Confused about Pluto

Maybe we should set up a poll? We can ask the community if they identify with Pluto ruling Scorpio or not. Maybe it can be made a sticky somewhere where we can get a lot of people to participate indefinitely....

Ok, I started a poll!

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82115

StillOne, I couldn't vote on your poll, because I view Pluto as the modern ruler of Scorpio, and Mars as the traditional ruler. I think both have value.

Also, how do you ensure that nobody votes more than once? (I have my suspicions....

waybread said:

StillOne, I couldn't vote on your poll, because I view Pluto as the modern ruler of Scorpio, and Mars as the traditional ruler. I think both have value.

Also, how do you ensure that nobody votes more than once? (I have my suspicions....

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I don't think you can vote more than once per username. I could be wrong. Maybe we can get someone to clarify.

Moderators helped change the wording in the poll to account for the inclusion of Mars as potential co-ruler of Scorpio

Anyways, we know the poll is going to come out like 985772 to 12, kind of unnecesary .

AstroLogical said:

On the surface the winner of these sessions may appear to be the one who has acquired the largest library of quotes and links to paste into the forum. Yet despite the impressive display of the work of others, I'm not seeing a whole lot of original thought. Perhaps this is not the place for that.

I believe there continues to be a tone of thought suppression by those more inclined to hold the Traditional line, as if they are trying to prevent an exodus into chaos. This phenomenon often seem to be a characteristic in "THOUGHT," (for some) whether it is political, religious, scientific, etc.; to hunker down and hope the world does not change—much.

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I find this here, kind of funny.

So it is not thought suppression, we really don't mind the pluto talk if there was something stable to present.

But when in practice, the point that you are using traditional techniques all the time for horary, NOT using pluto as ruler of Scorpio, then the arguments become pointless.

There has been quotes of authors doing "research", yet none posted. Zero.

Waybread has been defending pluto all along, yet not using it as ruler of Scorpio (giving the excuse of "co-ruler")----

This is why the "session" is pretty much over, because we can argue all you want and those who don't contribute can praise the people defending the posts, but the point is proven by the inadequate modern techniques that you yourselfs refuse to use. But if arguments are going to be changed in order to suit the best answer, then there really is not point in discussing it.

We could all start twisting up concepts and ideas in order to make an argument. It just doesn't really work. When you break down most of the arguments in favour of pluto, they collapse like house of cards.

StillOne said:

Who participating heavily in the thread has planets natally in Scorpio?

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I have no planets in Scorpio but Pluto opposes my Sun, squares a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn and trines my Asc. . Chart attached.

A NOTE TO ALL: I have just spent about an hour going back and RE-THANKING posts that I had thanked before as while I was looking for some material I noticed that a post I had thanked did not acknowledge that.

My profile shows that the last date I thanked a poster was 2 weeks ago. That is absolutely, positively, wrong! I hope that the time I spent re-doing that has not been a waste. I do not think that I got to all of them.

I have made a screen grab of this post.

Bob

I logged out and went to some other sites, came back and checked for the work I had done earlier and it was nowhere to be found!

So I did it over again. 3 times trying to give thanks to the same posts.

Strange stuff going on here. A few days go I received an email from iForumServices <iforumservices@gmail.com> of this site advising me to post my message to the forum when I had made no attempt to post anything. I emailed back asking what their email to me was about because I had made no post and asking if my account had been hacked. The reply was that nothing had been hacked. But then why the strange email to me?

I decided to look at my own chart to see if there is an appropriate aspect taking place for the situation (missing thanks) I am experiencing.

MOST APPROPRIATELY TRANSITING PLUTO AT 285°39' IS ON MY NATAL MERCURY-MARS MIDPOINT AT 285°04'!!! And I am certainly angry about this.

Pluto working in real time and in real life.

Dirius said:

Anyways, we know the poll is going to come out like 985772 to 12, kind of unnecesary .

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Maybe so, but so far it's 50/50 (only 4 people have participated). However, some have noted their concern over an oversimplified poll. Initially I had 4 answers in mind but then I decided on a very simple poll to avoid confusion and also one that attempts to answer a few questions in one fell swoop.

The poll thread also allows you to present your case. Since you're an astrological expert, maybe you'll be able to convince others of your position? Possibly the mods can reset a users answer to allow for participants to change their mind at a later date.

Dirius, do you have any meaningful natal planets in Scorpio?

StillOne said:

Maybe so, but so far it's 50/50 (only 4 people have participated). However, some have noted their concern over an oversimplified poll. Initially I had 4 answers in mind but then I decided on a very simple poll to avoid confusion and also one that attempts to answer a few questions in one fell swoop.

The poll thread also allows you to present your case. Since you're an astrological expert, maybe you'll be able to convince others of your position? Possibly the mods can reset a users answer to allow for participants to change their mind at a later date.

Dirius, do you have any meaningful natal planets in Scorpio?

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Sun, Mercury and Saturn--

Why are you asking if people have planets in scorpio ?

Dirius said:

Sun, Mercury and Saturn--

Why are you asking if people have planets in scorpio ?

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I think it may be easier to present your case if you actually have energy in Scorpio (or possibly an aspect from Pluto?). Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you would be able to understand the nature of the energy better than say someone who doesn't have anything going on in Scorpio...

StillOne said:

I think it may be easier to present your case if you actually have energy in Scorpio (or possibly an aspect from Pluto?).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you would be able to understand the nature of the energy better than say someone who doesn't have anything going on in Scorpio...

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Most 'have an aspect from pluto' of some kind

Since Scorpio is on one of the twelve houses for everyone's natal chart
then the fact is everyone has 'energy in Scorpio'

so
everyone
would 'be able to understand the energy better'

but then this is the 'confused about pluto' discussion

Re: Back to astrology

Dirius said:

So in the end mars relates much better with it. At least I see it that way

But I do understand why some authors would be bent on applying Scorpio to pluto, since scorpio is indeed a sign that could fit with it. It is just that mars already does better with it.

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Okay, here's the problemo I have with your style of logic:

You've just presented 5 (!) qualities where Mars matches Scorpio well:

- temperamental
- confrontational
- intensively sexual
- vengeful
- jealous/possessive

By that same logic, just for fun's sake, I could as well argue that Mercury should be the ruler or at least co-ruler of Aries, because they have these 5 qualities in common:

- speed and impatience
- agility
- changeable, fickle
- youthful
- optimistic, hopeful

alexandre said:

Just to say quickly that I admire some who continue to debate again and again.

For me it's impossible to debate with some who has understand nothing (0%) about my previews messages. But it's okay.

I'll try to convince when I would like to do it or not. After all it 's not a matter. Pluto is secret and maybe it's much better like that.

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Take it easy. Just see it as a testing ground for your own concepts. If your concepts can't survive a little criticism then you are probably operating on shaky grounds and you might have some homework to do. These conversations and debates are an excellent oportunity to expand (if you are a newbie) and refine (if you are a pro) or even rethink (if you are a fundamentalist) your understanding of astrology. Carpe diem!

Re: Back to astrology

Dirius said:

Yeah I also enjoy the myths discussion.

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Yeah, I'm totally into myth-busting, too.

AstroLogical said:

At the end of the day Pluto is still in the game and I would urge any and all to continue to study, observe and work with it. Astronomers may relegate Pluto to nothing more than a speck of dust and some Traditional astrologers may rush to agree with them but the concepts that have evolved in Modern astrology to establish Pluto's place in the astrological solar family are and will continue to withstanding the test of time.

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And lets not forget Uranus and Neptune! There's not just one celestial body upsetting the traditional applecart as this thread my imply. Pluto just seems to be an easy target because it has been downgraded. But lets not forget that some of the points against Pluto that have been mentioned here don't apply to Uranus or Neptune.

Re: Back to astrology

muchacho said:

Okay, here's the problemo I have with your style of logic:

You've just presented 5 (!) qualities where Mars matches Scorpio well:

- temperamental
- confrontational
- intensively sexual
- vengeful
- jealous/possessive

By that same logic, just for fun's sake, I could as well argue that Mercury should be the ruler or at least co-ruler of Aries, because they have these 5 qualities in common:

- speed and impatience
- agility
- changeable, fickle
- youthful
- optimistic, hopeful

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I have to disagree, because going with the myths (which are the basis for the attributes of the planets):

pluto is not temperamental
pluto is not confrontational
pluto is not intensively sexual

While it is true that any individual may present (even in the myths) certain of this characteristics from time to time, these are not traits pluto presents often:

- Pluto isn't confrontational, because usually Hades tries to tricks the person he has an argument with, rather than "confront" them directly. An example is in the myths of Orpheus or Heracles, in which rather than confront them, he tricks them or bargains with them.

- Pluto is not intensively sexual, not at all: from all the gods, it is the one with the least sexual liasons, sires no children (associated with infertility), gains his wife by trickery rather than seduction, and only gets to spend 1/3 of the year with her.

- Pluto isn't temperamental, because he is not quick to get angry. In ALL the myths, pluto is always calmed when facing any problem. He is always quick to bargain and trick, rather than act with a temperament and get angry.

The pluto from the myth doesn't present neither of those 3 attributes of Scorpio.

Pluto is usually very calm when he has to deal with greek heroes or other gods

I agree the "schemer" part goes well with scorpio, as the revengfull one. But scorpio tends to be more "agresive" in its dealings.

waybread said:

To me, modern astrology is not a watered-down or defective version of traditional western astrology. (With the caveat that there is defective modern astrology, just as any other type of astrology can be defective in the hands of non-experts.) Modern astrology assuredly has its roots in tradition, but it has branched off in sufficiently different ways from its parent that it should be understood as a separate branch--just as Vedic astrology is acknowledged to be a separate branch from traditional western astrology, despite the former's common Hellenistic roots.

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Yes, we could see modern astrology as a more expanded and much richer version of astrology. The depth and insight and new angles that the outer planets add to typical chart interpretation are hard to deny. The shift from traditional to modern is similar to upgrading from black/white television to color television.

Dirius said:

I find this here, kind of funny.

So it is not thought suppression, we really don't mind the pluto talk if there was something stable to present.

But when in practice, the point that you are using traditional techniques all the time for horary, NOT using pluto as ruler of Scorpio, then the arguments become pointless.

There has been quotes of authors doing "research", yet none posted. Zero.

Waybread has been defending pluto all along, yet not using it as ruler of Scorpio (giving the excuse of "co-ruler")----

This is why the "session" is pretty much over, because we can argue all you want and those who don't contribute can praise the people defending the posts, but the point is proven by the inadequate modern techniques that you yourselfs refuse to use. But if arguments are going to be changed in order to suit the best answer, then there really is not point in discussing it.

We could all start twisting up concepts and ideas in order to make an argument. It just doesn't really work. When you break down most of the arguments in favour of pluto, they collapse like house of cards.

Click to expand...

Empirical evidence should trump everything. Sadly, you don't seem to accept it.

unique_astrology said:

I have no planets in Scorpio but Pluto opposes my Sun, squares a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn and trines my Asc. . Chart attached.

A NOTE TO ALL: I have just spent about an hour going back and RE-THANKING posts that I had thanked before as while I was looking for some material I noticed that a post I had thanked did not acknowledge that.

My profile shows that the last date I thanked a poster was 2 weeks ago. That is absolutely, positively, wrong! I hope that the time I spent re-doing that has not been a waste. I do not think that I got to all of them.

I have made a screen grab of this post.

Bob

Click to expand...

Maybe everyone here has only a limited amount of 'thank you' currency and you've run out of it?