astro-logic: trans-saturnian planets

Therese

Well-known member
Hi all,

I would like to understand some astrological logic, and I appreciate if anyone is willing to help me clarify things.

I am reading "A Handbook for the Humanistic Astrologer" by Michael Meyer
http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Humanistic-Astrologer-Michael-Meyer/dp/0595089356

At one point he says that
The urge to go beyond the area defined and limited by Saturn is symbolized by the three trans-Saturnian planets, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto, which together function as the Triad of Transformation and Self-Transcendence. (p.205)
The mention of "triad" reminded me that earlier in the book, where he talks of minor planetary formations, I discovered that I had something he calls "semisextile/sextile/semisextile" between these three planets, Pluto, Neptune and Uranus (as the midpoint):

This formation is composed of two planets in sextile aspect with a third at their mid-point forming semisextiles to both ends of the sextile. It is representative of a highly intimate and abstract linking of centers for the release and expression of a very sensitive facet of personality. (p.184)
However, these are "outer" and slow planets, that affect generations, so I became curious how big an intervallum we are talking about. This is how I started to calculate it, but I am just not sure whether I get it right.

uranus in scoprio: 1975-1981
neptune in sagittarius: 1970 - 1984
pluto in libra: 1972-1984

Uranus
6 years is approximately 2190 days.
each sign has from 0-30
2190/30 =73 days
Uranus spends app. 2,5 months in each degree of scorpio

Neptune
14 years is app. 5110 days
5110/29 = 170 days
Neptune spends app. 5,5 months in each degree of sagittarius

Pluto
spent 12 years in libra
4380/29 =146 days
Pluto spent app. 5 months in each degree of libra

My Pluto is in 17° ibra, my uranus is 15° (almost 16°) scorpio and my neptune is 16° sagittarius. Am I right to say, then, that this formation betwen these planets lasted for approximately 2,5 months, or I am totally astray?

thanks,

T.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
The three planets are very slow-moving. Their mutual aspects are very long-lasting.

I was born in 1942 with Neptune and Pluto in a 5 degree sextile (angle separating them, 55 degrees). Today they are in the same relatioship, currently with a six-degree orb (angle 54 degrees).

The orbital periods of these two planets are in a 3:2 relationship; while Neptune completes 3 orbits around the Sun, Pluto will complete 2. Looking at the chart of the United States, in the year 2021 Pluto completes his first return while Neptune reaches his second opposition to himself (245 years after birth). In other words, since the signing of the Declaration of Independence, Neptune (in 2021) will have completed 1-1/2 revolutions while Pluto will have completed one. Pluto's velocity is highly variable due to his extremely eccentric orbital path.

One of the tasks of the astrologer in chart interpretation is to separate the wheat from the chaff. One must weigh the relative power-influence of the planets/aspects/formations in a given chart. The formation you cite is a minor formation in the first place, and secondly involves these three ponderous planets. Unless one or more of them is brought to focus in the particular chart (for example, is closely conjunct one of the Angles), then their personal influence through the formation would be considered a minor influence (it's a minor formation) and not assigned a high importance.

Aspect formations can be seen as psychological complexes (not necessarily with the negative connotation given the word "complex" in modern psychology). They show a strong interlinking of the planetary energies involved in which activation of one element triggers reactions in the other involved planets. Midpoint planets are "central" to the issue described by the formation; the issue centers on that planetary energy.

In your chart (late October 1978) Uranus has not really reached the midpoint of the formation; Pluto is about 1-1/2 degrees from Uranus, who is not yet placed between Neptune and Pluto. With such slow-moving planets I would require very close orb. However, with the 5-planet stellium, the importance of the central position of Uranus between Neptune and Pluto is increased somewhat. Probably the formation is activated at around age eleven-twelve; I would look for some expression/manifestation of the formation at that age.

Two planets stand out in the chart; Jupiter and Mars. Mars is final dispositor of the map, and Jupiter occupies the position of leading planet in the bundle pattern. The Scorpio stellium is the third key element in interpretation of this chart. I would "hang" my interpretation on these three pegs.

We note that the highly-focused and supremely powerful Jupiter is square the Scorpio stellium, and in fact is square the applying Sun. He is also on the antiscion of the Venus-Mercury coupling. Venus is retrograde, a condition found in only about 8% of all horoscopes -- it must be important. Meyer's description of Venus retrograde is a reliable one.

Hope this is helpful.

P.S.: It is standard practice to say that a planet in 15*44' of a sign is in the 16th degree, not the 15th. The span from 0 degrees to 1 degree is the first degree of a sign; the span from 29 to 30 is the 30th degree. You will find this way of defining degrees necessary if you choose to employ degree symbols (such as the Sabian symbols) and in assigning planets to their proper terms.
 
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Therese

Well-known member
Dear Greybeard,


Thank you for your reply, I really appreciate the time and the focus you have given to my question and to my chart. The weird thing is that I could feel you replying. I was at a gym waiting for my daughter to finish her practice, and I just had this feeling, like when you feel somebody is watching you, and funnily, my first thought was that it was you replying to this thread. so i checked my email notifications on my phone and there you were. How funny is that, lol?


I understand this is a minor formation, and I do try to be systematic in my approach, but I guess you know how it is when you are focusing on one thing and somehow there comes a detail or some disturbance, etc, that sort of shouts out at you or offering itself to you, or just giving this sense of "click".



I am still not sure what to do with my intuition, though, I guess it takes a lifetime, or almost a lifetime, to sort out something like that. It is such a tricky thing. When I don't trust my intuiton, it stares me in the face, I even have had some precognitive dreams that freaked me out when the events (mostly unrelated to me) actually took place. But when I do start to rely on my intuition, I get lost in the maze, and arrive at a point where I realize that I am not able to distinguish between what I feel will happen and what I fear or hope will happen. It's sort of an intricate dance, and I am still learning.


So, while I want to stay focused and systematic, I just got "seduced" by this minor formation, though I am not sure I am even close to understanding what it implies.


But I will leave it for now, and as you suggest, I will focus on my Jupiter, Mars, the stellium and venus retrograde. I did not realize it was quite rare, btw. I checked out what Meyer says, about ascetic tendencies, issues with preferring transcendence at the cost of contradicting life instincts and having a different type of aesthetics than what is mainstream. I don't think I can really deny any of it. I would not use these words, but I do understand what he is getting at.


Thanks again,


T.


PS: As for my 11/12 years, well, this would become a very very long post. To minimalize word count, I will just say that on the social level, it was the collapse of the Soviet Union, and my (formely socialist) country announced itself to be a free, democratic state. On the biological level, I became a woman. On the psychological level, first I thought I was going mad, then a relative turned up in my life who later became very important, she lended me her "esoteric" books, and in one of them I discovered that certain dreams and "fantasies" I had were written down almost word by word. Most of the book was new age stuff I could not relate to, but this bit I did, so I checked the footnote where the meaningful quotes were coming from. Then I went to the library and started to check out the books from that author, one by one. He is called Carl Gustav Jung and I consider he saved my life. I was still in a scary inner place, but I was not alone anymore. It was also that year (11 or 12), that this same relative took me to a "new age" kind of camp with people with eclectic beliefs and various backgrounds, and it was the first time in my life that I could speak about my inner world. My father died when I was younger, and my mother shuns away from anything psychological, I did not really have friends because kids found me weird, so I had felt rather isolated and locked up into myself. In that camp, though, I made some friendship (with adults 20-30 years older than me) that lasted well into my university years.
 

greybeard

Well-known member
I think you see the correlations between the formation and the multiplicity of events that came into your life just as the formation was brought to life by direction.

It is significant that this all happened at about that age. In psychology this timing of life events (happening toward the end of childhood) is termed "accidental" (as opposed to "essential" -- inherent or endowed --, both of which are shown astrologically). There are two types of accidental experience; the first is termed "dispositional" and occurs early in childhood, while the second is called "definitive" and occurs later. The first is said to strongly influence character development (being deeper because earlier) and the second -- to which class your events belong -- act as provocative or precipitating agents.

Thus, a minor formation (in this case) precipitated "definitive accidental" experiences in your life (which, per Meyer, should have a transformational character if his reading of the formation type is correct). These experiences "defined" your path for you, your natural disposition (charcter) having been largely formed by previous, earlier experience. The timing comes from the directed Sun, which reaches the center (Uranus) of the formation at roughly age 11-12 (Sun at 5, Uranus at 16 Scorpio). The direct activation of Uranus by Sun also energizes Neptune and Pluto and the whole complex is brought to manifestation.

Now that you have a collection of events correlating to a single major (solar) passage over the formation, you have a reference for the sorts of events/condtions that may occur in the future when heavy planets or the lords of the signs make new contacts.

I was in my early 40s before I discovered the importance of the intuitive mind and began to cultivate its use in my life. I now live intuitively, using the rational mind only for its intended purposes. I rely on the intuition for guidance in life... but then I am a hopeless mystic. Oh well.

I do not consider your formation -- strictly speaking and on its own merits -- to be a midpoint formation (the orbs are too wide and Uranus is not exactly centered), I would nevertheless treat it as such because it is also a valid aspect formation.

You might find descriptions of this midpoint formation interesting.
Check The Combination of Stellar Influences by Ebertin,
Midpoints by Munkasey, and Solar Arcs by Tyl. The three works give somewhat different perspectives on the potential meaning of the formation.
Naturally, you can also develop your own interpretations as well.

I had no idea that the orb of my powerful aura reached clear into Eastern Europe. Hmm...maybe I'm global. Funny story.
 

Therese

Well-known member
Hi greybeard,

thanks again for this.

I will try to put my hands on the books you mention.

I have been pondering about all that you say, and I was especially bugged by that Jupiter :) Probably because I am not very interested in the things that are usually first mentioned in connection to him (wealth, business, optimism, sports, hunting).

But I do realize he also symbolizes higher education, and I am a learning-junkie (I am so grateful I was born on the european continent, where free access to higher education is considered a basic human right).

This, however, would not make a "square" with my Sun, nor do I have a problem with philosophy or long-distance travel.

Now Jupiter, the law-maker, the head of gods? Despite his good reputation, I do associate him with the crusades, colonialization, even the inquisition. But I might be totally astray.

I do have an issue with totalitarianism of any kind, whether it is political or spiritual. I guess I can be considered a "spiritual" person, but the sacred I can be touched by resists to be contained by any system or be explained by any interpretation.

Jupiter also seems to symbolize the social sphere, and I also have a major issue in that domain. While I can trust individuals, I do not trust humankind so much. I do not see any indication that we are beyond "burning witches". People are still hungry to project their own power onto others, either in a positive or a negative way. I do not believe in "leading", it is the same coin whose other side is "scapegoating".

Maybe Jupiter also stands for sharing on another level, I mean, sharing with others with whom we are not intimate with. Turning back on intuition, do you think poor Cassandra would have had Jupiter square her sun in her chart?

I am coming back to your posts quite often, and each time I find something I had missed! :joyful:

T.

ps:

I had no idea that the orb of my powerful aura reached clear into Eastern Europe. Hmm...maybe I'm global. Funny story.
actually, I am currently in France :)
 

greybeard

Well-known member
You said something about "the collapse of the Soviet Union, and my (formely socialist) country announced itself to be a free, democratic state."

Jupiter is a primary force in your chart. You do have Sun square Jupiter, and Sun is lord of Jupiter. Jupiter is promittor.

Saturn is always restraining, but not always bad. Jupiter is always expansive, but is not always good. I have seen superlatively emphasiszed (and not so badly placed) Jupiter in severely schizophrenic charts. Jupiter is said to rule "religion"; could it be that the atheist as well as the cardinal is ruled by Jupiter? Jupiter rules bubbles that burst.

Greed, gluttony, false pride, self-aggrandizment in all forms, exaggeration and excess, smug over-confidence or misplaced trust....like all the other planets, Jupiter is not so simple as our text books would lead us to believe. All coins have two faces. Jupiter is a primary force in your chart (psychological makeup, life course).

As the directed Sun activated the minor formation in your chart, Jupiter was completing his first return.
 
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Therese

Well-known member
As the directed Sun activated the minor formation in your chart, Jupiter was completing his first return.
thanks for this, it helps me have a better grasp of something when I am able to associate a feeling tone or an atmosphere to it. I am mostly water, after all. otherwise I am just playing with theories. In order to separate potentiality from actuality, it really helps if I can put it in the context of my experiences.

Now I see how it was a time for Jupiter. He must have been doing something on the collective level, as well, because towards the end of socialism, there was a sudden and powerful revival of religion. First Christianity, then alternative stuff... thinking back on it now, it was actually like a weird mix of the Baroque and the hippie era... Suddenly everybody believed in something, which is probably a natural human need when you are left without a cultural context out of the blue. Everybody saw how socialism was dying and how it was a "bubble", as you say, and people were desperate to belong to something greater.

And I was no exception, I was also on my search for a context that helped put my own inner experiences in perspective. Depth psychology is not exactly religion, but it does acknowledge transcendence, and "there is method in 't". I guess that was the part Jupiter played in my life at that time?
 

greybeard

Well-known member
If we expand the meaning of "religion" to something more like "belief in something greater than the self," perhaps we come closer to what Jupiter means. In the case of atheistic communism, the former belief in God is replaced by an equally religious fervor placed in "science" and/or "the dictatorship of the proletariat." Jupiter is the planet of Understanding (Mercury accumulates knowledge) and broadens horizons.

The herbicide 2-4-D (agent orange) might be seen as ruled by Jupiter. Its effect is to stimulate rampant growth, beyond the capacity of the organism's ability to sustain -- resulting in death. Cancers, especially during their period of unrestrained spread, could be said to fall under the energies of Jupiter. Floods, which are "an excess of water," belong to Jupiter. Jupiter is, like all the planets, neither good nor evil. It simply acts in its own nature. If you have ever been to sea, you know that the ocean is simply the ocean; if it kills you in acting according to its nature, that is of no concern to the sea. Jupiter can bring a favorable breeze and following sea, or place you in the middle of the most fearsome storm.

A square betwee the Sun and Jupiter does not necessarily imply "troubles in long or foreign journeys" (although it often does, or can). To understand the true significance of the square in your chart, you must first study Jupiter, in your chart, in some depth (to the point of "understanding" what it signifies) and then compare its meaning to the particular meaning of Sun (in Scorpio, conjunct Uranus, etc)...then you will see what the square means. Your powerful stellium in Scorpio should make it easy, and natural, for you to undertake a deep study and get at the roots.

Travel, religion, social support, wealth... these are all superficial manifestations of what Jupiter truly signifies. Once you get at the essence of Jupiter, you will see that this planet colors every aspect of your life.

Jupiter has some essential dignity in Leo (by triplicity). He is in the term of Mercury (they are not naturally good friends -- in your chart they are in contraparallel and each on the antiscion of the other). His square to Sun (barring Moon-Neptune, a possibility, without having your chart in-hand) is the closest square in the chart (there is also Saturn-Neptune) and this dynamic relationship increases the importance of Jupiter (on a secondary level). He is in trine to Neptune, both in Fire and containing all the other planets in the bundle pattern. Jupiter rules Neptune. But as a guide to the study of your chart, I will repeat what I have already said: Jupiter is, unequivocably, without question, at the forefront of your life, in high focus, and is "supersized." His character or qualities are raised a power, for good or evil.
 
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