Beginner to Horary...Seeking your input.

Hi everyone,
Firstly let me apologise in advance for what will no doubt be a long drawn out post (it’s the academic in me), again I do apologise.
So with that out the way, I have been researching and studying the last two weeks all about Horary and 10 days ago I asked a question. I suddenly realized how underdone I was on the subject matter once I took a look at the chart and have spent the time since then spending as many hours in the day available to me in an attempt to understand. But like all students I require the assistance and guidance of those skilled and well versed/practised Horary experts out there to confirm; what I got right and offer some insight (them willing) into where I went wrong. Can I start with the first obvious question –
The placement of the two Significators:

The Question: “Will I meet Him?”
Context: I the querent have been tagged in several Instagram posts over the last few months by a friend. Over time and reading those posts I have begun to find the person whom posted them intriguing (questied) on an intellectual level; specifically the spiritual subtleties in their posts; I do not know them personally. Of course, they are easy on the eye (but as to quote you don’t put the horse before the cart; besides I’m not a crush/lusty type of person) so meeting and coffee would start as a good platform. Part of the interest sparks from posts where similar shared interests including hobbies/pets/outdoor activities were discussed. I of course responded to my friend (whom also does not know this person) in the comments and I’ve begun to think they are my kind of people (yes I too wonder the reasoning of my friend; she just changes the subject). Meeting wouldn’t be technically an easy endeavour given we live on other sides of the planet, although they have visited my country several times for both work and pleasure or so I’m told.

Here is some of the information so you do not have to scan back over the picture every five minutes.

First house Cardinal (Saturn) – Earth (Capricorn, ASC 13°) – Angular (1st House obviously)
Saturn – Querent Moon – Questied + currently perfectly applied at 17’ but not partile
13” separate them.
Retrograde: Saturn, Jupiter, Pluto, Venus
Jupiter in Fall (sign) Uranus in Detriment (house) Saturn and Neptune in Domicile
Peregrine: Sun, Moon and Jupiter
Under Sun’s beams: Venus 8° 42’ House of Joy: Venus (5th)
Mixed Reception: Sign/Exhaltion: Jupiter – Mars Moon: Applying Trine Sun 3.7°
Face and Term: Mercury Triplicity: Mars Day/Night
Accidental Dignity (Houses): Saturn (1st) Mars (3rd) Mercury (6th)
North Node exhalted in Gemini
Part of Fortune is exhalted in Mercury
Stellium 1st house

Aspects: From First House.
Querent Questied Others in First house
Saturn conjunct Moon Moon conjunct Jupiter Jupiter conjunct Pluto
Saturn conjunct Jupiter Moon conjunct Pluto Jupiter conjunct Terebellium
Saturn conjunct Pluto Moon conjunct Altair Jupiter trine Part of Fortune
Saturn conjunct Altair Moon trine Venus Jupiter trine Vertex
Saturn trine Venus Moon trine Part of Fortune Jupiter trine MidHeaven
Saturn trine Uranus Moon trine Vertex Jupiter sextile Neptune
Saturn trine Part of Fortune Moon trine Midheaven Pluto trine MidHeaven
Saturn trine Vertex Moon sextile Chiron
Saturn trine MidHeaven

Aspects from other Planets and Houses
Mercury opposite Ascendant Venus conjunct Aldebaran Mars Conjunct Neptune
Mercury trine Mars Venus conjunct Ain Mars sextile Ascendant
Mercury trine Uranus Venus sextile Chiron Mars opposite MidHeaven
Mercury square Chiron Mars squares Sun
Mercury square Lilith

Sun squares Neptune
Sun squares MidHeaven

From what I’ve read Lilly states desired outcome is achieved if:
The ascendant ruler or the Moon makes a conjunction with ruler of the 7th house – this should take place in the Ascendant, 11th or 10th but not the 7th. If the ruler of the 7th is in the Ascendant this sort of application the querent gets a result easily and a lot of goodwill is generated. I’ve read that if the Lord of the 7th is in the Lord of the Ascendant it is the questied who loves/interested the most, is this historically true?

I’ve also seen Abraham Ibn Ezra State: If the Lord of the Ascendant gave power to the Lord of the matter sought – what is sort will be gotten according to his wishes, is this the “reception” I’ve seen talked about or is it what Sahl states; If planet A falls into its own dignities and applies to aspect another Planet B. Planet A is pushing its own power which comes from being in its own dignity towards Planet B giving the planet the power to act. Called “Pushing Power” and is a gift of, power, a gift of virtue. When a planet is in retrograde it can still push thus generating success.

On another note I read: If the Moon, Sun, 7th house Lord, Venus and the 1st house Lord are all beholding one another it will be achieved?? I have Venus conjunct Sun; Moon, 7th, 1st conjunct each other; the Moon and Saturn trine Venus, with the Moon applying a trine to the Sun does this count as ‘beholding?

So with that in mind is this chart a Yes?

The most intriguing aspect that had me confused and feeling underprepared is the concept of the ‘questied’ as the more interested party (and the Stellium in the 1st house). Unless he has seen my Instagram account, my responses on his post, or has a fake account and is one of the several as yet unopened messages; he will have little to no knowledge of me and who I am. I of course have no idea what is going on at his end other than an apparent sudden influx of longer work hours to complete a project; and therefore no idea what he thinks or feels; does the chart give us some insight? If it is a yes, does the rest of the chart show the aspects of how it would perhaps occur including a timeframe, of which I am notoriously too afraid to attempt to calculate.

The Moon is perfectly (but not Partile) conjunct Saturn with only 14” separating them they are both at 17’. Lilly states that planets are not separating until they are 6’ apart. I ended up downloading several horary software programs (Horary Helper, AtroWin, WhatWatch, and Zet9) to confirm this and none stated Saturn and the Moon are separating, so that would make Jupiter the last previous aspect Moon made contact with, would this be an accurate statement and what does that mean for the past events?

What aspects do we move to from here, the Moon’s next applying aspect? I’ve read the Moon and her aspects until she leaves the sign (at time of chart 3° Aquarius) tell the development of the answer within time and its final outcome. The next applying aspect for the Moon is a trine in 3.7° to the Sun. I’ve read a Horary Astrologers blog where she goes over charts and suggests when the answer is ‘YES’ to disregard sign boundaries, frustrations, etc because the chart has said yes the only question is when and encourages simply using the Moon (or an angle) and bring it to the nearest angle or the aspect with a Significator despite what the textbooks say (she goes over several charts where the textbooks were wrong on timing) What is the general consensus on this?

The Sun is in peregrine and in its current location has no real power or direction to act under its own steam. But I have read it can achieve it if is supported by a much stronger planet one that has favorable aspects to the house ruler, which in this case is Mercury which is in its house of dignity and exhalted. Venus is also conjunct and just under the sunbeams at 8° 42’ in her house of dignity and house of joy, Lilly refers to if a planet is conjunct the Sun but in another sign, it cannot be under the influence of combustion or under the sunbeams, therefore the Sun is receiving pushing power from these planets, yes?

The Sun in my understanding represents ego, passion, pride, fieriness, love, ambition, powerful feelings, charisma and heart to heart, but what does it mean in terms of action from a 6th house/Gemini perspective I have no idea about the 6th house other than I am a retired Midwife and a current Marine Mammal Medic (but trust me they aren’t small nor domestic) and it talks of work; could that mean a meeting could occur under some kind of work circumstances or through animals? There is also a thought of the 6th house as detailed work or food/food markets. As for Gemini, it talks of communications taking place, traveling, the environment, vehicles, computers, media and socializing. I can’t even begin to imagine how those two concepts could possibly indicate anything.

The next question is; do you continue reading planets after that or do you stop simply at the applying aspect and not read the Sun is there a point where you stop? I know the traditional vs. modern argument about the outer planets but aside from that do you continue reading the whole chart or stop at some point, end of sign, end of houses, matters of the fourth from the questied?

I had also read somewhere on a forum that 13° of Capricorn and having it as the Ascendant is of special importance apparently does anyone know Why? I cannot find where I had read that. Could it have to do with the fixed starts below?

Capricorn 13° Ascendant and placement of Ascella has characteristics of Jupiter and Mercury. Is bringer of good fortune, lasting happiness, valuable gifts, love of women and is considered fortunate.
Capricorn 13° Ascendant and placement of Vega has the characteristics of Venus and Mercury. Is beneficence in nature, ideality, hopefulness, refinement, and changeability and is considered fortunate.

Other Maybe Notables: (I would love to know more if anyone can please tell me)
Part of Fortune and Vertex conjunct each other and trine Altair, Terebellium and Midheaven
Ascendant conjunct Vega
Stellium in the 1st house (I read it could do with the questied and their obsession, but I rather thought that odd considering it is my house so to speak).

Side note and something I found really interesting: The Saturn – Jupiter conjunct happens approximately every 20 years. The last time was in the 80s when we had the technology boom under the Airy Aquarius and in the 60s was the last one under the Earthy signs which is indicative apparently of the rather dramatic change in philosophical beliefs. The two cycles are split one of growth and one of cementing. We are currently in the first 10-year phase which is growth, expansion and general optimism with Pluto along for the ride at the moment. Essentially one Astronomer put it nicely: Saturn is the structure for change, with Jupiter exponentially expanding whatever it touches (which is usually good) and with both planets conjunct Pluto there is significant power being applied. Basically Jupiter is acting as an accelerant between them and breaking down the structures around us.

Thank you for reading my short novel and I look forward to any input.

I personally think you're looking too much into this chart. You want to know if you L1 and he L7 will ever meet. So what are L1/L7 doing? L7 is separating from L1 not applying and L1 retrogrades away from L7.

His L3 (direct contact with you to arrange a possible meet up) is Mercury, but mercury is in a pitted degree so is hidden and not going anywhere, which means no direct contact from him towards you. His L9 (whole signs) is also Jupiter which Saturn conjuncts. So the distance between you both would be restrictive in it ever being possible to meet in person.

From the chart, it doesn't look like you'll even ever have any direct contact with him, never mind actually meeting up for a coffee.

Aphorism
"2 dogs quarrel and the 3rd one falls asleep"
Ouranos

Thank you Ouranos you mention whole signs is that the house placement you use.

Ouranos, do you mind me asking, when doing Horary charts does one look at all planets and houses of both the querent and questied? Or just the ones relative to the question i.e. communication/lost items/people.
As an academic I I submerge myself in the text provided and if it says A + B = C, but it appears that may not always be the case in Horary. I have a lot to learn. Thank you for taking the time to reply.

NO, you wont because moon is separating from saturn
moon is him
you are saturn

Thank you tikana for taking the time to post. I understand that concept and read extensively about separating/applying and I understand the outcome of the chart. But what I found confusing and want to know more on was according to Lilly a planet is neither applying or separating for 6mins but rather in a state of perfection. So what does one do in instances like this going forward, look at it as separating because they are both significators and technically not applying. Apparently Lilly stated casting charts with this phenomenon is rare and probably why I can find very little on the topic. Say for curiosity sakes we were to look at that chart and the same perfection applied to say Venus and the Sun would it be different. Thank you again for your reply.

Bypass that. Moon passed saturn

Hello PrecBund,

Thank you Ouranos you mention whole signs is that the house placement you use.

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It's Chrysalis who mentioned Whole Signs.
I use Regiomontanus for Horary but other House systems for other purposes.
Houses represent our Earth experience and Planets our Heaven experience.
The Ancients used the 'Lots' in a more skillful way we do today, the most known being the 'Lot of Fortune' or 'Part of Fortune' and the Lots incorporated Houses in their calculations and were said to influence the 'Whole Sign'.
You can find a whole list of Parts on
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pfa/dreamhouse/attic/lots/lotslist.html

Ouranos, do you mind me asking, when doing Horary charts does one look at all planets and houses of both the querent and questied? Or just the ones relative to the question i.e. communication/lost items/people.

Click to expand...

Tikana already answered your question on this. The matter inquired about. But I will also pay special attention to Angular planets, even if they do
not seem to be related to the question itself because they will show something important related to the question. Angular planets are said to be 'Accidentally Dignified' and sometimes a confusion can arise where people think it is 'good' or 'bad'. No, it is important. Planets dignities or debilities will qualify the significators. For example, if you ask a question about a relationship and you have Venus in Leo in the 7th House it is good, in Taurus(night) or Libra(day) It is very good, but the fact that it is 'angular' signifies it is very important.

Kind regards,
Ouranos

first of all he is not single
merc is in his 1st house with double reception from moon
plus moon is applying to venus

let it go.

PrecBund, as a retired academic myself, I appreciate that sometimes we can over-think a question.

For horary 101:

Please make sure the chart is legible. We need to be able to read the planets' degrees-- with bifocals.

In a natal chart reading, all of the planets (and other sensitive points, &c) can come into play. Not so in horary. It's a situation of "just the facts Ma'am, please, just the facts." What are the two key relevant houses? So look at just the ruler of the querent, the quesited, and the moon. If there are planets in the house of the querent or quesited, they become co-rulers. Once in a while we seek out the planetary ruler of a given type of person or phenomenon, like Mars ruling surgeons, even if Mars doesn't otherwise show up in a question like, "Will my surgery be successful?"

Forget about the other planets and space objects.

Also in a natal chart, planets are stationary. Not so in horary. We look at faster and slower moving planets, retrogradation, and whether aspects apply, perfect, or separate.
In your situation, the moon is the faster moving planet, and it has separated from Saturn.

If I don't see an applying aspect, then I will look at reception (exchange of essential dignities,) occasionally antiscia, and whether there's a translation of light. If none of these pertain, it's a "no" answer.

We're also well advised to consult an ephemeris, to make sure there's no refranation or prohibition. (There will be a quiz on them.)

I do a simplified form of traditional horary. I use the modern planets as supplementary data points, where relevant, but not as sign rulers or co-rulers. Regiomontanus houses are traditional for horary but I basically read a forum chart as it comes. It is useful to look for planetary strengths (dignities) and weaknesses.

Wishing you the best on your astro-journey!

Horary 201:

Saturn (you) is nice and strong: domiciled, in its own terms, and angular. Having the quesited's significator in the house of your significator usually means, yes-- he's into you.

But actually this relationship isn't going anywhere because the moon is beyond its conjunction with Saturn-- and Saturn itself is retrograde. You're drifting apart.

The moon has no essential dignity in Aquarius, so he's not in a strong position.

We might look at Mars-Venus if this is a romantic interest, but again, no dice.

The kicker, too, is that Saturn in the first house (wearing his Dr. No hat, not as your significator) usually means that the matter wouldn't work out advantageously, regardless.

Not to worry-- he's been a good subject on which to practice your horary skills.

tikana said:

first of all he is not single
merc is in his 1st house with double reception from moon
plus moon is applying to venus

let it go.

Click to expand...

I already had I wasn’t lusting and wanting to meet someone doesn’t automatically mean you ‘want to be with them’ cart before the horse just because you like the look of someone doesn’t mean you automatically want to be with them have you not experienced the magic of a true intellectual relationship......I do like making friends with like minded people is that a crime. [deleted attacking comment - Moderator] My questioning was in terms to better understand the study of Horary nothing more nothing less.

Ouranos said:

Hello PrecBund,

It's Chrysalis who mentioned Whole Signs.
I use Regiomontanus for Horary but other House systems for other purposes.
Houses represent our Earth experience and Planets our Heaven experience.
The Ancients used the 'Lots' in a more skillful way we do today, the most known being the 'Lot of Fortune' or 'Part of Fortune' and the Lots incorporated Houses in their calculations and were said to influence the 'Whole Sign'.
You can find a whole list of Parts on
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pfa/dreamhouse/attic/lots/lotslist.html



Tikana already answered your question on this. The matter inquired about. But I will also pay special attention to Angular planets, even if they do
not seem to be related to the question itself because they will show something important related to the question. Angular planets are said to be 'Accidentally Dignified' and sometimes a confusion can arise where people think it is 'good' or 'bad'. No, it is important. Planets dignities or debilities will qualify the significators. For example, if you ask a question about a relationship and you have Venus in Leo in the 7th House it is good, in Taurus(night) or Libra(day) It is very good, but the fact that it is 'angular' signifies it is very important.

Kind regards,
Ouranos

Click to expand...

My apologies Ouranos for the confusion over the post. Thank you for the link I will go and have a look I appreciate it.
The angular houses make a lot of sense thank you. I can see how their application is helpful and aids in learning an answer. Thank you for offering that information.

waybread said:

PrecBund, as a retired academic myself, I appreciate that sometimes we can over-think a question.

For horary 101:

Please make sure the chart is legible. We need to be able to read the planets' degrees-- with bifocals.

In a natal chart reading, all of the planets (and other sensitive points, &c) can come into play. Not so in horary. It's a situation of "just the facts Ma'am, please, just the facts." What are the two key relevant houses? So look at just the ruler of the querent, the quesited, and the moon. If there are planets in the house of the querent or quesited, they become co-rulers. Once in a while we seek out the planetary ruler of a given type of person or phenomenon, like Mars ruling surgeons, even if Mars doesn't otherwise show up in a question like, "Will my surgery be successful?"

Forget about the other planets and space objects.

Also in a natal chart, planets are stationary. Not so in horary. We look at faster and slower moving planets, retrogradation, and whether aspects apply, perfect, or separate.
In your situation, the moon is the faster moving planet, and it has separated from Saturn.

If I don't see an applying aspect, then I will look at reception (exchange of essential dignities,) occasionally antiscia, and whether there's a translation of light. If none of these pertain, it's a "no" answer.

We're also well advised to consult an ephemeris, to make sure there's no refranation or prohibition. (There will be a quiz on them.)

I do a simplified form of traditional horary. I use the modern planets as supplementary data points, where relevant, but not as sign rulers or co-rulers. Regiomontanus houses are traditional for horary but I basically read a forum chart as it comes. It is useful to look for planetary strengths (dignities) and weaknesses.

Wishing you the best on your astro-journey!

Click to expand...

Waybread thank you so much for all that detailed information it was so insightful. Yes the academic in you will get you every time. I’m a bit of a hit the ground running person and I’ve just completed my masters and I wanted to sink my teeth into something equally as important but not as medical nor managerial Thank you for the info re an ephemeris, and refranation or prohibition. That’s some great further reading for me so again thank you.

waybread said:

Horary 201:

Saturn (you) is nice and strong: domiciled, in its own terms, and angular. Having the quesited's significator in the house of your significator usually means, yes-- he's into you.

But actually this relationship isn't going anywhere because the moon is beyond its conjunction with Saturn-- and Saturn itself is retrograde. You're drifting apart.

The moon has no essential dignity in Aquarius, so he's not in a strong position.

We might look at Mars-Venus if this is a romantic interest, but again, no dice.

The kicker, too, is that Saturn in the first house (wearing his Dr. No hat, not as your significator) usually means that the matter wouldn't work out advantageously, regardless.

Not to worry-- he's been a good subject on which to practice your horary skills.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the follow up 201.

It is Most definitely NOT a relationship nor any romantic interlude question on any level. I acknowledge I found his spiritual kindness during the worlds recent troubles lovely and he’s easy on the eye but that is all. I would have liked to have an intellectual conversation (over coffee would have been nice) but it’s not the end of the world if it didn’t happen and with me being Saturn in Rx shows I’m pulling away from the issue anyway.

The confusion and reason for the post was that I was stumped what all that L7 in L1 information (some merely mentioned conjunct others said in the ascendant etc) and then the was Lilly’s 6min arc of exactitude where a planet isn’t yet separating and I got all perplexed.

When I cast the question it took some time to actually decide on what to ask as I couldn’t really think of anything else so yes I agree it’s definitely a great one to start with again thank you for all your help.

Happy to help.

We see so many romantic questions on this board ("Does he love me?" ) that we sometimes assume that any "Will we get together?" question is of this nature. Even when it isn't.

waybread said:

Happy to help.

We see so many romantic questions on this board ("Does he love me?" ) that we sometimes assume that any "Will we get together?" question is of this nature. Even when it isn't.

Click to expand...

That makes sense, I’m guessing you see a lot of them. Even with a woman already in his life, I would have happily had coffee with them both I mean I’d be getting a 2 for one special surely; you know a buy one get one free kind of deal and would have met 2 like minded individuals (most likely).

But as the heavens have spoken, I’m back to reading. I think I still have a lot to learn and need to decide which philosophy (traditional/modern/or a mixture if possible) suits. I can relate a lot of what is said With traditional to my medical training transferring the “if this then that” and making examples so I can digest it easier but if I ever hear some call astrology easy again I might just throttle them

Thanks again for all the valuable info. I can’t wait to have a bit (well a lot actually) more knowledge under my belt to cast another chart on another matter, perhaps on a different subject though.

PrecBund said:

I already had I wasn’t lusting and wanting to meet someone doesn’t automatically mean you ‘want to be with them’ cart before the horse just because you like the look of someone doesn’t mean you automatically want to be with them have you not experienced the magic of a true intellectual relationship......I do like making friends with like minded people is that a crime. I’m sorry if my questioning makes you feel uncomfortable perhaps I need a disclaimer ‘That I ask questions I’m an inherent nerd’ or perhaps this isn’t an educational forum where questions can be asked freely or perhaps you need to chill a bit. My questioning was in terms to better understand the study of Horary nothing more nothing less.

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I am just boggled over your Saturn
Saturn retro in 1st rejects Sun. Okay fine - no physical attraction from you to him BUT why does Saturn reentering Capricorn begins to hate Moon right when jup and saturn about to conjunct. You never want lord 12th conj lord asce (very dark secrets/lies).
If he is indeed 7th not 11th.
And why theres attraction physical from him to you if we are talking frienship. I don't see 11th position from lord of desc or sun (general ruler of men)
Why is moon aspecting lord of 5th house?
Why is mars lord of 11th trining jup which is your 12th house lord and lord of 4th house. Theres def you dont know something.
Plus moon is in 2nd house (5 degree rule)
Ohh theres more.. see that sun lord of his 2nd? Its peregrine and cadent and moon (he) hates sun ($$$) while hes in your 2nd. Grrr yea...
There was def subtone on his side.
Way too much to dismiss a casual communication.
If he's 11th, then he's in the clear.
You need to figure out if he's sun or mars

Whatever
Figure it out.

Hello PrecBund,

For a good start, try this link where you can learn the basics and much more...
https://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary_intro.html

And this one in French, free where it summarizes all the basics.
https://www.coursastrologiebordeaux.fr/l-astrologie-horaire-et-elective/
To translate, use Chrome with Google, right-click and translate to English

Another great one from Patrizia Nava
http://www.astrologiaoraria.com/index.html
Again, translate from Italian to English

Christopher Warnock is easy and simple
https://www.renaissanceastrology.com/

Anthony Louis for reading charts in action
https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/category/horary/

And Ema Kurent, very pragmatic Slovenian astrologer
https://www.emakurent.com/en/bio/

Hope you enjoy a good start!

Regards,
Ouranos