage, interest rate some kind gained through other people resources or debt). If we look at the modern ruler of 6th every day routine, Uranus Rx placed in 2nd, directly involving earning and liquid cash while the 2nd house ruler placed in 8th. Let me know if I made you laughed or shocked.
The traditional ruler Saturn in Gemini of 5th cusp Capricorn as well as the Aquarius Mars & Jupiter is most elevated. Saturn is ruled by Mercury in Pisces supposed to be in it fall but at angular DC, ruler of the AC, the traditional ruler of Pisces Jupiter in Aquarius, modern as Neptune Rx also at angular directly opposed Saturn by progression/transit opposition was once perfected.
I want to take a lucky guess as for entertainment purposes
.Your 2nd house, your money source, Libra, Venus combusted placed in 8th in her detriment, Mars placed in the house of fun and speculation, Saturn in Gemini placed in 10th, Mercury in Pisces his fall placed in 7th as the ruler of the AC/MC. I would interpret your work to be involving with managing other people (clients) resources through communication, formal papers, through speculation you ruled over the resources, mostly related to a large group of people (Moon in 8th ruler of the 11th sextile Mars & Jupiter ruler of the 4th, can be properties or home loan or mortgage, interest rate some kind gained through other people resources or debt). If we look at the modern ruler of 6th every day routine, Uranus Rx placed in 2nd, directly involving earning and liquid cash while the 2nd house ruler placed in 8th. Let me know if I made you laughed or shocked.
kimbermoon
Well-known member
birch dragon: thanks for posting the chart:
The Nodal axis:
Now we see that the axis also has the Sun and Venus intersecting in Aries at the midpoint; in the 8th H no less. My Sun also falls in the 8th....seems to be a situation where we have close encounters with death and separations in life which truly serve to mess with the psyche, and at some point later, we have to come to terms with by integrating the knowledge learned from the past on a conscious level and find ways to balance that out.
We also note that your 8th is loaded, with only Uranus to challenge it; right there ; upset and instability; the unexpected need for early independence. As such with Sagittarius governing the 4th H of roots and foundation, you were set up to be the wanderer and the nomad. Fortunately the Sun/Venus are assisted by positive connections with Saturn and Mars/Jupiter. That particular trio should be delineated on it's own. [by sign, house and rulership] and then integrated into the whole. Where does the Moon send it's natural domestic energies?
Since your emotional weighting is way low in your chart, you have allowed yourself to learn to strictly control your emotions, which in turn gave you the impetus to just move on and develop independently. A focus on all that Aries energy shows the ability to move ahead and be the leader of your own life. That then becomes the focus of your Nodal axis; you have to know where you have been before you know where you are going.
The aspects of the stellium in particular then become important to solving the riddle.
The emphasis on your fire and water show that you naturally turn your focus onto socialization and inspired personal expression, rather than dwelling in the past; it is truth that in order to know where you are going in life you have to know where you have been. The psyche can be quite fragile, depending largely on the subconscious, to direct the life; like a computer all the data of your past upbringing and imprinting is stored within...it is our mission in life to become more consciously aware of how that inner landscape affects our external experiences. Once you can truly know yourself you are then empowered to bring inspiration, hope and compatibility to your relationships. Look also to the afflictions of Mercury in the 7th to see how your domestic stability can be now continue to be affected...
The Nodal axis:
Now we see that the axis also has the Sun and Venus intersecting in Aries at the midpoint; in the 8th H no less. My Sun also falls in the 8th....seems to be a situation where we have close encounters with death and separations in life which truly serve to mess with the psyche, and at some point later, we have to come to terms with by integrating the knowledge learned from the past on a conscious level and find ways to balance that out.
We also note that your 8th is loaded, with only Uranus to challenge it; right there ; upset and instability; the unexpected need for early independence. As such with Sagittarius governing the 4th H of roots and foundation, you were set up to be the wanderer and the nomad. Fortunately the Sun/Venus are assisted by positive connections with Saturn and Mars/Jupiter. That particular trio should be delineated on it's own. [by sign, house and rulership] and then integrated into the whole. Where does the Moon send it's natural domestic energies?
Since your emotional weighting is way low in your chart, you have allowed yourself to learn to strictly control your emotions, which in turn gave you the impetus to just move on and develop independently. A focus on all that Aries energy shows the ability to move ahead and be the leader of your own life. That then becomes the focus of your Nodal axis; you have to know where you have been before you know where you are going.
The aspects of the stellium in particular then become important to solving the riddle.
The emphasis on your fire and water show that you naturally turn your focus onto socialization and inspired personal expression, rather than dwelling in the past; it is truth that in order to know where you are going in life you have to know where you have been. The psyche can be quite fragile, depending largely on the subconscious, to direct the life; like a computer all the data of your past upbringing and imprinting is stored within...it is our mission in life to become more consciously aware of how that inner landscape affects our external experiences. Once you can truly know yourself you are then empowered to bring inspiration, hope and compatibility to your relationships. Look also to the afflictions of Mercury in the 7th to see how your domestic stability can be now continue to be affected...
Birch Dragon
Well-known member
Dear Esteemed Astrologers,
I am overwhelmed, and not sure how to respond.
First, I'm overwhelmed by gratitude for this flurry of responses by so many great posters, all gently pushing towards a deeper, more synthetic reading of the natal chart. (It makes me think how interesting it would be to have a chart reading by five astrologers at once, with all of their different perspectives and approaches, sitting around the table together, responding to and bouncing ideas off each other.)
Second, I'm overwhelmed by information: by a sudden rush of knowledge and opening doors. To each of you, want you've posted here may be rudimentary steps in thinking about a chart. But to me, every one of those posts is a key opening a whole world I have to mull over and explore. My mind is in astrology overload.
Third, I'm overwhelmed in that I want to respond, to reciprocate, to give equally to the discussion, but I'm not sure exactly the kind of response each of you would best like. So I'll just give it my best guess and say this: first, I'll make some specific remarks about these posts hitting home. Later, in a second, shorter post, when I can write it, I'll go ahead and say some things about why I'm asking these questions, in light of the themes your posts have raised. I hope these posts are interesting to you and not excessive. I'm trying to repay in kind.
First, my immediate response to each of these posts is a resounding, "Yes! Wow! Hmm... Uh-oh...!"
Frisiangal: when you suggested that perhaps I am simply conflating signs and houses, I thought "Is there an emoticon on this site for "Facepalm! Of course!" To be honest, part of the initial question was stemming from all the times I've opened up books or writings on the moon's nodes with chapter titles like "North Node in Taurus or the Second House," "North Node in Capricorn or the Tenth House." Also, I really appreciate the way you're seeing my chosen profession expressed in themes in my chart.
Greybeard's interpretation that my chart suggests I am very driven speaks to me clearly. In fact, the metaphor of a locomotive really speaks to me, in ways I'll come back to later. With Pluto leading the train: this strikes me as important in a way that I wish it wasn't. I'm not enamoured by Plutonian themes and yet I think they may rule my life, not the least in ways that resonate with what Kimbermoon says about the 8th house: a series of life-transforming deaths and losses. The notion of a theme of "transcendence" speaks to me in that I feel like my natural, strong inclination is always to push for a transcendence of our earthly, animal limitations, in all thing: moral, physical, intellectual, social. Yet exactly one reason why I'm posting these questions is because I'm not sure whether that inclination to want transcendence isn't at odds with a chart/life that is trying to teach me the importance of embracing/being stuck in/limited to/trapped by earthly form and materiality. After all, as Greybeard said about Saturn standing over Neptune, it takes some concretizing to manifest dreams into reality... Tensions between Saturn and Pluto??? They don't seem in tension in my chart. It confuses me.
Kimbermoon has, again, made me feel like she's just skipping past all the outer layers, the skin and bone, and gone straight for my inner psyche. Which makes me feel a little worried about how easily that can be accessed. And again, I feel like I have a lot to learn from Kimbermoon that I could really use at this very moment in my life. It's interesting to me that each of these recent posts seem to suggest different approaches on the part of the poster. For example, Kimbermoon says she has Sun in the 8th, and her posts feel to me like they penetrate my psyche. I know nothing about Greybeard's chart or personality but he did something that strikes me as more Saturn-like(?): focusing on the overall geometry and structures of the chart, which in turn reflect the formal structures of the psyche.
Caprising is BANG ON about why I'm here and how I'm feeling at the moment. We are indeed on the same page. Before I started this thread I tried another that was asking about transits. The current Uranus-Pluto square is hanging out around my natal's Sun-nodes square, and next year there'll be a moment in April when a Grand Cross forms in 13 degrees of the cardinal signs, right on top of my Sun/nodes. Because I've been feeling exactly what you're hinting at, Caprising, I find myself posting on this site - wondering why I'm dissatisfied, what part of who I'm supposed to be I'm not fulfilling, and how to better myself for the next forty years.
Poyi, I take your post to be asking if my career revolves around handling other's money and resources. Is that right? In the case of money the answer is pretty clearly "no." I am the classic absent minded professor. Powerful with ideas, really shoddy with material organization. Of course, my job demands that I have organization. (Unless it comes to essay organization, it which case I rock). It turns out the life of a professor is very bureaucratic. But I don't deal with money. In fact, I have a difficult relationship with money. It is one of those social forces I'd (naively?) like to see humanity transcend. On the other hand, I do teach classes on Justice that have everything to do with thinking about the just or unjust distribution of goods in society. And it occurs to me, now at 40, that no matter how much I dislike money I have to have some - especially now that I'm married and need to provide for more than just myself in life. Spartan, monkish living is o.k. as long as you're a monk, I guess. So perhaps you are hitting on something that my chart suggests I should be manifesting in life but just am not??? I must admit, I have wondered about Uranus in the 2nd. I'd like to see our whole approach to economics and worldly goods revolutionized.
That said, on the point about the Chiron/Sun conjunction: That certainly speaks to the weird and persistent relationship I have with Pain! I have to learn more about this...
Also, lastly, I just want to note I loved greybeard's language of an "agonizing Moon" near immolation beside the burning Sun. Also, nobody with an Aries ego can read something like this - "a seeker, intent on seeing beyond the veil...walks where angels fear to tread" - and not feel ego-stroked. But objectively I think it's an accurate description. Though this is one place of many where my superficial outer persona does not seem to match my inner self. Many people fail to see me this way.
So, from this flurry of activity I walk away with the thought that I have to further study:
- the synthesis of the whole chart
- Sun/Chiron conjunct
- Pluto
- Sun/Moon/Venus conjunct, trining Mars/Juptier trining Saturn
- Neptune/Saturn/Mercury t-square
- Mars (don't overlook it)
- Mercury's debilities and its effects on my relationships.
Thanks for the years of homework you've just assigned.
I am overwhelmed, and not sure how to respond.
First, I'm overwhelmed by gratitude for this flurry of responses by so many great posters, all gently pushing towards a deeper, more synthetic reading of the natal chart. (It makes me think how interesting it would be to have a chart reading by five astrologers at once, with all of their different perspectives and approaches, sitting around the table together, responding to and bouncing ideas off each other.)
Second, I'm overwhelmed by information: by a sudden rush of knowledge and opening doors. To each of you, want you've posted here may be rudimentary steps in thinking about a chart. But to me, every one of those posts is a key opening a whole world I have to mull over and explore. My mind is in astrology overload.
Third, I'm overwhelmed in that I want to respond, to reciprocate, to give equally to the discussion, but I'm not sure exactly the kind of response each of you would best like. So I'll just give it my best guess and say this: first, I'll make some specific remarks about these posts hitting home. Later, in a second, shorter post, when I can write it, I'll go ahead and say some things about why I'm asking these questions, in light of the themes your posts have raised. I hope these posts are interesting to you and not excessive. I'm trying to repay in kind.
First, my immediate response to each of these posts is a resounding, "Yes! Wow! Hmm... Uh-oh...!"
Frisiangal: when you suggested that perhaps I am simply conflating signs and houses, I thought "Is there an emoticon on this site for "Facepalm! Of course!" To be honest, part of the initial question was stemming from all the times I've opened up books or writings on the moon's nodes with chapter titles like "North Node in Taurus or the Second House," "North Node in Capricorn or the Tenth House." Also, I really appreciate the way you're seeing my chosen profession expressed in themes in my chart.
Greybeard's interpretation that my chart suggests I am very driven speaks to me clearly. In fact, the metaphor of a locomotive really speaks to me, in ways I'll come back to later. With Pluto leading the train: this strikes me as important in a way that I wish it wasn't. I'm not enamoured by Plutonian themes and yet I think they may rule my life, not the least in ways that resonate with what Kimbermoon says about the 8th house: a series of life-transforming deaths and losses. The notion of a theme of "transcendence" speaks to me in that I feel like my natural, strong inclination is always to push for a transcendence of our earthly, animal limitations, in all thing: moral, physical, intellectual, social. Yet exactly one reason why I'm posting these questions is because I'm not sure whether that inclination to want transcendence isn't at odds with a chart/life that is trying to teach me the importance of embracing/being stuck in/limited to/trapped by earthly form and materiality. After all, as Greybeard said about Saturn standing over Neptune, it takes some concretizing to manifest dreams into reality... Tensions between Saturn and Pluto??? They don't seem in tension in my chart. It confuses me.
Kimbermoon has, again, made me feel like she's just skipping past all the outer layers, the skin and bone, and gone straight for my inner psyche. Which makes me feel a little worried about how easily that can be accessed.
And again, I feel like I have a lot to learn from Kimbermoon that I could really use at this very moment in my life. It's interesting to me that each of these recent posts seem to suggest different approaches on the part of the poster. For example, Kimbermoon says she has Sun in the 8th, and her posts feel to me like they penetrate my psyche. I know nothing about Greybeard's chart or personality but he did something that strikes me as more Saturn-like(?): focusing on the overall geometry and structures of the chart, which in turn reflect the formal structures of the psyche. Caprising is BANG ON about why I'm here and how I'm feeling at the moment. We are indeed on the same page. Before I started this thread I tried another that was asking about transits. The current Uranus-Pluto square is hanging out around my natal's Sun-nodes square, and next year there'll be a moment in April when a Grand Cross forms in 13 degrees of the cardinal signs, right on top of my Sun/nodes. Because I've been feeling exactly what you're hinting at, Caprising, I find myself posting on this site - wondering why I'm dissatisfied, what part of who I'm supposed to be I'm not fulfilling, and how to better myself for the next forty years.
Poyi, I take your post to be asking if my career revolves around handling other's money and resources. Is that right? In the case of money the answer is pretty clearly "no." I am the classic absent minded professor. Powerful with ideas, really shoddy with material organization. Of course, my job demands that I have organization. (Unless it comes to essay organization, it which case I rock). It turns out the life of a professor is very bureaucratic. But I don't deal with money. In fact, I have a difficult relationship with money. It is one of those social forces I'd (naively?) like to see humanity transcend. On the other hand, I do teach classes on Justice that have everything to do with thinking about the just or unjust distribution of goods in society. And it occurs to me, now at 40, that no matter how much I dislike money I have to have some - especially now that I'm married and need to provide for more than just myself in life. Spartan, monkish living is o.k. as long as you're a monk, I guess.
So perhaps you are hitting on something that my chart suggests I should be manifesting in life but just am not??? I must admit, I have wondered about Uranus in the 2nd. I'd like to see our whole approach to economics and worldly goods revolutionized.That said, on the point about the Chiron/Sun conjunction: That certainly speaks to the weird and persistent relationship I have with Pain! I have to learn more about this...
Also, lastly, I just want to note I loved greybeard's language of an "agonizing Moon" near immolation beside the burning Sun. Also, nobody with an Aries ego can read something like this - "a seeker, intent on seeing beyond the veil...walks where angels fear to tread" - and not feel ego-stroked. But objectively I think it's an accurate description. Though this is one place of many where my superficial outer persona does not seem to match my inner self. Many people fail to see me this way.
So, from this flurry of activity I walk away with the thought that I have to further study:
- the synthesis of the whole chart
- Sun/Chiron conjunct
- Pluto
- Sun/Moon/Venus conjunct, trining Mars/Juptier trining Saturn
- Neptune/Saturn/Mercury t-square
- Mars (don't overlook it)
- Mercury's debilities and its effects on my relationships.
Thanks for the years of homework you've just assigned.
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poyi
Premium Member
Thank you for your feedback I must learn how I got the reading wrong. It is very interesting that in my perspective you will be good at money but in reality to be the extreme opposite. No matter what you personal planets are related to these houses. 2nd and 8th are both about values your personal one and values about other people. The harmful effect of combustion might change from being good to be very dislike. Venus also in her fall being the ruler of 2nd house. But I took that malefic energy as you earn through other people from their debt. But instead the energy functions as being in fear/dislike/discard Scorpio the planet of elimination and detox system of the Venus matter. Ruler of 2nd material and non material self value and value at large are placed in 8th the house of fear, transformation and other people resources. So in you case instead of earning through other people it manifested as you dislike Venus matters and you like to transform the way people their valuing system very interesting. And Venus rules 9th the higher education no wonder you teach about this. The Venus and Uranus aspect instead of sudden gain it functioned as instability of your own finances. I should pay more attention on the Uranus Rx acting odd and more odd in your 2nd house.
8th house is Scorpio's home it can be either very obsessive, very in fear of not having or avoid having or liberating from the attachment whatever Scorpio rules.
Thank you very much. I had learned something new.
8th house is Scorpio's home it can be either very obsessive, very in fear of not having or avoid having or liberating from the attachment whatever Scorpio rules.
Thank you very much. I had learned something new.
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mdinaz
Well-known member
I'm not sure you'd want this to occur in your house. It would likely get very rowdy and a tad out-of-hand. Astrologers are a lot like musicians, I have found.
A simple acknowledgement and a notation whether it was useful or not, and if not, why not. Astrologers require feed back in order to refine their knowledge and skills, just like any other tradesman.
Frisiangal
Well-known member
As long as you remember that you are two different individuals who have lived through different experiences in different circumstances in separate lives that have formed who each has become. The one is not a carbon copy of the other.
I failed final exams once because I used 'you are, have, think, do, will' in sentances. I was told I sounded like an oracle! I learnt the lesson.
Telling someone who, how, what, why they are from a chart does not give them the opportunity to work out the answers to who, what, how they are for themselves....and understand why.
Re-sit was more successful.
Actually they are more like a bunch of children with Asperger's Syndrome told by their parents to play together in a sandbox.
Of course, there are also some of us who don't want feedback because we believe that we have to be absolutely correct and if we are not, then its either because the birth time is wrong, or the OP is too pig headed to see the truth.
BTW, For those of us who have a pretty strong literal bent, the above was meant as "HUMOR about astrologers", without any specific people considered. However, I'm sure that all of us, if cornered, could name people, or even ourselves(gulp!!!). No one here, of course!
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poyi
Premium Member
Birch Dragon
One thing I should learn and apply more would be the Astrology of Sect a technique to determine/weight the dignity of planets based on above or below horizon to observe their strength or weakness in the native's life.
Some reading materials about this technique.
http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2008/11/25/the-astrology-of-sect/
http://www.astrologycritics.com/night-a-day-planetary-sect-in-astrology.html
One thing I should learn and apply more would be the Astrology of Sect a technique to determine/weight the dignity of planets based on above or below horizon to observe their strength or weakness in the native's life.
Some reading materials about this technique.
http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2008/11/25/the-astrology-of-sect/
http://www.astrologycritics.com/night-a-day-planetary-sect-in-astrology.html
I question "Neptune conjunct natal I.C. (or nadir). I find myself asking: why situate ones Neptune where it is going to generate confusion about who one is deep inside (I.C.)". Does Neptune on the Nadir really do that?
If you are sure that it does, can you please elaborate. What do you mean by this? How does it work (what are its effects, what range of "symptoms" might we expect?)
Thanks
If you are sure that it does, can you please elaborate. What do you mean by this? How does it work (what are its effects, what range of "symptoms" might we expect?)
Thanks
poyi
Premium Member
This is very interesting while I paid attention to Birchdragon on his natal valuing system. By transits in progressions, Pluto conjuncts his progressed NN, while tranist NN transiting in Scorpio of your progressed 2nd house. Maybe this transit also brought you into studying your own Moon nodes placement? Another strong hit is the Progressed Mars transit Neptune conjunction. Also the coming up transit Mars to progressed Pluto in progressed 12th. I would assume to be related to the 7th & 2nd house of progressed chart, need to also look into the natal.
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poyi
Premium Member
The Uranus Rx will turn direct and conjunct DC when Pluto square until after April next year from memory. This Pluto also square and remain in effective orb to progressed ascendant while again progressed moon in this period in the sign of Libra about partnership.
Right now Venus in Capricorn, is out of bounds her ruler Saturn placed in 2nd in Scorpio, Saturn as the moving ruler of the progressed 4th, Venus which is the moving ruler of the 8th house, placed in 4th anything relating to these houses happening in your real life? You did mention issues with finance cause you need to provide for your partner as well so the progressions seem to be describing what is happening.
My concern is the progressed 5th Mars square 2nd Neptune while also having a conjunction from transit Neptune. Neptune as modern ruler used as for Pisces that is ruling over your 6th house. I am not too sure how to interpret this could be debt, could be romantic affair, could be gambling or related issues, many possibilities. The best interpretation will come from the basic common sense of the matters you already knew at the present moments so only you can judge on this. I am not too hardworking on recasting your chart to look into the midpoints perhaps someone else will have the interest to do so. Midpoints will allow you to narrow down the possibilities.
Right now Venus in Capricorn, is out of bounds her ruler Saturn placed in 2nd in Scorpio, Saturn as the moving ruler of the progressed 4th, Venus which is the moving ruler of the 8th house, placed in 4th anything relating to these houses happening in your real life? You did mention issues with finance cause you need to provide for your partner as well so the progressions seem to be describing what is happening.
My concern is the progressed 5th Mars square 2nd Neptune while also having a conjunction from transit Neptune. Neptune as modern ruler used as for Pisces that is ruling over your 6th house. I am not too sure how to interpret this could be debt, could be romantic affair, could be gambling or related issues, many possibilities. The best interpretation will come from the basic common sense of the matters you already knew at the present moments so only you can judge on this. I am not too hardworking on recasting your chart to look into the midpoints perhaps someone else will have the interest to do so. Midpoints will allow you to narrow down the possibilities.
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Thanks for your explanation CapRising...
I have Neptune 3 degrees conj. IC.
As a child I did not live in a dream world. I was pretty much in tune with and active in the real world. I have always been a bookworm, and depending on your viewpoint you might consider that as "escapism". I don't. The relationship with mother was weak (A long time ago I attended a seminar concerning "planets on the angles", and the lecturer -- a woman I would describe as a gypsy fortune-teller -- in her opening statement about "Neptune on the 4th angle" said "Mama was a space-cadet." I nearly fell out of my chair laughing. She then mentioned that both her sons had this position.
My mother-figure (call her the "idealized mother" if you will, but she was very real) was my mother's sister (my aunt) with whom I lived for a part of my childhood (due to discord/chaos in the parental family). Neptune is associated with prosthetics, substitutes and copies (images), surrogates, adoption....
Neptunian characteristics are a strong component of my life: drifting, rootlessness, dissolution of family ties, alcoholism, unwillingness and inability to meet the real world on its terms [injustice, cruelty, greed, oppression....], but through all of that, it seems to me that I have nonetheless maintained a strong sense of self, that my feet have been planted firmly on the ground. It may be that I am deluding myself, but I don't think so. You may have noticed that in quite a few of my posts here on the forum, I talk about the imperative need for facing the reality of self and the world if we are to heal our wounded soul.
If we take note of the OP's story of his childhood/youth, we also see a pattern of instability in family/home affairs, but I woud hesitate to say "confusion about who one is." Both he and I have an 8th House Sun and 4th House (and angular) Neptune, and speaking for myself...I am a mystic, my life has in large part been a spiritual quest, not out of confusion about self, but rather from the recognition that "the world as it is" is founded upon illusion and falsehood.
I continue to question the statement that Neptune on the IC "generates confusion about who one is deep inside." I may be quibbling over semantics or perspective. I firmly believe I have always known who I am (or we might say, who I wanted to be) and through all the "Neptune stuff" that has been part of my life path, that consciousness has been the star that guided me.
And at risk of beating a dead horse, we must always take any horoscope component in the context of the whole chart, not as an isolated entity.
Thanks for responding to my question.
I have Neptune 3 degrees conj. IC.
As a child I did not live in a dream world. I was pretty much in tune with and active in the real world. I have always been a bookworm, and depending on your viewpoint you might consider that as "escapism". I don't. The relationship with mother was weak (A long time ago I attended a seminar concerning "planets on the angles", and the lecturer -- a woman I would describe as a gypsy fortune-teller -- in her opening statement about "Neptune on the 4th angle" said "Mama was a space-cadet." I nearly fell out of my chair laughing. She then mentioned that both her sons had this position.
My mother-figure (call her the "idealized mother" if you will, but she was very real) was my mother's sister (my aunt) with whom I lived for a part of my childhood (due to discord/chaos in the parental family). Neptune is associated with prosthetics, substitutes and copies (images), surrogates, adoption....
Neptunian characteristics are a strong component of my life: drifting, rootlessness, dissolution of family ties, alcoholism, unwillingness and inability to meet the real world on its terms [injustice, cruelty, greed, oppression....], but through all of that, it seems to me that I have nonetheless maintained a strong sense of self, that my feet have been planted firmly on the ground. It may be that I am deluding myself, but I don't think so. You may have noticed that in quite a few of my posts here on the forum, I talk about the imperative need for facing the reality of self and the world if we are to heal our wounded soul.
If we take note of the OP's story of his childhood/youth, we also see a pattern of instability in family/home affairs, but I woud hesitate to say "confusion about who one is." Both he and I have an 8th House Sun and 4th House (and angular) Neptune, and speaking for myself...I am a mystic, my life has in large part been a spiritual quest, not out of confusion about self, but rather from the recognition that "the world as it is" is founded upon illusion and falsehood.
I continue to question the statement that Neptune on the IC "generates confusion about who one is deep inside." I may be quibbling over semantics or perspective. I firmly believe I have always known who I am (or we might say, who I wanted to be) and through all the "Neptune stuff" that has been part of my life path, that consciousness has been the star that guided me.
And at risk of beating a dead horse, we must always take any horoscope component in the context of the whole chart, not as an isolated entity.
Thanks for responding to my question.
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
HOWEVERActually they are more like a bunch of children with Asperger's Syndrome told by their parents to play together in a sandbox.
Of course, there are also some of us who don't want feedback because we believe that we have to be absolutely correct and if we are not, then its either because the birth time is wrong, or the OP is too pig headed to see the truth.
It is important to be aware that the official time sets the Ascendant degree and Sign
Therefore it is most important that the official time of birth is at least accurate
Because, if it is not,
and frequently official times of birth are inaccurate
THEN
the natal chart reading is obviously questionable
It is common practice in astrology to first ascertain that the time of birth is accurate - that's simply common sense - because the entire interpretation of the natal chart in question is dependent on a reliable time of birth
In fact, HOROSCOPE is derived from '....Greek words meaning "a look at the hours" (horoskopos, pl. horoskopoi, or "marker(s) of the hour.")....'
Birch Dragon
Well-known member
"When Birchtree answers my post (which he probably will do when he gets some spare time) his acceptance of my description (or otherwise) of Neptune conjunct (a tad wide at 2 degrees) the I.C. will give us a hint as to 1. how accurate his birthtime is, and 2. how strong Neptune is in his chart- Neptune works well in Sagg, so I believe that his time of birth is reasonably accurate at this point."
Yup... You got it, Caprising. 'Tis the season I get swamped with paper grading. Whole seas of papers to drown in. But I've been wanting to respond... and I think I'll be emerging from that sea very soon.
As to the accuracy of my birth time... What I have listed on my chart is the time noted on my official birth certificate. Though, there is a story to go along with that, which I realize is actually directly related to all this talk of Neptune... So maybe I'll post about it next...?
That said, when I get to respond I'm pretty sure I'm going to say that it's not clear to me Caprising and Greybeard can't both be right. This disagreement about whether Neptune conj. I.C. makes a person unsure of who they are or not seems at first to be at an impasse. The two positions seem mutually exclusive. But I'm not sure they can't both be right. In my own life there are ways in which I resonate pretty well with both positions.
But more on that soon... For the moment I was just coming back up for a quick gulp of air. I have to dive back into those papers now.
Yup... You got it, Caprising. 'Tis the season I get swamped with paper grading. Whole seas of papers to drown in. But I've been wanting to respond... and I think I'll be emerging from that sea very soon.
As to the accuracy of my birth time... What I have listed on my chart is the time noted on my official birth certificate. Though, there is a story to go along with that, which I realize is actually directly related to all this talk of Neptune... So maybe I'll post about it next...?
That said, when I get to respond I'm pretty sure I'm going to say that it's not clear to me Caprising and Greybeard can't both be right. This disagreement about whether Neptune conj. I.C. makes a person unsure of who they are or not seems at first to be at an impasse. The two positions seem mutually exclusive. But I'm not sure they can't both be right. In my own life there are ways in which I resonate pretty well with both positions.
But more on that soon... For the moment I was just coming back up for a quick gulp of air. I have to dive back into those papers now.
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I oonsider a 3 degree conjuntion with an angle to be "exact" (it is a very powerful, effective infuence in the life). The aspect perfects by the 3rd birthday (1 degree = 1 year measure) and is therefore a deep and fundamentally unchanging component of character. Its basis (its environmental/experiential causation) is probably not available to consciousness.
I differentiate between essential dignity/debility (endowed or inherent qualities) and accidental dignity/debility (adventitious experiences of external origin, which if they occur early in life are formative of character [procuce effects very similar to the essential dignity], and if they occur later in life are precipitating agents.) A 3-degree aspect occurs early in life, is powerful. A planet in a sign is indicative of its essential nature (whether in dignity/debility or not), and is not so much an indication of strength, per se, as of quality. A planet essentially debilitated can work very powerfully in the life (probably with a tendency toward more challenging forms of expression) if it is in mundane dignity (i.e., conjunct an angle), but on the other hand, its expression is liable to be less prominent, or less direct and open, in the life if its mundane postion is weaker (cadent, for example).
Where I disagree is in Miss Hastings' statement that Neptune conjunct the IC (3 degrees is not "loose" in my opinion) produces the "construction of a world of fantasy." Noel Tyl has Neptune in the 3rd at near 12 degrees from the IC (so not quite germane to this discussion, but still informative) and what we see is that his father abandoned his mother at Noel's age 9 [as Neptune approaches the IC within about 3 degrees], and the mother remarried not too long after, thus bringing a step-father (prosthetic, substitute, adoptive...) into the boy's life about the time of the directed conjunction to the IC; fantasy was not a powerful element in the transaction. Neptune symbolizes "dissolution", and its close contact with the 4th cusp can indicate some form of "dissolution" of family, roots, foundations. Also, the natal effects of Neptune, as they play out in the developing life, are also dictated by its post-natal directed or transiting aspects and contacts...each case will be different according to the planets contacted and the timing of those events.
And in my personal chart, Neptune is given a very powerful role in the development of the basic self because it was in partile conjunction to the pre-natal eclipse; it is thus energized and directed toward powerful participation in the development of the most fundamental aspects of self (the eclipse involves Sun-Moon, the most vital planetary pair), according to its natal mundane position (which individualizes the form of manifestation of the activity at the pre-natal eclipse.) -- Neptune directed to conj. Moon corresponded to divorce, loss of home and family, an increased feeling of non-attachment -- and also the beginnings of escapist, dependent, illusory behavior (alcohol) -- ... the direction was activated and specified by the more or less concurrent transit of Pluto over the IC. While we can see the events and behaviors above as "fantasy" or "not knowing who we are," I think the terminology is misleading and vague.
My point is only that correlation of Neptune to "creation of a world of fantasy" can be misleading in interpretation. "Fantasy" is only a sub-set of the set of conditions that might better be described as "transcendance or escape." The transcendance or escape may take the form of fantasy, but probably does not (significantly) in the majority of cases.
All of us are "unsure who we are" to some degree at some point during life, so degree, manner and time-period (4th house -- early childhood and our later years) would have to be significantly powerful to make this a valid or meaningful statement.
I differentiate between essential dignity/debility (endowed or inherent qualities) and accidental dignity/debility (adventitious experiences of external origin, which if they occur early in life are formative of character [procuce effects very similar to the essential dignity], and if they occur later in life are precipitating agents.) A 3-degree aspect occurs early in life, is powerful. A planet in a sign is indicative of its essential nature (whether in dignity/debility or not), and is not so much an indication of strength, per se, as of quality. A planet essentially debilitated can work very powerfully in the life (probably with a tendency toward more challenging forms of expression) if it is in mundane dignity (i.e., conjunct an angle), but on the other hand, its expression is liable to be less prominent, or less direct and open, in the life if its mundane postion is weaker (cadent, for example).
Where I disagree is in Miss Hastings' statement that Neptune conjunct the IC (3 degrees is not "loose" in my opinion) produces the "construction of a world of fantasy." Noel Tyl has Neptune in the 3rd at near 12 degrees from the IC (so not quite germane to this discussion, but still informative) and what we see is that his father abandoned his mother at Noel's age 9 [as Neptune approaches the IC within about 3 degrees], and the mother remarried not too long after, thus bringing a step-father (prosthetic, substitute, adoptive...) into the boy's life about the time of the directed conjunction to the IC; fantasy was not a powerful element in the transaction. Neptune symbolizes "dissolution", and its close contact with the 4th cusp can indicate some form of "dissolution" of family, roots, foundations. Also, the natal effects of Neptune, as they play out in the developing life, are also dictated by its post-natal directed or transiting aspects and contacts...each case will be different according to the planets contacted and the timing of those events.
And in my personal chart, Neptune is given a very powerful role in the development of the basic self because it was in partile conjunction to the pre-natal eclipse; it is thus energized and directed toward powerful participation in the development of the most fundamental aspects of self (the eclipse involves Sun-Moon, the most vital planetary pair), according to its natal mundane position (which individualizes the form of manifestation of the activity at the pre-natal eclipse.) -- Neptune directed to conj. Moon corresponded to divorce, loss of home and family, an increased feeling of non-attachment -- and also the beginnings of escapist, dependent, illusory behavior (alcohol) -- ... the direction was activated and specified by the more or less concurrent transit of Pluto over the IC. While we can see the events and behaviors above as "fantasy" or "not knowing who we are," I think the terminology is misleading and vague.
My point is only that correlation of Neptune to "creation of a world of fantasy" can be misleading in interpretation. "Fantasy" is only a sub-set of the set of conditions that might better be described as "transcendance or escape." The transcendance or escape may take the form of fantasy, but probably does not (significantly) in the majority of cases.
All of us are "unsure who we are" to some degree at some point during life, so degree, manner and time-period (4th house -- early childhood and our later years) would have to be significantly powerful to make this a valid or meaningful statement.
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Birch Dragon
Well-known member
The problem with not responding for a while is I wind up with a lot to say, so I’m going to break this into separate posts.
I. Re-Cap: From the Nodes to Neptune and Back Again:
Diving into the Astrologer’s Community a few weeks ago, I started with questions about my moon’s nodes, which sparked an immediate reply of “think about the nodes by looking at the whole chart,” which in turn has led for the moment to Neptune. Why Neptune? Because Caprising has suggested it represents a “twist,” a possible contradiction, in relation to the apparent message of the nodes. That there might be a “twist” is something I’m glad to hear. To go back to what I originally titled this thread, I can’t help but feel that there is some sort of mixed message or question of balance in the story of my nodes because even as the NN sits in the 4th house I feel so pulled to work out 10th house things. Zarathu has kindly run my astrodynes for me (really interesting!) and my MC scores as the strongest point in my chart. Coupled with Saturn in the 10th (Saturn's own house) and Cap NN, I suspect that puts a lot of emphasis on 10th house-like forces. ??? So I have felt for a while now that some clear sense of the essential purpose of my life will have something to do with finding balance along the Cancer/Capricorn axis, which I see as something like this: You have to plant your roots firmly before you can grow a strong tree that reaches for the sky. (E.g. Gandhi felt we ought to draw wisdom from all the world’s religions but stay rooted in the religion we are born to: in his case Hinduism.) Without strong roots in the 4th, whatever I try to build in the 10th will too easily collapse. So I have a working metaphor for what my nodes are saying to me, and so far it's worked well for my understanding of my self (not that I’m great yet at planting those roots). Still, I want a deeper, more robust understanding. (At worst, I'm wondering if my metaphor isn't just a self-deceptive way of making a 4th house NN about the 10th house after all.) So I particularly appreciate the basic theme of this thread: “learn the whole chart.”
The first complication that has come up, as a doorway to deeper insight, is Neptune hanging around the I.C. (and isn’t it like Neptune to be ambiguous about whether he’s on the I.C. or not…? Is he in the 3rd? Is he in the 4th?) In the past, I realize now, I’ve neglected Neptune. All I thought about Neptune in my chart was this: he makes it hard to plant roots. More like: He makes an invisible force field over the ground any time I try to plant roots! But with this discussion between Caprising and Greybear, and with Zarathu’s astrodynes, I’ve been thinking a lot more about Neptune, reading about him… I realize Neptune is actually a serious component of my life. (Astrodynes have Moon and Neptune as the two most powerful planets in my chart, and they are in a very close trine.) Points that Caprising and Greybeard have made both ring quite true for me. And more, despite the way “confusing” seems to be the concept most associated with Neptune, I don’t think that’s the really salient point about my experience with this planet. I look on it and think today that Neptune is my friend.
Where I find myself now, after the thoughts of this post, is here: What are the qualities of this inherently watery combination – Neptune trine the Moon – in fire signs: Sag and Aries? But that seems a question for another thread.
I. Re-Cap: From the Nodes to Neptune and Back Again:
Diving into the Astrologer’s Community a few weeks ago, I started with questions about my moon’s nodes, which sparked an immediate reply of “think about the nodes by looking at the whole chart,” which in turn has led for the moment to Neptune. Why Neptune? Because Caprising has suggested it represents a “twist,” a possible contradiction, in relation to the apparent message of the nodes. That there might be a “twist” is something I’m glad to hear. To go back to what I originally titled this thread, I can’t help but feel that there is some sort of mixed message or question of balance in the story of my nodes because even as the NN sits in the 4th house I feel so pulled to work out 10th house things. Zarathu has kindly run my astrodynes for me (really interesting!) and my MC scores as the strongest point in my chart. Coupled with Saturn in the 10th (Saturn's own house) and Cap NN, I suspect that puts a lot of emphasis on 10th house-like forces. ??? So I have felt for a while now that some clear sense of the essential purpose of my life will have something to do with finding balance along the Cancer/Capricorn axis, which I see as something like this: You have to plant your roots firmly before you can grow a strong tree that reaches for the sky. (E.g. Gandhi felt we ought to draw wisdom from all the world’s religions but stay rooted in the religion we are born to: in his case Hinduism.) Without strong roots in the 4th, whatever I try to build in the 10th will too easily collapse. So I have a working metaphor for what my nodes are saying to me, and so far it's worked well for my understanding of my self (not that I’m great yet at planting those roots). Still, I want a deeper, more robust understanding. (At worst, I'm wondering if my metaphor isn't just a self-deceptive way of making a 4th house NN about the 10th house after all.) So I particularly appreciate the basic theme of this thread: “learn the whole chart.”
The first complication that has come up, as a doorway to deeper insight, is Neptune hanging around the I.C. (and isn’t it like Neptune to be ambiguous about whether he’s on the I.C. or not…? Is he in the 3rd? Is he in the 4th?) In the past, I realize now, I’ve neglected Neptune. All I thought about Neptune in my chart was this: he makes it hard to plant roots. More like: He makes an invisible force field over the ground any time I try to plant roots! But with this discussion between Caprising and Greybear, and with Zarathu’s astrodynes, I’ve been thinking a lot more about Neptune, reading about him… I realize Neptune is actually a serious component of my life. (Astrodynes have Moon and Neptune as the two most powerful planets in my chart, and they are in a very close trine.) Points that Caprising and Greybeard have made both ring quite true for me. And more, despite the way “confusing” seems to be the concept most associated with Neptune, I don’t think that’s the really salient point about my experience with this planet. I look on it and think today that Neptune is my friend.
Where I find myself now, after the thoughts of this post, is here: What are the qualities of this inherently watery combination – Neptune trine the Moon – in fire signs: Sag and Aries? But that seems a question for another thread.
Birch Dragon
Well-known member
II. Is Neptune in My 3rd or 4th house?
The birth time I have is given by my official birth certificate. It’s a very different time than my mother remembers, but in the end I trust the birth certificate. And if I had to guess I’d probably place Neptune exactly where he is in the birth-certificate chart: In the 3rd house, standing at the door of the 4th.
That said, the question of Neptune in the third house may be confused – or perhaps confirmed? – by the fact that my Mercury is in Pisces. Look at that!:Mercury in Pisces, ruled by Neptune – Neptune in the 3rd house, ruled by Mercury. It seems clear to me that key skills, proficiencies, preoccupations that make me who I am – the way perhaps his sword, shield and invulnerability make Achilles who Achilles is – are music, language and other concerns of the mind fashioned with a Neptunian bent. What does not resonate with me is the notion I read sometimes that Neptune aspects and/or Mercury in Pisces have the primary effect of confusing and debilitating the mind. My mind has been powerful and sharp from the very start, and I’ve spent the second half of my life sharpening it more and more. What I do see is that my mind tends strongly towards synthesis over analysis, music, metaphor and parable over logic, and inspiration over calculation. But, I have developed the other powers of the mind, what I think might be Virgoan powers(?), as well – analysis, logic, calculation, etc. – particularly by way of formal education, and I guess I attribute that to the influence of that Mercury-Saturn square.
The point: it’s hard for me to parse out the influence of Neptune here with the fact that my Mercury is in Pisces, but I certainly feel Neptune on the mind. And now, at 40, it’s turned out that a big part of my career involves communicating messages of love and empathy to sectors of the world that aren’t usually interested in such spiritual, or sentimental, themes (e.g., academia).
As I read about Neptune in the 4th house I find myself resonating with about 50% of the ideas. To be honest, when I think about the “family and the past” aspect of the 4th house I feel fettered by history – a history I’d rather sluff off and move forward from. (Is this I.C. in Sag?) And I worry that the natal is telling me: “And that’s the problem. Those anchors don’t just sluff off until you turn and deal with them in a deep, 8th house way…” That said, to agree with Caprising, as a child I lived – in the home – in a bubble-world of my own imagination, in some part perhaps as an escape from the general aggression and pain that gave that family it’s flavour. As a wee lad I spent most of my time with imaginary friends, acting out stories I created and, perhaps like Greybeard, reading and studying. Outside of the home, though, I was very present. But I admit, to this day I can be accused of having that “staring into the sky” disposition where I’m always looking to the possibilities of the future, always evaluating based on what could or should be, and less, as Yoda had it, “his mind on what he is doing.” Again, I feel a strong need to balance what i think are Neptunian and Saturnian (or Virgoan?) forces by developing a sort of realistic utopianism.
That said, I resonate deeply with what Greybeard says here: “I am a mystic, my life has in large part been a spiritual quest, not out of confusion about self, but rather from the recognition that "the world as it is" is founded upon illusion and falsehood.” Earlier in the same post Greybeard says he does not feel confused about his sense of self and has had his feet always firmly planted on the ground. To the point about “confused sense of self,” my response is something I should leave for now. To the point about having firmly planted feet on the ground, I don’t quite feel that either. But like what I think Greybeard is expressing in his quote, I’ve realized from ruminating over this thread that the higher qualities associated with Neptune in fact have been my root, my guide, in life. An intuitive connection with God (not formed in a Saturnian sense through a church, nor in a Jupiternian sense through philosophy and theology – just a deep, intuitive, “mystic” sense of connection) has been the key constant for me. Like Greybeard, I think of the material world, and the earth element – which we often think of as the most sturdy and “real” aspect of life – to actually be the most ephemeral. As Marx put it, “All that is solid melts into air” (though that’s an out-of-context quote). What’s really solid is the invisible, the ghostly, the unknown “spiritual.” So the image I have is of a person who isn’t rooted to the ground but is, instead, tethered to a thin golden thread that hangs like fishing wire out of the clouds. And here’s the Neptunian catch. This is how I feel: My solidity (salvation?) is that I feel tethered by a string, but I can’t actually see the source of the string. I look up to see what I’m tethered to and all I see is string reaching beyond my eyesight, eventually lost in some beautiful cloud.
Hence, I suppose, my continued wondering about what a person’s chart can confirm about their chosen path and purpose…
The birth time I have is given by my official birth certificate. It’s a very different time than my mother remembers, but in the end I trust the birth certificate. And if I had to guess I’d probably place Neptune exactly where he is in the birth-certificate chart: In the 3rd house, standing at the door of the 4th.
That said, the question of Neptune in the third house may be confused – or perhaps confirmed? – by the fact that my Mercury is in Pisces. Look at that!:Mercury in Pisces, ruled by Neptune – Neptune in the 3rd house, ruled by Mercury. It seems clear to me that key skills, proficiencies, preoccupations that make me who I am – the way perhaps his sword, shield and invulnerability make Achilles who Achilles is – are music, language and other concerns of the mind fashioned with a Neptunian bent. What does not resonate with me is the notion I read sometimes that Neptune aspects and/or Mercury in Pisces have the primary effect of confusing and debilitating the mind. My mind has been powerful and sharp from the very start, and I’ve spent the second half of my life sharpening it more and more. What I do see is that my mind tends strongly towards synthesis over analysis, music, metaphor and parable over logic, and inspiration over calculation. But, I have developed the other powers of the mind, what I think might be Virgoan powers(?), as well – analysis, logic, calculation, etc. – particularly by way of formal education, and I guess I attribute that to the influence of that Mercury-Saturn square.
The point: it’s hard for me to parse out the influence of Neptune here with the fact that my Mercury is in Pisces, but I certainly feel Neptune on the mind. And now, at 40, it’s turned out that a big part of my career involves communicating messages of love and empathy to sectors of the world that aren’t usually interested in such spiritual, or sentimental, themes (e.g., academia).
As I read about Neptune in the 4th house I find myself resonating with about 50% of the ideas. To be honest, when I think about the “family and the past” aspect of the 4th house I feel fettered by history – a history I’d rather sluff off and move forward from. (Is this I.C. in Sag?) And I worry that the natal is telling me: “And that’s the problem. Those anchors don’t just sluff off until you turn and deal with them in a deep, 8th house way…” That said, to agree with Caprising, as a child I lived – in the home – in a bubble-world of my own imagination, in some part perhaps as an escape from the general aggression and pain that gave that family it’s flavour. As a wee lad I spent most of my time with imaginary friends, acting out stories I created and, perhaps like Greybeard, reading and studying. Outside of the home, though, I was very present. But I admit, to this day I can be accused of having that “staring into the sky” disposition where I’m always looking to the possibilities of the future, always evaluating based on what could or should be, and less, as Yoda had it, “his mind on what he is doing.” Again, I feel a strong need to balance what i think are Neptunian and Saturnian (or Virgoan?) forces by developing a sort of realistic utopianism.
That said, I resonate deeply with what Greybeard says here: “I am a mystic, my life has in large part been a spiritual quest, not out of confusion about self, but rather from the recognition that "the world as it is" is founded upon illusion and falsehood.” Earlier in the same post Greybeard says he does not feel confused about his sense of self and has had his feet always firmly planted on the ground. To the point about “confused sense of self,” my response is something I should leave for now. To the point about having firmly planted feet on the ground, I don’t quite feel that either. But like what I think Greybeard is expressing in his quote, I’ve realized from ruminating over this thread that the higher qualities associated with Neptune in fact have been my root, my guide, in life. An intuitive connection with God (not formed in a Saturnian sense through a church, nor in a Jupiternian sense through philosophy and theology – just a deep, intuitive, “mystic” sense of connection) has been the key constant for me. Like Greybeard, I think of the material world, and the earth element – which we often think of as the most sturdy and “real” aspect of life – to actually be the most ephemeral. As Marx put it, “All that is solid melts into air” (though that’s an out-of-context quote). What’s really solid is the invisible, the ghostly, the unknown “spiritual.” So the image I have is of a person who isn’t rooted to the ground but is, instead, tethered to a thin golden thread that hangs like fishing wire out of the clouds. And here’s the Neptunian catch. This is how I feel: My solidity (salvation?) is that I feel tethered by a string, but I can’t actually see the source of the string. I look up to see what I’m tethered to and all I see is string reaching beyond my eyesight, eventually lost in some beautiful cloud.
Hence, I suppose, my continued wondering about what a person’s chart can confirm about their chosen path and purpose…
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