This is a pretty petty argument tbh, sorry for spamming the thread, Lex.
@everyone
If Ptolemy wasn't or was (more accredited version despite what Jup has to say about it) an astrologer, doesn't change the fact that he made nothing new, all that he gave to the world was a series of reviewed infos about astrology, he clearly says so. But he has indeed a new view in astrology, he doesn't want the more "magical" techniques, and previsions, to take part in it, so he makes some cuts, to leave behind all that is not making sense, to him.
Many ASTROLOGERS have the same view, even today, even without reading the old Ptolemy. Because many ASTROLOGERS follow a more scientific approach, such as Ptolemy tried to do. He clearly states, at some point in the Tetrabiblos, that the science of the phenomena is more important than the predictions, because predictions are caused by that science, and as Hermes said "the bigger contains the small", so that to Ptolemy the science was indeed more important than human matters. He's not the only ASTROLOGER with such a view... and there's a chance that such an approach was revolutionary, for his times. But let's not forget one thing: astronomy was just born, when Ptolemy was writing of stars observations, the 2 astro- doctrines are at the edge of their split, in his times.
I unfortunately have not much knowledge to be able to say if what Ptolemy did is to be considered a well planned fraud, or not, but if you're able to make such an accusation, because of some data he stole from Hypparcus (but Hypparchus stole many things too lol), you should accuse everyone else in the history of astrology, because they're always referring to something else, that someone else said before... then is all astrology a fraud? eheh
This is to say, astrology had, and still has, more shades than what you like to believe, dear Jup. If you don't like some of it, bring along more valid proofs, because Holden doesn't accuse him of anything.
I really like James Holden anyway, you should listen to more of him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FmFXQSIzCo <3