Ethics of third party charts

waybread said:

In a way, don't most horary questions involving other people become 3rd party questions? "Is my boyfriend cheating on me?" involves the querent, the BF, and possibly another lover. A chart showing translation of light or frustration oftentimes involves a 3rd party. "Will the bank finance my mortgage on the house I offered to buy?" can involve several people at the bank, beyond the buyer and seller.

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This is an over-literal translation of the thread topic that is neither helpful nor clever.

I've glanced through the 4 horary primers I have on hand, and couldn't see where any of them argued against 3rd party questions; though the authors cautioned the astrologer against undertaking a question of dubious morality or to be used for an unethical purpose. In fact, the chart should show if the question is tainted.

So the answer isn't a clear "yes or no," but a matter of judgment and sensitivity.

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This is mostly an issue with the sources one uses, Umar, Sahl, and Bonatti all state that third party questions are something that astrologers should not take up. They warn against questions that are not the querent's business or do not involve someone the querent has business being concerned about.

That is not to say that they are the absolute arbiters of truth and judgment. While many of us would probably not have a problem with questions like "Where is my brother and how is he doing?" (certainly even those who are estranged from their siblings have a personal interest in their well being) but I know I wouldn't respond to a question asking "Where has my wife run off to." She's probably left for a good reason and we should just leave it at that.

Are you familiar with Lilly's letter to the student? (copied in Barclay, Horary Astrology Rediscovered, p. 292.) Basically Lilly says that the astrologer should be a devout, discrete, and humble person.

"...afflict not the miserable with terror of a harsh judgment; in such cases, let them know their hard fate by degrees; direct them to call on God to divert his judgments impending over them...."

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Yes, this I do agree with. It's important to either make sure the querent is in a place and ready to accept the answer or it then becomes the astrologer's job to help get them to that place.

Which brings up another point insisted upon by the ethics codes of several major astrological associations: that predictions should always be qualified (as probable or likely, not as absolute.)

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That's just because a lot of the major astrological associations either don't believe in or teach prediction.

waybread said:

Are you familiar with Lilly's letter to the student? (copied in Barclay, Horary Astrology Rediscovered, p. 292.) Basically Lilly says that the astrologer should be a devout, discrete, and humble person.

"...afflict not the miserable with terror of a harsh judgment; in such cases, let them know their hard fate by degrees; direct them to call on God to divert his judgments impending over them...."

Which brings up another point insisted upon by the ethics codes of several major astrological associations: that predictions should always be qualified (as probable or likely, not as absolute.)

Put differently, if an astrologer thinks a horoscope reading could cause some type of harm to another person, either s/he shouldn't answer the question, or else should prepare a tactful, supportive response that includes some mitigation measures.

Note that Lilly does not say, "Your clients are big boys and girls. If they can't handle a negative answer, they shouldn't ask the question."

I think he would have found such an attitude to be irresponsible.

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I agree completly with this. However Lilly did describe ways to, for example, tell if the future wife was going to be faithfull or not. He actually put a lot of enfasis on describing the possible relationship between wife and "lover" (as in an older man, a friend, etc.)

The problem is that, for example in most of Lilly's work, a lot of the question are 3rd party questions. In fact, most of the questions a person might ask will be regarding something that is unkown to them, and this usually implies a 3rd party question:

- Future wife/lovers
- Children --- is the querent the father?
- The estate/money of the future spouse?

And so on. I think the best example would be a child's paternity. How do you break down to a querent that he is not the father? that his wife cheated on him? How can you avoid a possible nasty outcome? Of course this questions are less common today with paternity tests, because its much more reliable (since the astrologer can miss the judgement). But in Lilly's days...was probably more common.

I think in the end we can ask 2 things:

- What question is not a 3rd party question?
- Is there any question that couldn't lead to a bad outcome?

Obviously I agree completly it is a moral grey area, and that extreme amounts of care should be taken when breaking this down some bad news to a querent. Its just that I think that whatever way you go to, a querent can end up hurt anyway.

I just think that, you as the astrologer should not feel guilty about it. Your job is to read the chart...

Think about the paternity test example: when the doctor hands out the paper showing the DNA incompatibility, he might be polite about it, but in the end he has to show that the results are not compatible. And if, lets say the man goes out and kills his wife for it....is it the doctor's fault?



I really do think it is a complicated subject.

The problem is, maybe how we present the subject. Horary seems to go hand in hand with a bit of storytelling (I do it a lot), and sometimes we might be a bit "improper" about it, but mostly because we are trying to find a story that may "fit" the chart. I think this is the biggest problem.

Kai, I'm sorry that you don't like my posts. I hope to be helpful, but not clever. I'll leave cleverness you, as you're so good at it. Maybe we could set up a dual between your sources and my sources. I get first dibs on Lilly. That would be really helpful.

What is not helpful is saying that the major astrological societies do not believe in prediction. This is not true. They require the basic forecasting skills for their certification credentials. However, their ethics codes do structure how an ethical prediction is to be given. Moreover, I suspect that some of them are a little jumpy about the legal implications. In some jurisdictions (like the UK) astrologers are advised to state that their readings are "for entertainment purposes only," never mind how accurate their predictions might be.

http://geocosmic.org/educ/NCGR%20Level%20III%20Curriculum%20Winter%202015.pdf

http://www.isarastrology.com/certification

I think we all know the distinction "third party question." Something like, "Will my son marry the girl next door?" In addition to whether this is a nosy-parker or mal-intended question, it can involve several turned houses, which can manipulate the radix chart more than some astrologers like. (For example, if the son is the querent's child #2, he is her 5th from the 5th house of the querent, or 9th house; then the girl is both a neighbour (radix 3rd) as well as the 7th from the 9th, or 3rd house (though sometimes the love-interest would show up elsewhere.)

But if we are looking at any question that involves another person besides the querent, then it is a species of third party question, as well. So many of the same issues still apply. Since most of the horary questions I see involve somebody's actual or hoped-for love-life, we would kind of limit our purview and helpfulness if we completely took out anyone besides the querent and astrologer.