The Chiron opposition Saturn generation: 1986-1989

......give or take a few months.

There has been some talk on this forum lately about the group born during the Capricorn stellium, and many of these people were born with Chiron in Cancer opposition Saturn in Capricorn.

In my extensive research into Chiron and its impact upon people's lives, this aspect of Chiron is the one I understand the least, so I am calling on anyone who has this aspect to provide me with some feedback.

I was born during a Chiron square Saturn in the late 1940's, so I get that totally - the necessity for mothers (and women generally) to adopt masculine and `fathering' roles.
The conjunction of Chiron and Saturn in and around 1965 brought the old masculine patriarchal order to account, and that is evident in the history of the time.

Now to the late 1980's -
This was a time of dissolution and destruction of many of the old structures - especially the communist bloc countries of eastern Europe. Of course, Uranus was also active in Capricorn at that time.

My question is this...................
For those of you who have this placement - Chiron opposition Saturn - how would you say it manifests in your life? What has been your relationship/experience of father/authority/hierarchical structures?

[Just musing about this aspect............
Perhaps amongst people with this natal aspect there is a rejection of what the father represents to them, and in response to this an inability to recognise the father/authority within themselves.
The trouble for me is that I know a number of young people with this aspect, and each one of them is totally different in their relation to father/authority.]

R4VEN said:

In my extensive research into Chiron and its impact upon people's lives, this aspect of Chiron is the one I understand the least, so I am calling on anyone who has this aspect to provide me with some feedback.

Now to the late 1980's -
This was a time of dissolution and destruction of many of the old structures - especially the communist bloc countries of eastern Europe. Of course, Uranus was also active in Capricorn at that time.

My question is this...................
For those of you who have this placement - Chiron opposition Saturn - how would you say it manifests in your life? What has been your relationship/experience of father/authority/hierarchical structures?

[Just musing about this aspect............
Perhaps amongst people with this natal aspect there is a rejection of what the father represents to them, and in response to this an inability to recognise the father/authority within themselves.
The trouble for me is that I know a number of young people with this aspect, and each one of them is totally different in their relation to father/authority.]

Click to expand...

My experience with the opposition has been an intense, serious awareness of Father and authority, and wanting to find security/answers in them while also being faced with repeated letdown and discontent with what I find, all the while having an inherent awareness that authority as it is presently established is not the answer and must be rebuilt anew if it's to be embraced at all. Essentially, I find authority to be flawed and very unreliable, and my Father image is uncertain at best -- a marked distrust, even. Yet, letting go and facing the wound of my own voice, my own authority, and trusting in and embracing that no matter how contrary it runs to the established authority and internalized image of Father, it isn't an easy task. I'm continually faced with self-doubt, and resistance, whether internal or external. The irony being the more I let go and assert myself, the more whole I feel, the more respect I seem to acquire from others as well as myself, the more secure I feel in myself, and I realize that to truly find my place in this world I must walk my own path rather than uphold tradition and the status quo. My healing and my gift rests in my words and the assertion of myself. My pain in life has been through the rejection of my voice and acquiescing to the demands of 'authority.' And in many ways my emotions had been inhibited as a result.

A caveat worth mentioning is that I have Uranus conjunct Saturn, and both are in opposition to Chiron. Frankly I don't know how much Uranus influences what I said above, though I can say that the opposition to Uranus has helped me tremendously in finding solutions that can then be expressed through Chiron, and thus my voice. Out of all the aspects in my chart, I've been most uncertain of Chiron opposite Saturn; and I'm sure there is more to be added to what was said above, but this all I have to offer at this time. I'll post my chart for curious minds.

stainedBlue, thank you for that input. It makes a lot of sense to me.
I especially like what you say here:

stainedBlue said:

though I can say that the opposition to Uranus has helped me tremendously in finding solutions that can then be expressed through Chiron, and thus my voice.

Click to expand...

The conjunction of Saturn and Uranus is fortuitous I feel, and rather than the Chiron-Uranus opp creating the need to check out, or opt out completely, it gives you a degree of creative drive............or if you like, an outlet for all that angst.

One of my nieces has this natal arrangement - with Mercury, Chiron conj in 1st very early in Cancer, opposing her Saturn-Uranus in the 7th. She is a gifted artist, but after she left school she was pushed into going to uni in order to complete a degree. Her parents - esp father - are tertiary educated and have very traditional ideas of what is meant by a `life path'. As I view her, she is just keeping her mouth shut and biding her time until she is able to make a living from her art work. But essentially she is sticking to her goals, which means that she will not be following any kind of traditional and expected life trajectory.

This cycle commenced,April 1966,@ 23 Pisces.

J.R

Chiron+Saturn = intergenerational conflict, as Chiron in Cancer challenges the aging Baby boomer parent in the depressant Capricorn. I sense a new generation gap grown up, due to the Great Recession rocked the status quo and changes in western countries' political power infrastructure. The young shall inherit the earth and does not want any more false promises of fake wealth, because the free market-socialistic credit economy is old and about to die off. The opposing forces of Chiron and Saturn sets it off.

I want to bring up a similar topic on the Chiron opposite Uranus generation of the early 1980s: Uranus the generational planet in Scorpio vs. Chiron in Taurus. How will it have an effect on generation Y indicates a decline in socioeconomic status (the vanishing middle class), broken relatonships, lack of stable finances (specifically in the recessions of the early 1990s, early 2000s & the current one we're dealing in) and difficulties in achieving independece in early adulthood left a bad mark on my generation.

What you describe is not so much about Chiron opp Uranus - which was present on and off since the late 1950's - as it is the expression of Chiron in Taurus. (Chiron opp Uranus is more about the mental stresses of the various Chiron wounds, and the ways in which some people tend to check out in order to avoid experiencing the wound itself.)

I'm sure there are threads on this - i.e. Chiron in Taurus - as I can remember contributing to them.
If you check out the last Chiron in Taurus generation - born between 1926-early 1934. The first of this generation were born during a time - prior to Oct`29 - when people were told anything at all was possible, and dreams could come true. From late in 1929 things began to unravel - major economic crash, followed (eventually) by world-wide economic depression, and then World War 2, and then the decade after war's end of very tight spending in order to rebuild nations affected. All this by the time this generation reached the age of 30.

R4VEN said:

What you describe is not so much about Chiron opp Uranus - which was present on and off since the late 1950's - as it is the expression of Chiron in Taurus. (Chiron opp Uranus is more about the mental stresses of the various Chiron wounds, and the ways in which some people tend to check out in order to avoid experiencing the wound itself.)

I'm sure there are threads on this - i.e. Chiron in Taurus - as I can remember contributing to them.
If you check out the last Chiron in Taurus generation - born between 1926-early 1934. The first of this generation were born during a time - prior to Oct`29 - when people were told anything at all was possible, and dreams could come true. From late in 1929 things began to unravel - major economic crash, followed (eventually) by world-wide economic depression, and then World War 2, and then the decade after war's end of very tight spending in order to rebuild nations affected. All this by the time this generation reached the age of 30.

Click to expand...

So very true! I am so frustrated as there really doesn't seem to be any way to win. You have to mortgage your future to go to school in order to get a job that pays something even sorta, kinda close to decent OR not go to school and make next to nothing. Either way, you'll spend a great deal of time behind the eight ball. It's exhausting.

That said, I wonder about Capricorns (like myself) that are living through this period. I was born in January 1981. Regan was still in office. Now, after years of frustrated efforts, those of us with Capricorn suns are having to make some really important decisions and in many ways, I feel that we shall be responsible for creating the new paradigm. I say this because of the Uranus square from Aries and of course the conjunction of Pluto as wells as transpersonal Saturn being back in the sign of our natal charts in Libra. Thoughts?

Munch, I was about to reply to your post, but I'd actually like to hear more from those who have the Chiron-Saturn opposition natally. This is a research-thread for me.

Munch, maybe you can create a separate thread on the specifics of Chiron in Taurus.

Those who have Chiron opp Saturn have Chiron in various signs. One of the (many) reasons I am asking about the opp between Chiron and Saturn is that my young grandson has this aspect in his chart, and I'm curious as to how it may manifest in the future.

I was born in 1966 and have Chiron conjunct Saturn in Pisces, think it's similar to the opposition and from my experience I feel it is about difficulties with authority figures, also the father. My father was largely absent and unavailable, but when he was there he was very dominating and imposing. (He also has Saturn in Pisces -conjunct mine- squaring his Chiron in Gemini - and he had a difficult and violent father too..)
I can't accept any authority imposed on me, unless it makes sense , am very rebellious and non-conformist..there is also a search for higher wisdom/authority which I can respect..

R4VEN said:

Munch, I was about to reply to your post, but I'd actually like to hear more from those who have the Chiron-Saturn opposition natally. This is a research-thread for me.

Munch, maybe you can create a separate thread on the specifics of Chiron in Taurus.

Those who have Chiron opp Saturn have Chiron in various signs. One of the (many) reasons I am asking about the opp between Chiron and Saturn is that my young grandson has this aspect in his chart, and I'm curious as to how it may manifest in the future.

Click to expand...

Indeed. I certainly don't mean to highjack your thread. I can understand your interest. BTW, haven't seen you in a bit so, "HELLO!"

Munch said:

BTW, haven't seen you in a bit so, "HELLO!"

Click to expand...

`Hello' back, Munch. I sometimes take time away - best for me as well as other users....

I've been thinking............
I just remembered the daughter of a friend of mine who has this placement natally. I thought of her relationship with her father - very close actually, as she became her Daddy's `little boy', her being the 4th girl in a row, and for a while the youngest in the family.

When she got to high school, it all began. By around her 10th year - during which she turned 15 - she decided to not attend classes which she found to be boring, or - in her words - `complete bulls**t'. When she did attend these classes she'd question the teacher and the authority of the teacher to impart the knowledge. Certain classes she refused point blank to attend. There were many `meetings' where her mother had to go to the school and have the principal tell her how rebellious her daughter was, and how this couldn't continue.

By the time she turned 16 she left school to work. She is remarkable in the workforce. She knuckles down and takes responsibility. She works in hospitality, so can see the positive outcome of what she does.

She was born in 1989 - Chiron-Mercury conj in Cancer, opposing Saturn-Neptune closely conj in Capricorn. She works extraordinarily well with that Saturn-Neptune conjunction, and although her teen years were very difficult in a lot of ways, she has used what she has experienced and risen above it.

R4VEN,
How do you perceive Chiron in retrograde to behave in the opposition with Saturn vs direct in opposition? I'm still not very familiar with Chiron, but my own impression is that aspects to it are more or less a sort of gambit, requiring an illusory sacrifice to gain through courage what was 'sacrificed' and thus receive the healing by finding the wound was an inherent part of the base character all along. However, I don't understand the difference between direct and rx when it comes to Chiron's influence. Also, I'm curious to know what your thoughts are on the illusory gambit view I mentioned.

stainedBlue said:

R4VEN,
How do you perceive Chiron in retrograde to behave in the opposition with Saturn vs direct in opposition? I'm still not very familiar with Chiron, but my own impression is that aspects to it are more or less a sort of gambit, requiring an illusory sacrifice to gain through courage what was 'sacrificed' and thus receive the healing by finding the wound was an inherent part of the base character all along. However, I don't understand the difference between direct and rx when it comes to Chiron's influence. Also, I'm curious to know what your thoughts are on the illusory gambit view I mentioned.

Click to expand...

stainedBlue, I have emboldened the section of your quote which I found to be very interesting, and most of all a succinct account of the way in which Chiron works!! I find it interesting also that you used the word `sacrificed', because in my own long experience of personally working with Chiron, that is the one word which best describes what is required from an individual if we are to take advantage of our Chiron placement - and aspects.

If you check out an ephemeris, you will see that Chiron goes retrograde quite often, and sometimes for months. In her written work on Chiron, Barbara Hand Clow states that she believes those with Chiron Rx are the healers in the population. I believe that we are all healers, given that to work with our own Chiron placement we have a need to help others with theirs.

Chiron Rx seems quite subtle to me, but then again, my own natal Chiron is in direct motion, so I can only observe how it seems to operate for others. If we look at it in relation to how planets operate in Rx motion, it seem that when Chiron is Rx the person's whole chart may be influenced more powerfully by their Chiron, and also they may have a more internal drive and striving to work with Chiron, rather than avoiding it at all costs.

I've just had a quick flick through my saved charts looking for those with Chiron Rx - especially those close enough to me for me to be able to observe their lives. The only one in my family who has Chiron Rx is my youngest son. He definitely has worked consciously with a kind of psychological/spiritual approach to life since the age of 13. His Chiron placement is difficult - Rx in Taurus in the 6th, conjunct south node. His health has always been just a bit under par, and this has forced him to `turn inwards'. He also has a packed 12th house, but that's another story altogether!

And as to the difference between Chiron direct opposing Saturn and Chiron Rx opposing Saturn, I have never actually asked myself that question!! My guess would be that the expression of this aspect would tend to be turned inwards, rather than outwards. (The girl I mentioned in my last post has her Chiron direct in Cancer, and she has always directed the opposition to Saturn outwards - where her `opposition' presents to her in her outer life.)

And thanks for that question, stainedBlue. Your contributions always make me think, and I like that

PS. I just checked your chart, stainedBlue...........that's a really interesting 4th house you have there!!!! And with Sun-Neptune conjunct, your experience of life itself will no doubt be very internal.

R4VEN said:

stainedBlue, I have emboldened the section of your quote which I found to be very interesting, and most of all a succinct account of the way in which Chiron works!! I find it interesting also that you used the word `sacrificed', because in my own long experience of personally working with Chiron, that is the one word which best describes what is required from an individual if we are to take advantage of our Chiron placement - and aspects.

If you check out an ephemeris, you will see that Chiron goes retrograde quite often, and sometimes for months. In her written work on Chiron, Barbara Hand Clow states that she believes those with Chiron Rx are the healers in the population. I believe that we are all healers, given that to work with our own Chiron placement we have a need to help others with theirs.

Chiron Rx seems quite subtle to me, but then again, my own natal Chiron is in direct motion, so I can only observe how it seems to operate for others. If we look at it in relation to how planets operate in Rx motion, it seem that when Chiron is Rx the person's whole chart may be influenced more powerfully by their Chiron, and also they may have a more internal drive and striving to work with Chiron, rather than avoiding it at all costs.

I've just had a quick flick through my saved charts looking for those with Chiron Rx - especially those close enough to me for me to be able to observe their lives. The only one in my family who has Chiron Rx is my youngest son. He definitely has worked consciously with a kind of psychological/spiritual approach to life since the age of 13. His Chiron placement is difficult - Rx in Taurus in the 6th, conjunct south node. His health has always been just a bit under par, and this has forced him to `turn inwards'. He also has a packed 12th house, but that's another story altogether!

And as to the difference between Chiron direct opposing Saturn and Chiron Rx opposing Saturn, I have never actually asked myself that question!! My guess would be that the expression of this aspect would tend to be turned inwards, rather than outwards. (The girl I mentioned in my last post has her Chiron direct in Cancer, and she has always directed the opposition to Saturn outwards - where her `opposition' presents to her in her outer life.)

And thanks for that question, stainedBlue. Your contributions always make me think, and I like that

PS. I just checked your chart, stainedBlue...........that's a really interesting 4th house you have there!!!! And with Sun-Neptune conjunct, your experience of life itself will no doubt be very internal.

Click to expand...

It's good to know I have the right idea for Chiron. I've been particularly curious about Chiron direct, since I have the rx version of it, and viewing the expression of Chiron in others has proven to be somewhat difficult.

When I was younger I was also very inclined to questioning the authority of those that were the 'assumed authority,' and frequently questioned rules and regulations set in place by the various 'authorities.' I often met with the excuse "that's just the way things are," or something to that effect, which was very discouraging. Eventually I felt entirely defeated and largely stopped speaking for roughly three years. Not entirely silent, but significantly less vocalization than I had been employing.

For myself, at least, what you said about rx Chiron being more influential on the native, it's applicable. I've definitely gone out of my way to take it on rather than run from it. Reclaiming my voice has been anything but a walk in the park, and I'm still not out of the woods yet, but it has required substantial effort on my part and a lot of courage that I've actually felt impelled to put forward. Perhaps this is thanks to my Mars? There seems to be added emphasis on speaking my truth via the skipped step Uranus square to my nodal axis too -- though, this is probably a topic best left to another thread.

It's curious that you mention an inward psychological/spiritual approach. I've largely approached life the same way from a very early age, looking within myself for answers. I recall around age 10 coming to the conclusion that we have the universe within us, that we are the all, and the all is us. Reconciling that with my dogmatic Christian upbringing was a challenge, since I had actually found what was preached to be in many ways contrary to what the good book actually said, and often questioned it much to the chagrin of those around me that were immersed in the faith as it's preached.

Concerning my 4th house, at least in relation to this thread: my Parents have frequently been absent, or have been otherwise emotionally distant throughout my life. I've found them to be unreliable in their authority as responsible Parents because of that, and I've often found myself burdened with having to take on responsibilities that weren't mine to bear. This seems to be a Saturn in 4th type of experience, I think? Quite the loaded 4th nonetheless, and it's worth mentioning Neptune-Saturn is parallel by declination, and the same goes for Sun-Uranus, though with Sun-Uranus I suppose it further reinforces the already existing conjunction? But yes, my world is largely buried beneath the surface. A very rich, complex world.

R4VEN said:

......give or take a few months.

My question is this...................
For those of you who have this placement - Chiron opposition Saturn - how would you say it manifests in your life? What has been your relationship/experience of father/authority/hierarchical structures?

[Just musing about this aspect............
Perhaps amongst people with this natal aspect there is a rejection of what the father represents to them, and in response to this an inability to recognise the father/authority within themselves.
The trouble for me is that I know a number of young people with this aspect, and each one of them is totally different in their relation to father/authority.]

Click to expand...

I am of 1989, and I have Chiron in cancer opp Saturn in Cap... My father just went away when I was little, he felt detached. When we met again the relationship just didn't work.
All my entire life I had the issue of why my father left the family, It was difficult to me to swallow, despite I didn't had any feeling toward my father, that represented a conflict within my self worth.

Other thing is that Saturn in bad aspect with Chiron makes the wound even more slow to heal. It represents a delaying in the work of healing that wound. But finally It will go away, or you will learn how to manage it without experiencing odd feelings.

stainedBlue, thank you for articulating your experience of this placement.

I have to point out that your experience of `authority' from such an early age is an apt description of having Chiron in the 10th house. Consider what a 10th house Chiron can bestow:
* having a distant/authoritarian father (which may also be described in other areas of the chart)
* having a fractured and/or hazy idea of where your job/career is taking you
* experiencing issues with people in authority both at school and in the work-place
* feeling disconnected at your work-place - or by the work which you do
* needing to engage in work which is useful/healing/meaningful to you
* needing to work alone or in isolation - as in working in the wilderness on research, or working on the land

And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

I can see that your own experience of Chiron (Rx) opp Saturn is an extension of your natal Chiron placement - in the 10th.

virgo18 said:

I am of 1989, and I have Chiron in cancer opp Saturn in Cap... My father just went away when I was little, he felt detached. When we met again the relationship just didn't work.
All my entire life I had the issue of why my father left the family, It was difficult to me to swallow, despite I didn't had any feeling toward my father, that represented a conflict within my self worth.

Other thing is that Saturn in bad aspect with Chiron makes the wound even more slow to heal. It represents a delaying in the work of healing that wound. But finally It will go away, or you will learn how to manage it without experiencing odd feelings.

Click to expand...

virgo18, thank you for sharing your own experience of Chiron opp Saturn.
Your experience is perhaps the definitive experience of one with this placement, although certainly not experienced by all who have this placement.

Consider also that Chiron in Cancer describes the wound of believing that you are not loved enough, or maybe you are not loveable, so a father who leaves is like salt being rubbed into that wound.

And I agree with what you say in your final paragraph.
Martin Lass, an astrologer who deals with Chiron almost exclusively, states that Chiron opp Saturn people avoid dealing with their wound - of father and/or authority - but I have found the opposite to be true of the late 80's generation. Perhaps what he may have meant is that it is such a deep wound that it does take a long time to work it through without it being constantly re-activated.

R4VEN said:

Consider also that Chiron in Cancer describes the wound of believing that you are not loved enough, or maybe you are not loveable, so a father who leaves is like salt being rubbed into that wound.

Click to expand...

Oh yeah, this is me all over. My Sun is closely conjunct Chiron in Cancer, there also both in opposition to Saturn/Neptune and Uranus. Not only that but chiron/sun is in my second house - Im of 1989.

There's never been a close connection with my father, he is the embodiment of Saturn without a doubt. Ex-millitary man, very strong work ethic, concern about financial/career security; he's worked overseas for most of his life including mine.. here for a couple of months, then gone for a few more.

So with this in mind, it was never possible even at a young age to connect with him on a deeper level, and as i've grown older i've come to understand how he express's his love to me through financial support rather then emotional support, my mum although not as distant as my father is similar.. so i've never really felt 'loved' in a sense, although i know they do. I do have a lot of respect for him however because i struggle so much with accepting responsibility, work ethic and in general establishing myself in this world.. i lack structure.

I don't know much in regards to Chiron so im not sure how much i can contribute. But i suppose if anything positive has developed from a seemingly crushed sense of self is that i've found understanding through spirituality and philosophy in relation to who i truly am, which has paved the way for a process of self-acceptance.

EDIT:

R4VEN said:

[Just musing about this aspect............
Perhaps amongst people with this natal aspect there is a rejection of what the father represents to them, and in response to this an inability to recognise the father/authority within themselves.

Click to expand...

This sounds quite true for myself. Although in recent years i've come to understand my fathers actions a little more, and in turn have developed a new respect for authority which has changed my perspective on many things, i guess in a manner of speaking im beginning to see myself as apart of that which i had rejected previously, the separation is only imagined.

EDIT:

Added chart in-case it says more then i was able too

virgo18 said:

Other thing is that Saturn in bad aspect with Chiron makes the wound even more slow to heal. It represents a delaying in the work of healing that wound. But finally It will go away, or you will learn how to manage it without experiencing odd feelings.

Click to expand...

I certainly hope that's true. I feel like I've made zero progress towards moving past mine.