AppLeo
Well-known member
I'm done with this...
Why would you even want to accurately predict your death??? If I knew I was going to die, say...in 20 years on the 5th of June I would be freaking out. I'd rather just not know.
Can You Really Predict Death?
- Thread starter Allisonmarie862
- Start date
I'm done with this...
Why would you even want to accurately predict your death??? If I knew I was going to die, say...in 20 years on the 5th of June I would be freaking out. I'd rather just not know.
david starling
Well-known member
I'm done with this...
Why would you even want to accurately predict your death??? If I knew I was going to die, say...in 20 years on the 5th of June I would be freaking out. I'd rather just not know.
But, if your prediction was wrong, you'd be freaking out over nothing.
Senecar
Well-known member
I think prediction is like medical operation, you do your best, but it is not 100% cure, or 100% accuracy.
I think predicting one's own death does not work, as from the case of the author of the book "Astrology of Death".
Our psyche or subconsciousness do not want to know the accurate prediction of its' own death from its self-defence mechanism, so that somehow it will choose to predict wrongly most of the times.
I think predicting one's own death does not work, as from the case of the author of the book "Astrology of Death".
Our psyche or subconsciousness do not want to know the accurate prediction of its' own death from its self-defence mechanism, so that somehow it will choose to predict wrongly most of the times.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Study and apply the astrological methodology
such as shown by Vettius Valens in THE ANTHOLOGY http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/vettius valens entire.pdf
Sahl & Masha'allah et al http://www.bendykes.com/sahl.php
Persian Nativities http://www.bendykes.com/persians.php
Senecar
Well-known member
Study and apply the astrological methodology
such as shown by Vettius Valens in THE ANTHOLOGY http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/vettius valens entire.pdf
Sahl & Masha'allah et al http://www.bendykes.com/sahl.php
Persian Nativities http://www.bendykes.com/persians.php
Thank you for the link. Good resources.
waybread
Well-known member
There is one technical question, "Can you do it accurately?"
And another ethical question , "Even if you could do it accurately, should you do it?"
The old astrologers' methods have little relevance today due to the decreasing infant mortality and high life expectancies in most of the developed world.
And another ethical question , "Even if you could do it accurately, should you do it?"
The old astrologers' methods have little relevance today due to the decreasing infant mortality and high life expectancies in most of the developed world.
Senecar
Well-known member
Death is just another event for an individual, be it final. It should be just same as other events in one's life such as birth, starting school, graduation, getting a job, marriage, retirement etc.
So, it could be predicated with same accuracy as other events apart from predicting one's own death - which doesn't seem work at all, hence futile exercise.
Should you do it? - It depends on each and every case. One could ask same question to all those events in life - should you predict when someone will get married?, divorce?, retire? or lose job? - what if the native will get depressed by the prediction he will get divorce, or lose job, and kill himself? Should you then do any prediction at all?
So, it could be predicated with same accuracy as other events apart from predicting one's own death - which doesn't seem work at all, hence futile exercise.
Should you do it? - It depends on each and every case. One could ask same question to all those events in life - should you predict when someone will get married?, divorce?, retire? or lose job? - what if the native will get depressed by the prediction he will get divorce, or lose job, and kill himself? Should you then do any prediction at all?
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waybread
Well-known member
Senecar, you do not write like someone who has been around death very much. Believe me, it is not "just the same" as "starting school, graduation, getting a job, marriage, retirement, etc."
I live in an area with many retirees. For most, it was a retirement destination. We have one of the oldest demographics in my province. This means that death in old age is a very real fact of life out here. I've personally known a dozen friends and acquaintances who have passed away during the 9+ years we've lived here. This isn't counting my brother (cancer,) parents (cancer, probable heart attack or stroke,) and my other senior family members.
Death for seniors is often preceded by long, debilitating illnesses, such as wasting away from incurable cancer. Even if modern drugs dull the pain, the patient lives with ongoing loss of capabilities, nausea, and loss of control over body functions like waste elimination. Less frequently death is sudden, with a heart attack. Then there is the slow "death" of the personality via dementia. (We've got a dear friend with mid-stage Alzheimers.)
With younger people today, death happens from severe injuries (like combat duty, motor vehicle crash,) or drug overdoses. Gunshot wounds are a leading cause of death to young people in some parts of the US.
Unlike a child starting school or graduating, death can leave a lot of emotional and financial devastation in its wake. A sudden death of a parent from a drug OD can leave young children orphaned. It can leave a surviving spouse destitute, notably if the deceased were the major breadwinner and left big unpaid bills. Not to mention the severe emotional pain that death of a child can cause grieving parents.
I could continue in this fashion, but you get the point.
Someone who hasn't experienced the realities of dying from nearby experience has no business assuming that death prediction is just another form of predictive astrology.
To anyone who has not read the book Tuesdays With Morrie, I highly recommend it. Then go volunteer in a nursing home or palliative care facility; or regularly visit someone you know who may be in one.
I live in an area with many retirees. For most, it was a retirement destination. We have one of the oldest demographics in my province. This means that death in old age is a very real fact of life out here. I've personally known a dozen friends and acquaintances who have passed away during the 9+ years we've lived here. This isn't counting my brother (cancer,) parents (cancer, probable heart attack or stroke,) and my other senior family members.
Death for seniors is often preceded by long, debilitating illnesses, such as wasting away from incurable cancer. Even if modern drugs dull the pain, the patient lives with ongoing loss of capabilities, nausea, and loss of control over body functions like waste elimination. Less frequently death is sudden, with a heart attack. Then there is the slow "death" of the personality via dementia. (We've got a dear friend with mid-stage Alzheimers.)
With younger people today, death happens from severe injuries (like combat duty, motor vehicle crash,) or drug overdoses. Gunshot wounds are a leading cause of death to young people in some parts of the US.
Unlike a child starting school or graduating, death can leave a lot of emotional and financial devastation in its wake. A sudden death of a parent from a drug OD can leave young children orphaned. It can leave a surviving spouse destitute, notably if the deceased were the major breadwinner and left big unpaid bills. Not to mention the severe emotional pain that death of a child can cause grieving parents.
I could continue in this fashion, but you get the point.
Someone who hasn't experienced the realities of dying from nearby experience has no business assuming that death prediction is just another form of predictive astrology.
To anyone who has not read the book Tuesdays With Morrie, I highly recommend it. Then go volunteer in a nursing home or palliative care facility; or regularly visit someone you know who may be in one.
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Senecar
Well-known member
I don't deny the emotional, financial and all the negative side of death you mentioned. However, that's the emotional side of the death - fear, sadness, depression and pains, of course there are dark side of the event, like there are dark side of divorce, losing jobs, going bankrupt, retirement, breaking-ups etc, sure the difference of these life events can be enormous.
But when you see the life as a cycle or journey, and accept the fact that every human being will die one day, then it just becomes another event of life.
It depends how you look at it, and which part you focus on.
But when you see the life as a cycle or journey, and accept the fact that every human being will die one day, then it just becomes another event of life.
It depends how you look at it, and which part you focus on.
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Prediction of death is possible
when one studies, learns and applies the techniques
as the ancient astrologers intended
HOWEVER
few are willing to do the study
and
few are willing to consult reputable astrological professionals
who are specialists in that specific field
an amateur online astrological "learning forum" that has no coherent "classes"
is unlikely to impart much if any useful information
so
read and study the ancient texts
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david starling
Well-known member
There's a less materialistic interpretation of "death", described as "going through Transition". The question would then be, when is a MAJOR transformation indicated in a Chart? And, what in the Chart would support or oppose transformation at that time? Doesn't have to be about "death", but it would be included among the possibilities. Choosing a different sort of transformation could even be a way of avoiding leaving the Material-plane at that time--"Change or else!"
david starling
Well-known member
for example continue overconsumption of alcohol - "transition" sooner rather than later
Other examples would include getting more physical exercise, reducing bodyweight, working less hours, getting more sleep, eliminating substance-abuse and other types of risky behavior (meaning anything that interferes with your body's immune system, or increases the risk of physical injury), changing to a less stressful and/or more enjoyable profession, even if it means less monetary reward, etc. It's NOT easy to succeed in these types of transformations in your own life....MUCH easier to advise others to do so!
There COULD be some value in using Chart information to choose the right time to make a SUCCESSFUL transition, thereby avoiding "the Big One". So, instead of predicting death, it would be about how to successfully time any action that would make death less likely to occur. A "New Year's Resolution" isn't a reliable method, unless the Astrological timing is right for that particular individual.
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waybread
Well-known member
Senecar, what exactly has been your experience of close proximity to people who are going through the throes of dying? You do not write like a person who has had much experience with dying people close-up and personal.
Of course, everyone who lives will die. Big "Duh-uh" there.
But to compare dying of pancreatic cancer or of major wounds sustained on the battle field with sending a child to school or a high school graduation is either callous in the extreme, or extremely ignorant.You need to think through the very physical experience of a terminal illness. I just don't think you're there yet.
One big issue with death, is that from our "side of the veil" death is a permanent end to our present material existence. That's it. Finito. Curtains. End. I have metaphysical beliefs about what happens after physical death on the earth plane, but I would be very unwise to paste those on a lonely, terrified patient who did not want to die. If you haven't seen this kind of fear in a patient, I recommend that you volunteer at a hospital sometime soon.
I'm a retiree who gave birth to two children through "natural" unmedicated childbirth. I went through a nasty divorce, and horrible experiences with one job that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemies. Death is unlike any of these. And you should know that.
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waybread
Well-known member
Let me repeat that back in the Days of Yore, human life expectancy was very low by modern standards. Infant mortality was high. One thing an ancient astrologer might do prior to reading a baby's horoscope was simply to "determine" whether a child was likely to survive childhood. So many of them didn't. So any discussion of adult marriage, career, income, and so on would be totally moot if you didn't think a baby would live.
This simply is not the case today. Just recently, life expectancies of white blue-collar Americans has been declining, due to so-called "illnesses of despair" such as drugs overdoses, alcoholism, and suicide. But an educated white middle class American today can expect to live into his/her late 70s. (Life expectancy= the age by which half the members of your demographic cohort have died, and half remain alive.)
Yet the planets are not doing anything substantially different today than they did in ancient times-- or even during the early 20th century in the developed world, when the average white male life expectancy was in the 50s.
You can try to predict death through horary methods, but this is an extremely dodgy business. For one thing, the 8th house has multiple meanings; and you cannot read death transparently off the 8th house. One likely outcome of such a chart is that the patient will survive. The 12th house rules both hospitals and deception as possible by the querent. So any would-be Sorcerer's Apprentices out there are strongly advised to introspect on both their motives and expertise.
Astrology's primary purpose is to help human beings live our best lives. It isn't here to scare the bejeezus out of vulnerable, frightened patients or their loved ones; nor to encourage an amateur astrologer to play God with human lives.
This simply is not the case today. Just recently, life expectancies of white blue-collar Americans has been declining, due to so-called "illnesses of despair" such as drugs overdoses, alcoholism, and suicide. But an educated white middle class American today can expect to live into his/her late 70s. (Life expectancy= the age by which half the members of your demographic cohort have died, and half remain alive.)
Yet the planets are not doing anything substantially different today than they did in ancient times-- or even during the early 20th century in the developed world, when the average white male life expectancy was in the 50s.
You can try to predict death through horary methods, but this is an extremely dodgy business. For one thing, the 8th house has multiple meanings; and you cannot read death transparently off the 8th house. One likely outcome of such a chart is that the patient will survive. The 12th house rules both hospitals and deception as possible by the querent. So any would-be Sorcerer's Apprentices out there are strongly advised to introspect on both their motives and expertise.
Astrology's primary purpose is to help human beings live our best lives. It isn't here to scare the bejeezus out of vulnerable, frightened patients or their loved ones; nor to encourage an amateur astrologer to play God with human lives.
david starling
Well-known member
Senecar, what exactly has been your experience of close proximity to people who are going through the throes of dying? You do not write like a person who has had much experience with dying people close-up and personal.
Of course, everyone who lives will die. Big "Duh-uh" there.
You need to think through the very physical experience of a terminal illness. I just don't think you're there yet.
One big issue with death, is that from our "side of the veil" death is a permanent end to our present material existence. That's it. Finito. Curtains. End. I have metaphysical beliefs about what happens after physical death on the earth plane, but I would be very unwise to paste those on a lonely, terrified patient who did not want to die. If you haven't seen this kind of fear in a patient, I recommend that you volunteer at a hospital sometime soon.
I'm a retiree who gave birth to two children through "natural" unmedicated childbirth. I went through a nasty divorce, and horrible experiences with one job that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemies. Death is unlike any of these. And you should know that.
Most religions, and Modern Spiritualism, assert that "Reincarnation", either in human or animal form, follows materialistic death. Christianity has a one-life/one-death paradigm, where an immortal Afterlife is lived either in "Heaven" or "H*ll". Modern-science promulgates a "death is final" axiom, which rules out death as a transition to a new existence. Problem is, we have no way of knowing which idea is True--it's all about which version is the most acceptable to each individual.
waybread
Well-known member
David, my point was somewhat different. It is, that regardless of what one thinks happens after death, the physical fact of the body's shutting down its organs is what "dying" means. The physicality of dying can be very painful, humiliating, frightening, and lengthy for the patient. To mitigate pain today, patients are sometimes given large doses of pain-killers, on the grounds that addiction is a minor issue compared to serious pain. I am not being morbid about this, but factual.
Maybe the "lucky" ones die suddenly of a heart attack but then a sudden death can be extremely hard on loved ones who had no time to prepare for it either emotionally or financially.
For reasons like these, I don't think death prediction belongs in the same category as other types of prognostication at all. To suggest that it does really trivializes the process of dying.
Maybe the "lucky" ones die suddenly of a heart attack but then a sudden death can be extremely hard on loved ones who had no time to prepare for it either emotionally or financially.
For reasons like these, I don't think death prediction belongs in the same category as other types of prognostication at all. To suggest that it does really trivializes the process of dying.
david starling
Well-known member
It's a morbid topic, unless you transmute it into a prediction of when to stop doing "business as usual" and attempt to find a more life-affirming path. If it's too late for that, I agree with you--no betting on how long the process of dying will take.
[An attempt at humor to lighten things up]--> When informed by his Astrologer that he would would reincarnate as a Pisces-Sun, the Aries-Sun individual burst into tears!
Here's an variation on an early Bob Dylan lyric: "Those who aren't busy living, are busy dying."
[An attempt at humor to lighten things up]--> When informed by his Astrologer that he would would reincarnate as a Pisces-Sun, the Aries-Sun individual burst into tears!
Here's an variation on an early Bob Dylan lyric: "Those who aren't busy living, are busy dying."
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Do not underestimate the effort it takes to verify a reliable time of birth
Without a reliable time of birth, nothing is astrologically predictable
and so
Modernists claim predicting is not possible
and it is obviously not without a relaible time of birth