Current Sign Ruler Influence On Transiting Moon Did Ancients use Tropical or Sidereal

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
An example of a Babylonian omen :smile:

(always expressed as a protasis and apodosis - an if/then statement)

from the Enuma Anu Enlil is:
The Fox is breaking into houses.
If Mars approaches the Scorpion: there will be a breach in the palace of the prince.
If Mars approaches the Scorpion: the city will be taken through a breach.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
During Achaemenid Persians rule, the first horoscope of an individual birth was documented.
For previous 1,500 years all astrological omens were of a mundane nature
expressed in simple if/then statements concerning welfare of king and the land.
Not until 410 BCE :smile:
is there evidence of genethialogical or natal astrology

looking to planets in signs or on the horizon at birth
to make a statement about character/destiny of that person.
However
interpretative texts from this period
reveal a similar simple omen format
nothing more complex than the rising and setting of the planets Demetra George

“If a child is born when Venus comes forth
and Jupiter has set
his wife will be stronger than he” Abraham Sachs, “Babylonian Horoscopes,”
in Journal of Cuneiform Studies 6 (1952), p. 69.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
At the dawn of a recorded astrology in ancient Mesopotamia
circa the second millennium BCE
there was a direct and explicit correlation between planets and deities :smile:
Planets were considered one of the manifestations of gods
or
the places where gods lived.
When a planet made an appearance in the sky
the god was thought to be communicating a message Demetra George

A cuneiform tablet tells us
“When Ishtar stands on high, lovemaking on the land.”

This was interpreted as:
when Ishtar
the goddess of love
culminates in the night sky
she inspires amorous activity on the earth.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
The Babylonians identified the seven visible planets
and gave them the names of their deities

Shamesh = Sun god of divination

Sin = Moon god of time
Nebu = god who invented writing
Ishtar = goddess of love
Nergal = god of the underworld and war
Marduk = supreme god of the pantheon who established order and decreed fate
and
Ninurta = god of agriculture and death.

When knowledge of Babylonian astronomy and astrology was first transmitted to Greece around the 6th century BCE :smile:
the Pythagoreans named the planets
as the stars of Greek gods who most closely resembled their Babylonian counterparts. -Demetra George
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Babylonian, Greek & Roman names of planets :smile:

PLANET *............BABYLONIA* ..............GREECE*.....................ROME*

Sun .................. Shamesh ..................... Helios ....................... ...Sol
Moon .................. Sin ............................. Selene .........................Luna
Mercury .............Nebu ........................Star of Hermes ............ Mercurius
Venus ................Ishtar .......................Star of Aphrodite ...........Venus
Mars ..................Nergal .......................Star of Ares................ ..Mars
Jupiter ...............Marduk ......................Star of Zeus ..................Jove
Saturn ................Ninurta ......................Star of Kronos ............. Saturnus
 

waybread

Well-known member
Interesting posts all, JA, but what do they have to do with your OP? The Babylonians were siderealists, but they did not do what you would call horoscopic astrology. When they worked out nativities they sometimes recorded a time roughly, like "late at night," but nothing precise enough to work out an ascendant. They didn't use houses. (See Francesca Rochberg, The Heavenly Writing on this.) Very late in their era, some "proper" horoscopes were recorded, by which time this was probably some reverse diffusion from the Hellenists. On other threads, I recall your insisting on the importance of the ascendant calculation in horoscopic astrology.

What is your source for astrology as a practice (vs. mythological star and god lore) diffusing from Babylon at such an early date? I can't think of any sources that place it earlier than the mid-4th century BCE.

The origins of Hellenistic astrology as distinct from the Babylonian foundations are unfortunately lost or have yet to be discovered, but by the time the textbook sources emerge in the first century CE, western tropical astrology was well established, as the sources I cited in my two previous posts indicate. The Hellenists still used fixed stars for different purposes, notably the rising dates of stars, asterisms, or constellations as an agricultural, maritime, and religious calendar, based on pre-astrological Greek and Egyptian custom. The rising "star" in a horoscope, be it planet or fixed star, seems to have been important to the course of a person's life in some sources.

Speaking of the Babylonians, their ecliptic was based on the path of the moon, "Sin" ("shin") not of the sun, which is understandable, given that constellations were detectable at night. It was the same as the sun's pathway for zodiacal purposes. They developed signs because 30-degree intervals in their sexagesimal (base 60) arithmetic system made it easier to predict eclipses.

Ancient societies used different starting dates for their calendar years. The Babylonian calendar did start in the spring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_calendar, which is probably why their month of Aries became the first sign. The Egyptian New Year was in July, probably in relation to the rising of Sirius; the Jewish calendar started in autumn (with Rosh Hashanah prayers for autumn rains,) various ancient Greek calendars started the new year with the first new moon after the summer solstice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attic_calendar

From Aries it was then a question of determining the correct degree of the spring equinox, based on the length of equal days and nights.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Just a correction-- the Demetra George information you're citing is OK, but over-simplified. If you follow the careers of the Babylonian planetary deities, they had multiple meanings. Ishtar was sometimes a battle goddess as well as a love goddess, for example. Babylonian mythology diffused to Greece and Rome several centuries prior to the introduction of astrology proper.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
reminder of OP topic :smile:
This thread discusses the MOON
within the context
of the SEVEN VISIBLE CLASSICAL PLANETS
i.e.
Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn


EDIT
to clarify that Ancient includes
whether Ancient Astrologers from the earliest recorded beginnings of astrology
or more recent Ancients such as Vettius Valens
were using Tropical measurement
or
Sidereal observation of the seven visible planets
is a perennial discussion amongst many astrologers


tracking the fastest moving planet our MOON
which transits each sign and/or constellation one a month aka Moonth
may lead to more insight regarding the evergreen sidereal-tropical discussion


A YEAR ON EARTH IS MEASURED BY ONE COMPLETE TRIP AROUND THE SUN
seems simple enough :smile:

BUT
a year may be measured
Tropically
OR
Sidereally

as the Video explains
with visual and voice overs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-DYgGFjI&feature=related



 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Current TROPICAL location of the transiting MOON is AQUARIUS
sign ruler influence is TROPICAL Saturn is in Sagittarius

Current SIDEREAL location of the transiting MOON is CAPRICORN
sign ruler influence is SIDEREAL Saturn in Scorpio

Oddity earlier stated that comparison using horary
could be a pragmatic way forward

so then Oddity
presumably you have charts in mind to discuss :smile:


 

waybread

Well-known member
Ah, good-- well then my yesterday's posts have answered the question affirmatively for the tropical zodiac for the moon as well as the signs.

Do you want a separate thread on Babylonian astrology? New topic=new thread, no?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Ah, good-- well then my yesterday's posts have answered the question affirmatively for the tropical zodiac
for the moon as well as the signs.

Do you want a separate thread on Babylonian astrology? New topic=new thread, no?
If you no longer wish to comment on this thread
and if you want a separate thread on any topic then by all means
begin your own thread elsewhere
:smile:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Current TROPICAL location of the transiting MOON is AQUARIUS
sign ruler influence is TROPICAL Saturn in Sagittarius

Current SIDEREAL location of the transiting MOON is CAPRICORN
sign ruler influence is SIDEREAL Saturn in Scorpio :smile:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Start your own thread on Babylonian astrology if it interests you so much
This thread IS on my chosen topic
CHECK THE OP :smile:
which clearly is of interest to you also
and
your comments are most welcome

i.e.


This thread discusses the MOON
within the context
of the SEVEN VISIBLE CLASSICAL PLANETS
i.e.
Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn


to clarify
"Ancient" includes Ancient Astrologers from the earliest recorded beginnings of astrology
as well as "more recent" Ancients
for example Vettius Valens

and discusses the use of Tropical measurement
and/or
Sidereal observation of the seven visible planets
by "The Ancients"
which is a perennial discussion amongst astrologers

tracking the fastest moving planet our MOON
which transits each sign and/or constellation once a month aka Moonth
leads to more insight regarding the evergreen sidereal-tropical discussion


A YEAR ON EARTH IS MEASURED BY ONE COMPLETE TRIP AROUND THE SUN
seems simple enough :smile:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-DYgGFjI&feature=related


by the way you have the option to
start your own thread elsewhere on any topic you wish
 
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wilsontc

Staff member
Deleted off-topic posts

All,

I have deleted the many off-topic posts that were simply a listing of the Moon's position from this thread. As a reminder, the thread is about "Current Sign Ruler Influence On Transiting Moon Did Ancients use Tropical or Sidereal?". Keep all responses on this thread to on this issue of ancients using either Tropical astrology or Sidereal astrology. I will continue to delete any off-topic posts.

Back on subject,

Tim
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Re: Deleted off-topic posts

All,

I have deleted the many off-topic posts that were simply a listing of the Moon's position from this thread.
As a reminder, the thread is about

"Current Sign Ruler Influence On Transiting Moon Did Ancients use Tropical or Sidereal?".

Keep all responses on this thread to on this issue of ancients using either Tropical astrology or Sidereal astrology.
I will continue to delete any off-topic posts.

Back on subject,

Tim
wilsontc thank you for your input and as the OP I would like to highlight
"The current Sign Ruler Influence on the Transiting Moon" forms part of the thread title

and since
for purposes of discussion
vis a vis comparison of Tropical and Sidereal location :smile:

the moons position necessarily requires regular updates
if that is not possible
then the thread title makes no sense
would you prefer that I create a new thread stating the discussion purposes more clearly?
 

wilsontc

Staff member
discussion vs. information, to Jupiter

Jupiter,

You said:
I would like to highlight
"The current Sign Ruler Influence on the Transiting Moon" forms part of the thread title and since for purposes of discussion vis a vis comparison of Tropical and Sidereal location...the moons position necessarily requires regular updates...


There is a difference between discussing a subject and simply posting information on it. If you want to discuss the Moon in terms of Tropical and Sidereal from an ancient astrology perspective, that is fine. Make a statement about the nature of the Moon and how it relates to ancient astrology and encourage discussion. If you want to post the positions of the Moon, start a blog on Moon positions, post them there, and provide a link to the blog. The Forum is for discussion, not astrological informational postings.

Back on subject,

Tim
 
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CapAquaPis

Well-known member
The OP is on Sidereal-Tropical influences
as measured by the MOON :smile:


"Aristotle's most important contribution to the theory of Greek Medicine
was his doctrine of the Four Basic Qualities Hot, Cold, Wet, and Dry.
Later philosopher-physicians would apply these qualities
to characterize the Four Elements, Four Humors, and Four Temperaments.
The Four Basic Qualities are the foundations for all notions of balance
and homeostasis in Greek Medicine."

http//www.greekmedicine.net/whos_who/Aristotle.html

Aristotle's four basic qualities are hot, cold, wet and dry

Therese Hamilton remarked that later philosopher-physicians
linked the four elements to the humors and temperaments
and
tropical astrology has incorporated these into its sign trigons.
These don't transfer to the sidereal zodiac
just as the four qualities can't be transferred to the tropical zodiac
.

However

the tropical elements don't follow Aristotle's pattern
where Fire is opposite Water and Air is opposite Earth
.

In the sidereal zodiac the four qualities are in correct opposition to each other.
(hot-cold and wet-dry)
Aristotle's elements are made up of combinations of the four qualities
so these have very different meanings than the basic qualities themselves.


2vnffvl.png


w0orv8.gif

I have a question - which signs can be grouped into Hot, Cold, Wet and Dry categories? I believe Aquarius, an air sign is said to be wet and Scorpio is one water sign of a hot quality. Here's my theories on which signs fit in them.

Aries: Hot-Fire, Taurus: Dry-Earth, Gemini: Cold-Air, Cancer: Wet-Water.
Leo: Dry-Fire, Virgo: Hot-Earth, Libra: Dry-Air, Scorpio: Hot-water.
Sagittarius: Wet-Fire, Capricorn: Cold-Earth, Aquarius: Wet-Air, Pisces: Cold-Water.

Naturally, there's no Cold-Fire, Wet-Earth, Hot-Air and Dry-Water signs.

Ancient astrologers tried to predict weather patterns, seasonal climates and anomalies by both the sun sign and moon sign.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Ancients (between about 2000 BCE and the early centuries CE) astrology did not differentiate between zodiacal constellations (sidereal astrology) and tropical signs because, during that long period of time, when all the astrology we now know about came into being, the CONSTELLATIONS AND THE TROPICAL SIGNS WERE THE SAME (constellations were in the tropical signs bearing their names)...

The ISSUE of sidereal zodiacal constellations versus the SIGNS of the zodiac, did not arise until after 300 CE when, due to precession, the sidereal zodiacal constellations began to displace from the tropical SIGNS bearing their names.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
The earliest recorded astrological model regarding the transits of the Moon were the Babylonian Mansions of the Moon, the Chinese Seiu (Houses of the Moon), and Vedic Nakshatras (Lunar Mansions); these divisions of the sky came long before recorded zodiacal signs/constellations (the Babylonians had 18-not 12-ecliptic "constellations", before eventually reducing to 12); the Lunar Zodiac in Babylon and China consisted of 28 divisions, all based on single stars or small groups of stars (not on constellations); the Nakshatras, numbered 27, and can be found described in detail, astrologically, as early as the Yajar Veda (written down in the early 2nd millenium BCE, at the latest, and quite possibly before that time), many centuries before we find the earliest records of Babylonian natal horoscopy (5th century BCE)

An interesting study of the ancient Lunar Zodiac can be found in Volguine's 1966 work, "Lunar Astrology".
 
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