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  #3551  
Unread 12-09-2019, 09:44 PM
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Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
I disagree that corporations should be included in the expression "We, the People". A billionaire freeing corporations from worker-safety and environmental and wilderness protection, and lowering their taxes, isn't freeing people from the bureaucracy. He's just serving his base, which includes the Petrochemical Industry and the Arms Industry. His administration recently allowed a bee-killing pesticide to be used, that's been banned for 20 years. He's attempting to force California to lower its clean air standards to serve the interests of corporate profits.

People breathe air and drink water, which fracking and leaking oil pipelines pollute. Corporations aren't biological entities. He's a dyed-in-the-wool Corporatist, not the Populist he masquerades as.
Actually it is. It allows people to better regulate themselves free from goverment compulsion.

- If the public finds that a company does not uphold certain standards you can not buy from them and let them go bankrupt, allowing those corporations who respect the environment thrive. And corporatioins that break the law and harm the environment can be taken to court by citizens.

- If you feel like workers are not being offered safe conditions you can reject job offers; and if you feel like corporations are the ones in a position of power to submit the workforce, then collective bargaining can equalize the workers so unions can negotiate better conditions.

None of those things actually require goverment involvement.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Also its fair to note that, according to wikipedia, the largest cause of air pollution in california is residential wood combustion (not corporations):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollut...ifornia#Causes


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  #3552  
Unread 12-09-2019, 09:49 PM
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Smile Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Actually it is. It allows people to better regulate themselves free from goverment compulsion.

- If the public finds that a company does not uphold certain standards you can not buy from them and let them go bankrupt, allowing those corporations who respect the environment thrive. And corporatioins that break the law and harm the environment can be taken to court by citizens.

- If you feel like workers are not being offered safe conditions you can reject job offers; and if you feel like corporations are the ones in a position of power to submit the workforce, then collective bargaining can equalize the workers so unions can negotiate better conditions.

None of those things actually require goverment involvement.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Also its fair to note that, according to wikipedia, the largest cause of air pollution in california is residential wood combustion (not corporations):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollut...ifornia#Causes

Industrial processes are a close second, and are FAR more carcinogenic. Fossil fuel emissions are up close and personal, and are also extremely hazardous to our health.
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  #3553  
Unread 12-09-2019, 09:50 PM
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Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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Maybe I can clear this up? Passiflora is just saying that the corrupt are always in power, and will misuse ANY economic system to their own advantage. Until human nature improves, that won't change. She calls it Evolving.

[I personally call it the Aquarian Age, but that's probably not on your radar, so you can disregard my additional comment.]
Thnx. In response top passiflora:

I don't think its about finding the perfect system, cause there isn't one. But there are bad systems which are born out of corruption. Capitalism can become corrupt, but socialism is born out of corruption.
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Last edited by Dirius; 12-09-2019 at 09:54 PM.
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  #3554  
Unread 12-09-2019, 09:53 PM
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Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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Industrial processes are a close second, and are FAR more carcinogenic.
Sure, they are harmful, no one denies that. I'm saying its interesting that the biggest cause of air pollution, are the activities of normal inhabitants.

Furthermore if you add all the rest, they also come from the public, such as on road vehicles.

Should you tax and regulate californians because of it?
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  #3555  
Unread 12-09-2019, 09:56 PM
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Smile Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

If you need to feed your family, you can't AFFORD to reject the jobs that corporations provide. The corporations can't control their need to place profits over damage to the biological environment. That's where government comes in.
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  #3556  
Unread 12-09-2019, 10:07 PM
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Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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If you need to feed your family, you can't AFFORD to reject the jobs that corporations provide. The corporations can't control their need to place profits over damage to the biological environment. That's where government comes in.
Thats why unions exist, so all the workers can negotiate better conditions and more benefits. In a sense this is how most working conditions got improved overtime in most of the western world.

If a corporation damages the environment, then the public should not purchase its products, and then take the corporation to court. If corporations are both liable and risk their market share for such actions, most corporations would stop doing such things.

In the current system, corporations simply bribe politicians, who provide protection. If the goverment wasn't involved at all, it would be up to public opinion. So not only you don't need the goverment, it would be much more effective way of keeping corporations in check.
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  #3557  
Unread 12-09-2019, 10:07 PM
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Smile Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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Sure, they are harmful, no one denies that. I'm saying its interesting that the biggest cause of air pollution, are the activities of normal inhabitants.

Furthermore if you add all the rest, they also come from the public, such as on road vehicles.

Should you tax and regulate californians because of it?
We are being taxed and regulated for it.

Road vehicles and pollution caused by generating electricity are part of the Petrochemical pollution that causes the most damage. If we treat corporations as sacred cows that can't be taxed and fined, there's no control over the damage they're doing to our overall health.

New technology can help, but new methods need public support, which can only be effective through collective efforts, which have to include our elected representatives. And, to the extent that these new methods cut into the profits of established corporations, the legislators they already have in their pockets will vote against them.
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  #3558  
Unread 12-09-2019, 10:13 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Thats why unions exist, so all the workers can negotiate better conditions and more benefits. In a sense this is how most working conditions got improved overtime in most of the western world.

If a corporation damages the environment, then the public should not purchase its products, and then take the corporation to court. If corporations are both liable and risk their market share for such actions, most corporations would stop doing such things.

In the current system, corporations simply bribe politicians, who provide protection. If the goverment wasn't involved at all, it would be up to public opinion. So not only you don't need the goverment, it would be much more effective way of keeping corporations in check.
The Unions have lost most of their power, thanks to the concerted efforts of the big corporations through their paid lobbyists and the many legislators who rely on them for their re-election.
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  #3559  
Unread 12-09-2019, 10:17 PM
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Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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The Unions have lost most of their power, thanks to the concerted efforts of the big corporations through their paid lobbyists and the many legislators who rely on them for their re-election.
So you are saying goverment is the reason why workers are unable to properly bargain better conditions, because goverment involves itself to defend corporations.

Then wouldn't the solution be to keep goverment out of it?
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Last edited by Dirius; 12-09-2019 at 10:20 PM.
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  #3560  
Unread 12-09-2019, 10:20 PM
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Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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We are being taxed and regulated for it.

Road vehicles and pollution caused by generating electricity are part of the Petrochemical pollution that causes the most damage. If we treat corporations as sacred cows that can't be taxed and fined, there's no control over the damage they're doing to our overall health.

New technology can help, but new methods need public support, which can only be effective through collective efforts, which have to include our elected representatives. And, to the extent that these new methods cut into the profits of established corporations, the legislators they already have in their pockets will vote against them.
But it is the general public who uses cars. If everyone used bicycles, you wouldn't have this problem.

So do you think that taxing the public, the average blue collar worker, is a good method to stop pollution? I mean they are at large responsible too, far more than corporations, but I believe that taxing them for those products is harming them.
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  #3561  
Unread 12-09-2019, 10:33 PM
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Smile Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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But it is the general public who uses cars. If everyone used bicycles, you wouldn't have this problem.

So do you think that taxing the public, the average blue collar worker, is a good method to stop pollution? I mean they are at large responsible too, far more than corporations, but I believe that taxing them for those products is harming them.
You raise some really good points. We need a government that is actively seeking solutions to these problems, and giving support to private companies that are addressing them. Otherwise, the established corporations will continue on with their polluting ways, and currently have the Trumpolluter on their side.
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  #3562  
Unread 12-09-2019, 10:58 PM
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Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

60 corporations paid no federal income tax in 2018 on $79 Billion in profits.
They did receive $4.3 Billion in rebates, however.


read all about it
https://itep.org/notadime/?fbclid=Iw...kzV1aPs6tdXqc8
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  #3563  
Unread 12-10-2019, 01:07 AM
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Thanks David.

That wiki chart is strange. It doesnít distinguish residential wood burning from industrial wood burning. In my California city you canít build a new wood burning fireplace in your home, but restaurants can run massive wood burners almost constantly. Anyway itís a chart from 2005, so not representative.
California also has more stringent emissions requirements than the rest of the country, greatly necessary here, but Trump has been working to undercut those requirements. Bad government working against good government.
The city where I live recently released a hilarious traffic study that blamed UPS drivers for most of the increase in local traffic -leaving Uber and Lyft, the patently obvious culprits, out of it. Uber is HQd in said city so laughable, but disgusting. Terrible self-destructiveness ó what we need is better public transport, not the brand name of Uber (whose tax bill is quite discounted).

There are many informal models of mutual support that predate the twentieth century, they are a bit more common in more communal cultures. These are social models first and foremost. Defining governance according to an economy rather than a society changes the nature of the conversation entirely.

I still feel you are being a bit idealistic about corporate governance and accountability Dirius. Do you work in a corporation?
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  #3564  
Unread 12-10-2019, 03:28 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

The Trumpolluter's FDA is giving the meat industry the right to inspect itself for food quality and safety, on a voluntary basis!
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  #3565  
Unread 12-10-2019, 08:25 AM
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Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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Thanks David.

That wiki chart is strange. It doesnít distinguish residential wood burning from industrial wood burning. In my California city you canít build a new wood burning fireplace in your home, but restaurants can run massive wood burners almost constantly. Anyway itís a chart from 2005, so not representative.
California also has more stringent emissions requirements than the rest of the country, greatly necessary here, but Trump has been working to undercut those requirements. Bad government working against good government.
The city where I live recently released a hilarious traffic study that blamed UPS drivers for most of the increase in local traffic -leaving Uber and Lyft, the patently obvious culprits, out of it. Uber is HQd in said city so laughable, but disgusting. Terrible self-destructiveness ó what we need is better public transport, not the brand name of Uber (whose tax bill is quite discounted).

There are many informal models of mutual support that predate the twentieth century, they are a bit more common in more communal cultures. These are social models first and foremost. Defining governance according to an economy rather than a society changes the nature of the conversation entirely.

I still feel you are being a bit idealistic about corporate governance and accountability Dirius. Do you work in a corporation?
If people want to live under communal system similar to socialism they can, and personally I have no problem with that. Its a matter of consent and free will: you can't force people and go against their individual rights, but capitalism is so great that a group of people can form their own socialist club and live according to its precepts. The economy is the bloodline of a society and it is the main way in which we interact with each other and allows us to survive.

The market its determined by what the public wants: if people don't want products that harm the environment, then companies would adapt; the problem is most people do prefer them because they are cheap. So obviously such level of freedom would require a total liberasation of the economy, ergo taxation being as low as possibl, and a shift in perspective.

I work for an accounting firm in my country Argentina, so I know how much people are truly taxed here under our socialist system. If you add on all the small taxes we have, about 55% for the poorest people, and about 75% for the richest. Not to mention massive inflation and restriction for currency exchange. We happen to have a very high rate of unemployment and poverty.

You live in california, one of the most "socialist" states in the U.S. How is the economy there? is high taxation working well? There is no such thing as good or bad goverment. Goverment has one role only, which is to enforce and protect your rights as citizens.
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  #3566  
Unread 12-10-2019, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
You raise some really good points. We need a government that is actively seeking solutions to these problems, and giving support to private companies that are addressing them. Otherwise, the established corporations will continue on with their polluting ways, and currently have the Trumpolluter on their side.
The environment had been changing forever, bro.
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  #3567  
Unread 12-10-2019, 01:47 PM
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Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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The Trumpolluter's FDA is giving the meat industry the right to inspect itself for food quality and safety, on a voluntary basis!
Yeah, well, Obama gave control of the FDA to Monsanto when He was in the office... so, what's the difference?

My advice is, become a vegetarian.
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  #3568  
Unread 12-10-2019, 02:01 PM
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Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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If people want to live under communal system similar to socialism they can, and personally I have no problem with that. Its a matter of consent and free will: you can't force people and go against their individual rights, but capitalism is so great that a group of people can form their own socialist club and live according to its precepts. .
That has nothing to do with capitalism, that is due to the fact we have a constitution... and also, that as citizens we are armed to the teeth.

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There is no such thing as good or bad goverment. Goverment has one role only, which is to enforce and protect your rights as citizens.
There's no such thing as "goverment", period.
If we were talking about 'government', then, yes, that is the way it was set up and intended to remain... and that's the problem.

When it has grown to the size it presently is and takes power away from the States, takes the rights of the States away for itself... THAT"S BAD GOVERNMENT
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  #3569  
Unread 12-10-2019, 03:24 PM
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Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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That has nothing to do with capitalism, that is due to the fact we have a constitution... and also, that as citizens we are armed to the teeth.
I never said that the reason you can live the way you choose is because of living in a capitalist society. What I was trying to say is that:

you can have your own private communal socialist system, under a capitalist economy and make it work.

you can't have your own private free trade capitalist system, under a socialist economy, because it wouldn't work.

And that has nothing to do with having a constitution, because many countries have experienced both systems with or without one. I agree your constitution is at large the main reason you can better protect yourself from the goverment. Even if you had a constitution, you can't have the latter under socialism.
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Last edited by Dirius; 12-10-2019 at 03:27 PM.
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  #3570  
Unread 12-10-2019, 06:29 PM
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Smile Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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Yeah, well, Obama gave control of the FDA to Monsanto when He was in the office... so, what's the difference?

My advice is, become a vegetarian.
Obama was better on clean air and water, and wilderness protection. I was shocked that he was so cozy with Monsanto--made me think a lot less of him. At least he didn't authorize bee-killing pesticides.
If you're a vegetarian, you still have to watch out for the GMOs Monsanto creates. Go organic, whenever possible.
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  #3571  
Unread 12-10-2019, 06:33 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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I never said that the reason you can live the way you choose is because of living in a capitalist society. What I was trying to say is that:

you can have your own private communal socialist system, under a capitalist economy and make it work.

you can't have your own private free trade capitalist system, under a socialist economy, because it wouldn't work.

And that has nothing to do with having a constitution, because many countries have experienced both systems with or without one. I agree your constitution is at large the main reason you can better protect yourself from the goverment. Even if you had a constitution, you can't have the latter under socialism.
Capitalism is the engine of our economy. Like a gasoline engine (since it's petroleum-based) it requires a regulator, a distributor, and pollution control equipment.
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  #3572  
Unread 12-10-2019, 11:43 PM
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Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
I never said that the reason you can live the way you choose is because of living in a capitalist society. What I was trying to say is that:

you can have your own private communal socialist system, under a capitalist economy and make it work.

you can't have your own private free trade capitalist system, under a socialist economy, because it wouldn't work.

And that has nothing to do with having a constitution, because many countries have experienced both systems with or without one. I agree your constitution is at large the main reason you can better protect yourself from the goverment. Even if you had a constitution, you can't have the latter under socialism.
Again, there's no such thing a a "goverment". If we were talking about a "G O V E R N M E N T, then I have to ask you... are you saying that We, the people, the citizens of these United States, would be unable to protect ourselves if we became a socialistic society, if our goverNment were to become socialistic that We couldn't protect ourselves from the goverNment?

Wow, are you ever naive about us Yanks...

The problem with you Argentinian's is that there were so many Nazi's that relocated there after W.W. II and corrupted your own goverment [sic] that you only see the world as being either black or white.

Wake up an smell the coffee... it's Colombian, would you like a cup? One lump or two?
Italian roast, perhaps? It's Mussolini free....!
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  #3573  
Unread 12-10-2019, 11:57 PM
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Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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Capitalism is the engine of our economy. Like a gasoline engine (since it's petroleum-based) it requires a regulator, a distributor, and pollution control equipment.
Wow, what witticism... you are good, my friend, you are good.
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  #3574  
Unread 12-11-2019, 02:00 AM
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Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

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Again, there's no such thing a a "goverment". If we were talking about a "G O V E R N M E N T, then I have to ask you... are you saying that We, the people, the citizens of these United States, would be unable to protect ourselves if we became a socialistic society, if our goverNment were to become socialistic that We couldn't protect ourselves from the goverNment?
I think its the other way around mate. Last time I checked, most socialists in your country oppose the majority of your rights, such as the right to bear arms. So I can only assume that if you apply socialism, most of your rights would slowly go away. Its just the logical step, making the answer to your question, pretty obvious. A constitution is only good as long as people respect it. Aside from that its just a piece of paper.

In my country we have a constitution which was an adaptation of the U.S. constitution. And we had a similar republican system. Only lasted while politicians respected it, eventually no one really cared. The Arg constitution is trampled every single day.

In fact aren't there already laws to, for example, take away your guns?

Quote:
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Wow, are you ever naive about us Yanks...

The problem with you Argentinian's is that there were so many Nazi's that relocated there after W.W. II and corrupted your own goverment [sic] that you only see the world as being either black or white.

Wake up an smell the coffee... it's Colombian, would you like a cup? One lump or two?
Italian roast, perhaps? It's Mussolini free....!
Oh its worse than that. First we had the fascist style peronist goverment in the 40's which emulated Mussolini's regime. And then in the 60's we had the trotskian communist that followed che guevara.

Now we have an amalgam of both in the form of the never-ending Peronist party. We have both worst aspects of the left in one party.


PS: Knowing that you waste seconds of your life to highlight the small grammar mistakes I make is just funny mate, not offensive to me, but amusing that you waste your time for a point no one cares
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Last edited by Dirius; 12-11-2019 at 02:09 AM.
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  #3575  
Unread 12-11-2019, 02:40 AM
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Re: Donald Trump will be impeached.

I can understand your frustration Dirius but the age in which capitalism was possible, is past. Corporatism is what remains after marketing (manipulative psychology of creating desire) and corruption.
Has the capitalism you imagine ever succeeded at scale?
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