How 'bout Ayn Rand, everyone?

This thread was formed to stop a chain reaction I caused with a single picture in the humor section. I tried funny cat pictures and being nice to get us back on track with humor. You want to get political? Fine! Let's get political. Ayn Rand. What do you have to say about her? Is she your atheist equivalent to Jesus? Do you despise her and all objectivists with a burning passion? Do you not have a clue who I'm talking about, but think I have a cool avatar(that's very nice of you, thanks for the wonderful compliment)? Whatever it is you think of her, you're about to get offended.

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Well, what do you expect from an aquarius who grew up watching the failure of socialism to do? NOT form a political philosophy that is the nearly exact opposite of socialism?

I tried reading Atlas Shrugged, but it was really slow going. Just to set the score straight, the right went running to Rand, not the other way around. I find that I have a somewhat similar ideology to my life, and I think it's because she had aquarius sun and capricorn moon, and I have such a heavy influence from both those signs. But, like most human beings, I can get fed up with someone when they constantly spit on the art and science you study, and insult your political party at all times.

I consider myself to be a christian in the truest existing form of the word left to mankind: I believe in and follow the principles of the teachings of Jesus, as they are according to the laws of Karma. Jesus never asked anyone to worship him. He was just a very enlightened man who tried to shine that light across the world. Ever notice that early churches have the zodiac painted on the cielings? You should look up Origen when you get a chance. He was a gnostic christian whose writings were banned by Emperer Justinian, because they spoke of reincarnation. If the people were aware that they all came from God, they would eventually realize that they had no need of the church or Justinian's rulership.

...And that's why I'm a libertarian instead of an objectivist. By the way, Ayn Rand's chart is available. I forgot where I found it, but I could easily find it again. I remember she had aquarius sun, capricorn moon, and leo ascendent.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Rand,_Ayn

Jesse Booth said:

Well, what do you expect from an aquarius who grew up watching the failure of socialism to do? NOT form a political philosophy that is the nearly exact opposite of socialism?

I tried reading Atlas Shrugged, but it was really slow going. Just to set the score straight, the right went running to Rand, not the other way around. I find that I have a somewhat similar ideology to my life, and I think it's because she had aquarius sun and capricorn moon, and I have such a heavy influence from both those signs. But, like most human beings, I can get fed up with someone when they constantly spit on the art and science you study, and insult your political party at all times.

I consider myself to be a christian in the truest existing form of the word left to mankind: I believe in and follow the principles of the teachings of Jesus, as they are according to the laws of Karma. Jesus never asked anyone to worship him. He was just a very enlightened man who tried to shine that light across the world. Ever notice that early churches have the zodiac painted on the cielings? You should look up Origen when you get a chance. He was a gnostic christian whose writings were banned by Emperer Justinian, because they spoke of reincarnation. If the people were aware that they all came from God, they would eventually realize that they hasd no need of the church or Justinian's rulership.

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Not all are aware that the word Temple = Latin meaning place of measuring Time
even more obscure is the meaning of Church,
whose etymology is descended from the Old English word Kirk,
meaning Ruler of Circles
which clearly means astrological time keeping.


NOTRE DAME CHARTRES ZODIAC

I've never read any of her works. I don't really know anything about her other than she was a Russian Aqua Sun who use to work in costuming in Hollywood on film sets.

People say I'm a natural who has ideas very much like hers, only I don't know what her ideas were other than it is labeled "objectivism."

I don't think there's anything wrong with being selfish, as that is the rational and most dignified thing to be. To be selfish is not to take anything away from others, but to look after the self and survive and be free. If people were only selfish enough to take care of themselves and not expect/demand others like the government to provide for them then we'd go back to the Golden Age.

I personally hate socialism/communism and followers with a passion. I find that type of toxic thinking and adherence to tyranny just absolutely inexcusably stupid and backwards and by which, I fully reject.

Gemini Mercury Marx is absolutely right- religion is the opiate of the masses. That's in reference to how much Christianity (religion in general) has given spiritual promises to appease people of their dire situations in the physical world and to trick people into thinking the material world is actually immaterial and it is the unknown spiritual world that matters. But that is how power is gained and tyranny runs rampant- with the blessing of Christian ideologies that teaches rejection of the body (material world) and exalt the spirt (intangible world). This gives warrants relinquishment of personal power to external power (authority, government, society) to determine fate. Absolutely irrational.


The material world is really all we have to go by and reason/logic is the tool set we have utilize to navigate our world. "God" or any other "higher" beings were only created to give the illusion of a sense of equality and this is highly appealing for those who lack power to manipulate their fate. It's certainly a great way to keep slaves in shackles by not fighting in the physical world because somehow they think "God" has their back when they go into the spiritual world.

As someone who is split nearly perfectly between earth and air signs, I think that may be one of the most brilliant posts I have ever read on this forum. That summed up the entire objectivist mindset in an absolutely idealistic manner. I call it idealistic because it is a perfect expression of truth, undiluted by any attempts to behave in a "diplomatic" manner. And that, my friend, requires idealism.

Air and Earth is like dust in the wind! I count from Sun to Saturn and I'm all Air except Water Moon and Earth Mars.

I never think of myself as idealistic, maybe more realistic, but thanks, I take that as a very high compliment!

I personally like Ayn Rand's chart. I actually like Cap Moon people...well, all Earth Moon people, because it shows a great sense of being grounded.

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You wrote:

I consider myself to be a christian in the truest existing form of the word left to mankind: I believe in and follow the principles of the teachings of Jesus, as they are according to the laws of Karma. Jesus never asked anyone to worship him. He was just a very enlightened man who tried to shine that light across the world.

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So here are some of Jesus' strongest messages:
Luke 3:11
Matthew 25:35-40.
Matthew 5:2-9

Here is Ayn Rand:

"If any civilization is to survive, it is the morality of altruism that men have to reject."

"Evil requires the sanction of the victim."

"Money is the barometer of a society's virtue."

(from http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/a/ayn_rand.html)

"One can't love man without hating most of the creatures who pretend to bear his name."

And said about Ayn Rand:

"She has a great attraction for simple people who are puzzled by organized society, who object to paying taxes, who dislike the "welfare" state, who feel guilt at the thought of the suffering of others but who would like to harden their hearts. For them, she has an enticing prescription: altruism is the root of all evil, self-interest is the only good, and if you're dumb or incompetent that's your lookout." (Gore Vidal, Comment, July 1961)

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand

Wow thank you for JupiterAsc information about time keeping and temple. Also Jessie information about reincarnation.

I have long suspected church and some religions selling salvation when salvation is actually free and can be achieved through our own enlightenment particularly through reincarnation. In fact I don't deny the principles in the bible but truly many people had manipulated it meaning to a point I have now needing to understand and observe more instead of blind faith taking it word by word. I had studied many religions as my personal interest. Christians in practical life by far not the cleanest heart people. Going to church reading bible and calling themselves Christians not making them all better people. It is the life within the essence of their internal life that I am observing which I saw that religion saved them not. At the end I abandoned the idea of one true god as I see those who practiced such had killed, blooded more than those being honest and loving to their neighbours without judging their religions. Those who attended church every Sunday but reluctant to be a simple hard working staff at work, as One Day Only Holy man disgusted me.

I still take Christianity itself as good but those fellowing it do not always understood but manipulating the messages to their own desire of power and their own ideation of holiness above all others. Very rarely reflecting on their own imperfections is the critical weakness that lead them to the wrong path of understanding.

I like Ayn Rand although I've only read The Virtue of Selfishness. I tried to get into her novels but they weren't that interesting.

So far, I haven't met anyone or read any true criticism of her work. It seems like people just have a visceral, negative reaction to her, accusing her followers of being teenagers or highlighting the fact that she supported some sociopath or something. The point is that very few people seem to critically engage with her actual ideals, which is suspicious to me.

That being said, I think it's a given that we're selfish. It's just a matter of how willing you/we are to admit to it. Most people don't give a **** about anyone else with the exception of their family members, and even that's not a guarantee. But more importantly, I think Ayn Rand focused on an interesting point, which is that we should be selfish. In fact, selfishness is a requirement for even being of use to someone else. I don't know where all this goody-goody altruistic BS comes from anyway...

I must read Ayn Rand when I have time. Selfishness is basic principle for survival for all living creatures in most situation but not too extreme as no one can grow and survive his or her best without helping each other. Giving out yourself above and beyond this selfish principle is for sure one very godly quality. You see that in animals as well a lot of dogs and cats actually adopt other little orphan animals as well. And surely plants and trees have given much without asking much from us.

[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]this is taken from the "attraction program".......[/FONT][FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]

"[/FONT][FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Selfish vs. Needy. [/FONT][FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Selfish means that you care enough about yourself to get your needs met; selfishness is a choice. Needy means that your unmet/unknown needs drive/motivate you -- there's no choice. If you're being needy, your probably not being selfish enough. When you become selfish enough, you handle your needs."

[/FONT]But essentially selfishness goes against the universal ethical code of man, there's just no redeeming characteristics about it. Look at the synonyms for it....egocentric, egoistic, egotistical, mean, self-centered, self-indulgent, self-seeking, and ungenerous
Ouch!

Poyi, WeCareALot-- maybe its a 6th house thing-- the principle of service. If you serve people with no expectation of reward, you are repaid fourfold. At least.

I hope you will look up the biblical quotes I cited for Jesse before dismissing the words of Jesus-- not the practices of the churches' more hypocritical members.

And here is another one, from Rabbi Hillel, "If I am not for myself, who will be? And if I am only for myself, who am I? And if not now, when?"

Kind of combines Jesus and Rand, don't you think?

Also researchers in animal behaviour are increasingly learning how cooperation among members of the same species or between species improves their survival chances. Darwin did not preach "the selfish gene." Humans are, from their inception, social animals.

waybread said:

Poyi, WeCareALot-- maybe its a 6th house thing-- the principle of service. If you serve people with no expectation of reward, you are repaid fourfold. At least.

I hope you will look up the biblical quotes I cited for Jesse before dismissing the words of Jesus-- not the practices of the churches' more hypocritical members.

And here is another one, from Rabbi Hillel, "If I am not for myself, who will be? And if I am only for myself, who am I? And if not now, when?"

Kind of combines Jesus and Rand, don't you think?

Also researchers in animal behaviour are increasingly learning how cooperation among members of the same species or between species improves their survival chances. Darwin did not preach "the selfish gene." Humans are, from their inception, social animals.

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I agree that humans are social animals, but I don't think sociability necessarily precludes selfishness. In the end, it's all about personal survival and happiness, right? With the exception of romantic and familial love, we don't form social groups for the other person's happiness; I was always under the impression that we form communities and societies because they're more efficient and can offer protections to the individual that solitude cannot (this is especially true pre-modern times).

Also, I think it's important to clarify that selfishness doesn't stop people from serving or giving to others. Of course I'll help someone if I want to or care about them, but it would be difficult for me or someone else to do that if I didn't care for myself first.

The highest form of service would have to be Piscesian energy. To the extreme holding on with blind faith actually needed to create miracle....If you imagine the situation a person spitting on your face, calling you names, punching, kicking you abusing you mentally, physically, touching you with poo, wee, blood on their hands, all sort of exotic bacteria, virus, vomits etc yet you hold onto the belief that this person will become better as long as you kept what you doing all. Even you are being put all the way down at the lowest form of being disrespected. You must hold on to this very blind belief in the power of services and love opposition of 6th as 12th. But of course boundaries Saturnian energy is equally needed such as hard work, persistent endurance, also needed to manifest within a structural beneficial change that will prevent this self sacrificing behaviour to be your very own self undoing and delusion of being a special hero. Humbleness is actually a fantastic quality from earth sign such as Virgo in earth sign. Service is only meaningful, purposeful, constructive when you actual maintain your very own humbleness.

"Those of you who are strong should try to deal with the failings of the weak and not just to please yourselves...." Romans 15:1
In other words, selfishness is a luxury of the young and healthy...

Inline, I don't know what sort of life you have lived, but mine has been very different from the "selfishness" you describe. I am now in my mid-60s, looking back on over 4 decades of adult life. I worked for several different employers, lived in different places (including 3 countries) have been married twice and have two adult children. My husband and I are now retired. I know what it is like to be very poor, as well as what it is like to have a comfortable middle-class income.

I have had times of no friends, many friends/acquaintances, and a few good friends. I have had times of feeling alienated from my community at work and where I've lived, and times of being an integral part of them.

Having friends and being part of a community is better.

I contribute to it in large or small ways because I want to. I am not the type of person to give a complete stranger my last plate of beans or the shirt off my back. But if I contribute to other people in some way, then I reap intangible rewards.

One of the biggest rewards is simply knowing that I've made a positive difference, even a small difference, in somebody else's life.

Surely you must have experienced this?

Perhaps we could also consider enlightened self-interest; which is where I part ways with Libertarians and some elements of the Republican party. They seem to be upset about so-called "income redistribution," which is often another way of saying they don't want to pay taxes to support children's public schools, general hospitals, unemployment insurance, and the like. (Although apparently they are OK with any redistributed income that benefits them.)

I think this is very short-sighted.

I benefitted from getting a good public school education. My parents paid taxes towards it, but these were hardly sufficient to support the municipality's school system. Basically other taxpayers in my area put me through public school, including the taxpayers with no children.

Today I don't mind some of my income being redistributed to put today's school children through my local schools. My children are adults, yet I know that my greater community benefits from an educated population. I benefitted once, so it is only fair that now I pay something back.

Public education systems are economic growth engines. The menial jobs available to people with no education pay poorly, are declining in availability, and they do not generate economic growth.

And this is but one example. If I don't pay taxes to support the local fire department, they won't be there for me if my house catches fire. If my taxes don't support the highway department, pretty soon the highways will be full of axel-breaking pot-holes. It isn't like Ayn Rand's army is going to pave the local streets.

So giving to my community via (gasp, shock) taxes is actually a form of enlightened self interest. Naturally I don't want my hard-earned tax dollars to be wasted or unnecessary-- but that is the level at which the debate should take place, not as an utter horror of "income redistribution."

From a sociological perspective, once even a tight-knit band of hunter-gathers reached a population of about 1000 people, they needed to subdivide, because without a system of central government, they couldn't function in terms of distributing hunting grounds, plant-gathering sites, and the like. With today's urbanized, complex, densely populated society, this isn't an option, so various levels of central government are the only solution we've developed to keep society functioning smoothly.

"Personal survival," Inline? None of us would stand a chance of surviving without normal social relationships based upon various forms of reciprocity. Think about it.

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I have at no point in my time here on the forum ever said that I adore Ayn Rand in any way. I respect her while also disliking her. She spat on astrology repeatedly, and she spat on the libertarian party twice as often. I believe in the libertarian ideology, not the objectivist philosophy. And now for an explanation of where this argument started at: the obama thread, when i mentioned that I'm a libertarian.

Jesse Booth said:

...And that's why I'm a libertarian instead of an objectivist. By the way, Ayn Rand's chart is available. I forgot where I found it, but I could easily find it again. I remember she had aquarius sun, capricorn moon, and leo ascendent.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Rand,_Ayn

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Both of her luminaries are just totally afflicted by position. Suns in an awful sign for the sun and an awful house and the moon is in it`s worst sign and in one of it`s worst houses. To top it off her Mercury is tightly conjunct her moon in the house of Virgo and the sign of the moons detriment. Her moon is completely suffocated, indicates a very frigid person.

No wonder she was such a terrible person, the foundational energy of her chart is completely corrupted. Even her strongly placed Mars in Scorpio or Venus in Pisces can`t save her.

The Aries Jupiter makes sense too, although it`s generally well placed in Aries, Jupiter in that sign can make the native extremely selfish.