Cause of death?

Backy · Jun 13, 2010

I feel awful. Last night I found out that a good friend of mine (who I haven't seen for a while) is dead. I feel so devastated by this loss........ I don't know how she died. Is it possible to maybe get a clue from her chart?

She did have a bit sensitive health, but I am not even sure if that is the cause, and what exactly.

I am interested in your opinion, and hopefully I'll get more info on it later.

Thanks

lillyjgc · Jun 13, 2010

Backy-
Sorry to hear your friend has died.

If her birth time is correct I think we can assume she has died as the result of a chronic health condition.
Her sixth house of illness has Pluto transiting, and it may have contacted her natal mercury.Mercury rules her fourth house of the grave and Saturn, ruler of her eighth, is right there.
It would be very helpful if you could give us some idea of when she died.

With jupiter ruling her sixth, it could be quite a few possibilities, as Jupiter rules over tumours, glands, liver disorders etc.
Neptune and Chiron have been travelling through her h8 too-Fittingly, now they move to her ninth-a higher plane of experience.
Transiting Pluto is opposite her natal jupiter too and its possible she died when that aspect was exact.(around January 2010)
At that time, the ruler of her eighth was in her 4th. Mid January, Mercury conjoined pluto in her sixth. Also then, around January 13th, she had the transiting node, sun and venus, right on her seventh house cusp.
Sth node would have been conjunct her ascendant.
She may also have had to undergo surgery when mars was going through her first house.
The presence of Neptune/Chiron in her 8th also indicates drugs may have played a role-probably prescribed drugs as she has Mars ruling her MC as well.
Date of death can usually be obtained-funeral lists etc...If you access this info I may be able to add a bit more.
Lilly

gemini59 · Jun 13, 2010

I have attached her solar return for this year if she died after dec 3rd of 2009 and if she was still living in Belgrade.
-most prominent in chart is natal merc ruler of natal 4th with pluto and solar mercury ruler of health
-The sun is located in the 8th house.
-saturn in the 6th does speak of long illness
-sun trines asc showing an easing or harmonious end
-saturns sextile to sun shows easing
-sun and mercury rule 6th house of health
-mercury conjunct Pluto...powerful changes
-pluto traditionally rules 8th and in the natal is in 4th house with north node
-venus rules 7th house. 7th is 2nd house of 6th showing future of illness and the ruler of this is found in the 8th house.
Here I begin to be intrigued. Sun rules 6th house and also heart. In the sign of jupiter may imply some expansion.

There is a t-square formation of this health issues of pluto, merc square saturn in 6th square moon in 3rd house of travel?

The T-squares apex points to its polarity point of the 12th house of confinement.
A second T-square points to the 6th house with Uranus at the apex so something unexpected happened...something hidden to point to illness again.Uranus rules natal 8th. The progressed moon conjuncts natal Uranus in three months from dec solar. Porgressed Jupiter has formed an exact square to 4th house cusp. Sun progressed to sextile Uranus.
The Uranus and Saturn both find easement to harmonious aspects to the sun in the 8th.

The natal moon and saturn both aspect natal mercury so this is a repeat energy.

Moon is a contributing factor as it separates from pluto and mercury.

Mars, the ruler of the first house in solar is at the cusp of the 6th house in the sign of leo or heart. It is opposed by jupiter and neptune indicating an expansion and maybe medication increased and the watery signs fluid.

I see this chart and I feel that there may have been a problem with communication about the medication. It may have been an accidental death almost looking like errors from nurse (moon) caregivers (12thhouse) doctors or the cure (9th house).
This is what I can gather from the solar return.

I do not think that she had to die as I do not see enough fate indicators.
Uranus has been trigger clearly with this T-square.

Backy · Jun 15, 2010

Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate that.

Does anyone else have any opinion about what would the exact cause be?

I'll try to get in contact with her family these days, to find out something more.

Thanks

Frisiangal · Jun 16, 2010

Backy said:
Does anyone else have any opinion about what would the exact cause be?

I doubt anyone could use the chart in determining the exact cause. Physical disorders can occur through indirect, just as easily as direct ways. Using modern astrology, much would depend on the psychological factors within planetary placement effecting individual character.
Also, much depends upon the accuracy of the birth time, which can be of importance in this chart with Neptune conjunct...or in...6th house and its consequently relevant ruling houses.

Big changes occured from 2005 onwards, implying an ongoing process. Yet I've just deleted 2 hours thought/typing because I could reach no definite conclusion but came up with many causes for different complaints, ranging from pulmonary, intestinal, or blood diseases, growths, weak heart attack, effect of alien substances, to a suicidal attack/overdose....and even fatal assailant brutality.

If you are able to discover more, we can all supply you with our hindsight knowledge.

Backy · Jun 16, 2010

Thanks for your reply. The abduction will be done tomorrow and the results should come soon, so I may get more info about it.

So, if I understood, there could be many causes in this chart that you have seen? Could there be something you didn't name here? And also, what seems the most likely for you?

Thanks a lot.

Frisiangal · Jun 17, 2010

Backy said:
Backy said:

Thanks for your reply. The abduction will be done tomorrow and the results should come soon, so I may get more info about it.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by 'abduction'. Could you mean 'autopsy', indicating that her death was very recent? In your original post you said you 'hadn't seen her for a while', which could have meant a few weeks, months or even year(s) ago. It's difficult to pinpoint anything through transits and progressions without a time frame through which to work.

So, if I understood, there could be many causes in this chart that you have seen?

Click to expand...

Yes, and Lily also indicated as much in her post although we may work from different approaches to reach similar ideas. I don't rule out Cassandra's post, but without an accurate time/place would be hesitant to trust its verity.

Could there be something you didn't name here? And also, what seems the most likely for you?

Click to expand...

Only hypothetically!

1)That Neptune influence 'itches'. The alienation influence of people and/or substances that subtley take advantage of, and/or could weaken a heart/spirit into escapism/failure in order not to have to deal with the harsh Virgo realities the Moon feelings, ruler Ascendant, and Saturn, ruler Descendant, cannot face. She may have long failed to take care of herself (progr. Sun through 6th) in a manner she should have done. She could have 'withered away' through lack of real physical nourishment, or taken to substances in preference to food, that released her from the worries of a physical world.

2)The chart shows a lack of air, except for Pluto in Libra, which is on the midpoint of Saturn square Venus. Mars is square Uranus in Scorpio 5, suggestive of sexual orientation, experimentation and transference; not entirely indicative of a( emotionally) 'settled' life. Sun-Neptune could infer 'larger than life schemes and dreams'.
A lack of air could suggest a difficulty in mentally rationalising circumstances. This would make the placement of Mercury in Capricorn in 6 of great importance. One might prefer to block out rationalisation in favour of the hopes and ideals of a Jupiter, ruler 6th of self-service and 'working on yourself', as well as eventual physical disorders, which is retrograde in Water in 12.

Jupiter in Cancer will enlarge the needs for the emotional nourishment that fulfilled ideals can bring. If this is not forthcoming, Jupiter might work inwards to give 'excess water' that can find no rational outlet through a positively working Mercury in Capricorn that will then 'stall and thicken' it. Water becomes blocked, correlating to a dam of feeling that has no 'rationally mental' escape route, so gradually develops in the body.
According to J.v. Wageningen in his book 'Astrologie en Geneeskunde', page 179, Cancer, amongst others, rules the pleura. Gemini, through Mercury, rules the vacinity of/around the lung area. Makes me wonder about pneumonia or pleurisy, especially as Ebertin's Anatomical references to zodiacal degrees places the pleura on 16* Gemini....her 12th house cusp if the birth time is accurate!!

Mercury positively 'serves' the Moon in Virgo, so I'd be hesitant to think of Virgo-ruled problems through its position. Which brings me back to the 'itch' of the Neptune influence upon an afflicted Moon-Sun.
Although, working through traditional astrology, Neptune itself would not constitute a problem.

Backy · Jun 17, 2010

Yeah, abduction = autopsy, that's what I meant.

I haven't seen her for a while, because she moved from here, and she wasn't in contact with me for more than a couple of years almost (actually last time, she called to congratulate my birthday, and after that.....no). Her death was recent, I'll try to find out the exact time of death and post it here.

Btw, it looks like all of you were correct it was something with lungs, probably a pneumonia, but mixed with some of her chronic diseases she had (I "think" she had asthma too).

I will post the exact time and day when she died, to find out something more.

Backy · Jun 17, 2010

The date of death is 10th June, 3:10 PM Belgrade.

Can something interesting be seen there?

Oh, and it looks like something happened to her in the middle of March too, can that be seen? Maybe that is when health began to collapse?

dr. farr · Jun 17, 2010

In my opinion I think the closest we can come (without further specifics) has been well delineated above by Lily, Frisiangal, and Gemini59.
Regarding the natal advanced by Pauline profection to her last year of life (her 32 year), and using whole sign:
-her natal ascendant has profected into Capricorn (in her natal 7th, thus in opposition to her natal ascendant), lord of her 32nd year = Saturn
-her natal Saturn has profected into Aquarius, thus into its own domcile, and has profected to activate her 8th natal house
-her natal Mars has also profected into Aquarius and into her natal 8th house
...so, with her profected lord of the year = Saturn plus Saturn and Mars (disposited by Saturn )and in the natal 8th house: this could send up a red flag about danger in her 32nd year, especially when we also see that the natal Sun/Neptune profect into the 12th (natal) house this same year; this Neptune connection with the life giving Sun, profecting into the 12th house in her 32nd year, possibly might give a clue regarding death circumstances (her 12th natal house is under Gemini, so in this profection Sun/Neptune profect into Gemini, which has an affinity with lungs and air and respiration)
-an additional red flag for her 32nd year: the natal Part of Death (asc+8th-Saturn) = 20 Sagittarius; by profection the Part of Death moves into her 12th natal house in her 32nd year.

dr. farr · Jun 19, 2010

Additional:
-note that the profection of Sun/Neptune into the natal 12th house, and also the profection of the Part of Death into the natal 12th house, are all under Gemini (sign of the natal 12th house), and that the actual date of death-June 10th-was in Gemini (ie the Sun was in the sign of Gemini at the time of death)

Looking at the chart erected for the time of death (June 10, 2010 @ 3:10pm in Belgrade, Serbia), and comparing it to the natal chart:
-significator of the natal Part of Death, Jupiter, is in parallel of declination with Uranus in the time of death chart (Uranus = sudden and unexpected events)
-in the time of death chart Neptune is in Aquarius: Aquarius is the sign on the 8th house in the nativity
-natal ascendant sign is Cancer, ruler = Moon; in the time of death chart, Moon is in longitudinal conjunction with Algol
-in the time of death chart, Sun (as well as the WittePoint Hades, and also Mercury) are all posited in Gemini; in the natal chart Gemini is the sign on the 12th house; additionally, as well as the Sun being in Gemini in the time of death chart, the Sun is also in longitudinal conjunction with Bellatrix (Robson gives, relative to Sun+Bellatrix, "...accident, extreme sickness...violent death")
-in the time of death chart, the Moon (ruler of the natal ascendant sign) and Sun are in parallel of declination (within a matter of minutes of declination) with both the WittePoint Hades AND WITH THE DRAGON'S TAIL (South Node)

Backy · Jun 20, 2010

Very good explanation dr farr, thanks.

Since the chronic disease also played a role in her demise, do you think it was also something connected with lungs i.e. maybe asthma?

Too bad, she was too young to go ....

dr. farr · Jun 20, 2010

Backy said:
Very good explanation dr farr, thanks.

Since the chronic disease also played a role in her demise, do you think it was also something connected with lungs i.e. maybe asthma?

Too bad, she was too young to go ....

With those serious connections involving Gemini, there certainly might have been a fatal involvement with asthma/respiration/lungs. When we look at the natal, we find the Part of Chronic Illness at 10 Leo, in partile conjunction with the natal Mars (showing the basic inflammation-like fundamental quality of the nature of the chronic health imbalance), and its significator is the Sun (Leo is ruled by the Sun, hence Sun = Part of Chronic Illness significator/indicator) In the profected chart, the Part of Chronic Illness profects into Aquarius and the 8th house; and we know (my previous posts) where the Sun profected to, and also the actual place and connections of the Sun in the time of death chart. This leads me to suppose that the cause of death was likely connected with the underlying chronic illness.

BobZemco · Jun 20, 2010

I just started recently learning about profections. Fascinating stuff.

Anyway, I see nothing unusual here. The Hyleg is the Part of Fortune. That makes the Alcoccoden the Sun. The Sun gets a friend in a weak Venus in a succedent house but then both Mars and Saturn attack the Sun, so her life span was only 32-34 years.

Backy · Jun 20, 2010

Do you think this hyleg method is always that reliable? I mean I have seen many charts where hyleg and alcoccoden are placed very good, without any aspects from the malefics, and the person died young.....?

But......I understand :sad:

Catatonia · Jun 20, 2010

Well, this is kind of a bad incident isn't it...

She's got a nice chart. Her sect light is the Moon in the 3rd, in its joy. But it's co-present with Saturn who is also lord of her 8th. Nonetheless, they are both cadent which unnerves me--especially since Saturn is out of sect and in mutual reception with Mercury in the setting place (7th).

What strikes me as odd is that she was in a 9th house profection year which means her profected lord was Jupiter in its exaltation in the 1st! That's not a bad placement to have when you're backed up by Moon in its joy (and triplicity). But when she died she was in a 3rd house monthly profection!

Her 12th (undoing) is also ruled by Mercury and we all know that Mercury's in the setting place (7th)...

I looked at her Solar Return and you should see the IC/MC axis falling opposite her natal Jupiter RX in Cancer. Retrogrades take back what they gave us usually and in this case it took her away.

It's so difficult to discern what her cause of death might be. Her Saturn rules her 7th and 8th houses and is located in the 3rd. She might have died from... (And you know how incredibly difficult this is to make sense of...)... Some sort of organ failure (like liver or spleen) OR she might have gotten hit by an automobile.

BobZemco · Jun 20, 2010

Backy said:
Do you think this hyleg method is always that reliable? I mean I have seen many charts where hyleg and alcoccoden are placed very good, without any aspects from the malefics, and the person died young.....?

Astrology is always reliable. It has no agenda, no concerns. If there is an error, it lies with the astrologer.

I've had people tell me their Sun is the Hyleg, then I look at the chart, and the Sun is in the 4th House. I say, "Really? What tables are you using?" and they give you a blank stare, and then you remind them that Ptomey's and Dorotheus' terms aren't the same, and they give you another blank stare.

Catatonia said:
It's so difficult to discern what her cause of death might be.

I gave up on that. I guess it comes down to what do you really need to know? Drownings, and a few other deaths have certain signatures that are easy to spot, but as far as doing an "astrological autopsy" I ain't that good. To narrow things down, it really helps to use terms and decans. I mean Gemini rules lungs, collar bone, hands, arms, shoulder and nervous system, but that covers a lot of territory.

Catatonia · Jun 20, 2010

And also, a possible nervous disorder. Those are the 3 BIG options for me.

Then again, her Forth 7th house (setting place in a Fortune chart) is ruled by Mars and transiting Mars just went right over her Saturn (ruler of 8th). Either way. Profected transits.

Catatonia said:
Well, this is kind of a bad incident isn't it...

She's got a nice chart. Her sect light is the Moon in the 3rd, in its joy. But it's co-present with Saturn who is also lord of her 8th. Nonetheless, they are both cadent which unnerves me--especially since Saturn is out of sect and in mutual reception with Mercury in the setting place (7th).

What strikes me as odd is that she was in a 9th house profection year which means her profected lord was Jupiter in its exaltation in the 1st! That's not a bad placement to have when you're backed up by Moon in its joy (and triplicity). But when she died she was in a 3rd house monthly profection!

Her 12th (undoing) is also ruled by Mercury and we all know that Mercury's in the setting place (7th)...

I looked at her Solar Return and you should see the IC/MC axis falling opposite her natal Jupiter RX in Cancer. Retrogrades take back what they gave us usually and in this case it took her away.

It's so difficult to discern what her cause of death might be. Her Saturn rules her 7th and 8th houses and is located in the 3rd. She might have died from... (And you know how incredibly difficult this is to make sense of...)... Some sort of organ failure (like liver or spleen) OR she might have gotten hit by an automobile.

dr. farr · Jun 20, 2010

Of course determination of Hyleg can be a difficult matter; however, I have frequently found that the Pars Hyleg (aka Pars radix vitae), together with its significator (ie, the Pars Hyleg dispositor) answers very well for most analytical and predictive purposes; in my more recent practice I have been giving increasing attention to the Pillar of the Horoscope lot (ascendant+part of spirit-part of fortune) and its significator (dispositor) relative to the "giver of life" (hyleg) indications.

Backy · Jun 21, 2010

@Catatonia: Her cause of death is an illness mixed with some chronic disease she had already (and we got to the conclusion that it had something to do with lungs).

What do you mean by "death from a nervous disorder?" Is it maybe a suicide as a result of some problem related to nerves, or......?

Cause of death?

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