Suggestion to the nerds

ScorpioMinistry

ScorpioMinistry

Well-known member
Hello hope this is the right place for this. When I read peoples post it would help me grow in understanding the 12 tribes, if it displayed with the persons screenname, their sun sign. If it's possible I don't know, but that would be my suggestion. (Butters) Why Heck, if it displayed the location of all their planets under the screenname.

[moved thread to general chat - moderator]
 
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waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Although this might help you learn astrology, some of us do not care to post our charts. Even you make the birth data anonymous, a skilled astrologer can identify your birth place and date, and thereby find out who you are personally by checking the recorder's office in your county/municipality of birth. I've been near cyber-stalked twice in another astrology forum, and I am thankful that those two individuals never learned my real identity. [Actually, I think one of them did, but fortunately he was dropped by that Forum.]

The use of celebrity charts is common for learning astrology, though. There is a big goldmine of them in the Astro-DataBank at www.astro.com .

I don't look at your sun sign as giving you membership in a tribe, BTW. I think it shows your identity in terms of the style or manner in which it operates; but planets in aspect and houses in some ways are more basic than an operating style.
 
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Claire19

Claire19

Well-known member
My suggestion is that you draw a birthchart for the major capital city nearest you which wont make much difference to the accuracy of the chart and that would discourage anyone from wanting to track you down as the records would be so vast if indeed anyone would be able to access them. I cant imagine any crazy stalker being able to find you if you blank out all your details including your name and always use a nickname also.
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Claire, in addition to the two people who really creeped me out [one was really malicious and the other one admitted to being mentally ill], I have had 4 people try to do my chart over at Astrodienst based on bits of information that I've dropped on various threads. I didn't want them to construct the chart for the above mentioned reasons; but also because I do view astrology as the "sacred science" and I just didn't want to contribute to people using my chart for negative purposes. It was only the fact that these men couldn't get my birth place correct that gave me some sense of relief about their "detective work." Which is also a good argument for me and anyone else to be a bit more circumspect.

There really isn't any way to lie about a birth date and time once you show someone your chart, because all they need is an ephemeris to track it down. I'm not familiar with the technique of pinning down the birth location, but I have seen people who know the astrological math do it with some accuracy.

Frankly, if your birth data were properly recorded in an American state, it is a matter of public record: in my birth location, either via the county recorder's office or birth notices in the newspaper. Old US newspapers, incidentally are widely available on microfilm through Interlibrary loan; and increasingly, on-line.

Stalking is maybe the lesser worry. Identity theft is a huge problem, and if someone acquires a copy of your birth certificate [which they can legally do] they can then usually get hold of your social security number, and you're in trouble; especially those trusting souls with links to personal websites or social networking sites which give out further personal details. Identity thieves can open up credit card accounts in your name, run them up, and then vanish. By the time the victim has straightened everything out, s/he often has had a horrible time keeping their finances and credit rating intact.

I think your dummy birth place idea might work, however. I could use one of the ones that the Astrodienst sleuths thought were correct.

For nicknames, I would encourage people to use one that is nothing like their real name.

With those guys who tried to construct my chart, I don't think they were malicious: it was more like a detective game for them. But we just don't know who is out there.
 
Nexus7

Nexus7

Well-known member
My own feeling on the matter, ID and privacy matters aside, is that nobody should ever be obliged or forced to share information about themselves if they are not comfortable with this. I personally do not like being labelled or categorised exclusively by sun sign alone.
 
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bilastro

bilastro

Member
ScorpioMinistry said:
Hello hope this is the right place for this. When I read peoples post it would help me grow in understanding the 12 tribes, if it displayed with the persons screenname, their sun sign. If it's possible I don't know, but that would be my suggestion. (Butters) Why Heck, if it displayed the location of all their planets under the screenname.

[moved thread to general chat - moderator]
Click to expand...

very good suggestion ''''me -capricorn
 
ScorpioMinistry

ScorpioMinistry

Well-known member
I would display my information transparently, and have on the web, I come here on the iPhone is why I lack natal information (Obama watches me for a satallite any way). It's good that you guys communicated and found some worry about ID theft so as not to go balls out location and date. How about just the sun sign? Most people who come on here start with a reference from the signs, it's not that threatening to give your birth month - it would help assimilation and accomidation.

And I do believe tribe membership - center purpose comes from the sun. The 22 archetypes repeat throughout the world - the sun being the center of the solar system as well as giver of life. Regaurdless of other planets, sun sign angles more than anything, identifies your tribe.
 
Modcleopatra

Modcleopatra

Banned
ScorpioMinistry said:
Hello hope this is the right place for this. When I read peoples post it would help me grow in understanding the 12 tribes, if it displayed with the persons screenname, their sun sign. If it's possible I don't know, but that would be my suggestion. (Butters) Why Heck, if it displayed the location of all their planets under the screenname.

[moved thread to general chat - moderator]
Click to expand...


Having a Sun Sign does not make for a position in a Tribe, and should not be understood as a such. You are not part of a group of people. You simply, as Waybread said, given this unique kind of identity marker, known as your Sun Sign, or the Constellation which was behind the Sun, during the time of your birth, infusing your Solar Energies, or Ego, with the qualities associated with that sun sign. Tribal Affliliation however, is an interesting concept. I would never have thought to have paired sun signs together as tribes. Just because you share a Sun Sign, doesn't mean you belong to a group or posse. You might find some comforting commonalities between those like you, but alas, simply sharing a sun sign, does not make for an organized group with a coherent center, as ideal as that might feel or seem.



Now displaying someone's Sun Sign, or chart placements, within their profile, or underneath their member information, while perhaps something that would make sense, and happens rather ubiquitously on this forum, butts up against a real concern here- the right to privacy. It has also has to do with consent to release information. While it might be helpful for one to know another person's chart for all kinds of well-intentioned purposes, the possibility that there is a darker more evil motivation of an individual, is always a possibility, and so, this person sharing this information should have complete control of when they decide to share this information, and why.

Even if the idea is that we would be putting our chart/astro information out there publicly for the sake of education, we still must grapple with these realities.
 
tikana

tikana

Well-known member
Astro.com? that should be renamed to astrozoogonewild.com
if i see a chart even without location, i can figure out where the person was born at.

Tik


waybread said:
Claire, in addition to the two people who really creeped me out [one was really malicious and the other one admitted to being mentally ill], I have had 4 people try to do my chart over at Astrodienst based on bits of information that I've dropped on various threads. I didn't want them to construct the chart for the above mentioned reasons; but also because I do view astrology as the "sacred science" and I just didn't want to contribute to people using my chart for negative purposes. It was only the fact that these men couldn't get my birth place correct that gave me some sense of relief about their "detective work." Which is also a good argument for me and anyone else to be a bit more circumspect.

There really isn't any way to lie about a birth date and time once you show someone your chart, because all they need is an ephemeris to track it down. I'm not familiar with the technique of pinning down the birth location, but I have seen people who know the astrological math do it with some accuracy.

Frankly, if your birth data were properly recorded in an American state, it is a matter of public record: in my birth location, either via the county recorder's office or birth notices in the newspaper. Old US newspapers, incidentally are widely available on microfilm through Interlibrary loan; and increasingly, on-line.

Stalking is maybe the lesser worry. Identity theft is a huge problem, and if someone acquires a copy of your birth certificate [which they can legally do] they can then usually get hold of your social security number, and you're in trouble; especially those trusting souls with links to personal websites or social networking sites which give out further personal details. Identity thieves can open up credit card accounts in your name, run them up, and then vanish. By the time the victim has straightened everything out, s/he often has had a horrible time keeping their finances and credit rating intact.

I think your dummy birth place idea might work, however. I could use one of the ones that the Astrodienst sleuths thought were correct.

For nicknames, I would encourage people to use one that is nothing like their real name.

With those guys who tried to construct my chart, I don't think they were malicious: it was more like a detective game for them. But we just don't know who is out there.
Click to expand...
 
Nexus7

Nexus7

Well-known member
Now displaying someone's Sun Sign, or chart placements, within their profile, or underneath their member information, while perhaps something that would make sense, and happens rather ubiquitously on this forum, butts up against a real concern here- the right to privacy. It has also has to do with consent to release information. While it might be helpful for one to know another person's chart for all kinds of well-intentioned purposes, the possibility that there is a darker more evil motivation of an individual, is always a possibility, and so, this person sharing this information should have complete control of when they decide to share this information, and why.
Click to expand...
Well said, Mod Cleopatra.

Anyone who voluntarily wishes to join a posse or tribe of star signs, or moon signs or Mars or Venus signs for that matter, might well find their mecca on tribe.net, for example.

Otherwise I think there is a little too much in the way of astro-fundamentalism anyway - nothing IMO should ever be thelast say about the ultimate truth of another human being, any more than either race, culture, class or gender should be. I saw plenty of examples of 'signism' at work at various wild and free and unmoderated sites at various places in cyberspace.
 
Modcleopatra

Modcleopatra

Banned
Nexus7 said:
Well said, Mod Cleopatra.

Anyone who voluntarily wishes to join a posse or tribe of star signs, or moon signs or Mars or Venus signs for that matter, might well find their mecca on tribe.net, for example.

Otherwise I think there is a little too much in the way of astro-fundamentalism anyway - nothing IMO should ever be thelast say about the ultimate truth of another human being, any more than either race, culture, class or gender should be. I saw plenty of examples of 'signism' at work at various wild and free and unmoderated sites at various places in cyberspace.
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Exactly, the dangers of "signism" that is to say, simply lumping people into a category based on their Sun Sign, and not appreciating, or embracing their extra qualities, such as what can found in other parts of their charts, can actually do a huge disservice to that of Astrology itself. It might be gratifying or even fun sometimes to do this, but it's not always the best option, nor the safest one. For example, if you were to provide a reading for someone who wanted to know about the particular root of illness, and you simply focused on how they were this One Sign, you could seriously miss a way to help them or reach out to them and given them some solid advice based on their chart.

However, tribe.net does seem like a good choice for those seeking exacting bits of information, but I also know that it is significantly less involved then this place, makes sense as there is less to do with actually being connected to one another, and more about focusing on aspects of one's natal chart or sun sign and how it relates to one's life and how one sees one's self. If the emphasis is only one of self-exploration, it might just make the most sense to join a place such as that.
 
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waybread

waybread

Well-known member
I find the "tribe" concept for sun-signs to be unhelpful. It reinforces the notion of exclusivity among personality traits; and reduces astrology to delineating a bunch of static personality characteristics. Astrology is a work of synthesis. Astrology and human beings are dynamic. Signs are about the weakest bit of astrological information to go on, in my opinion, for the following reasons.

1. The tropical vs. sidereal debate; or western vs. Hindu astrology. Unless people have their sun in the very late degrees of a sign in the tropical zodiac, it is actually in the preceding sign using the sidereal zodiac. I use the tropical zodiac and don't do Hindu astrology, but I have seen it produce really good results.

2. Many of the personal characteristics associated with signs possibly pertained several thousands of years ago when the 30-degree pie-sectors of the heavens more or less corresponded to actual constellations, but these don't correspond anymore.

3. A really close challenging aspect will have much more effect on someone's personality than will their sun-sign. Just look at someone with sun conjunct Pluto or sun square Pluto, for example.

4. If someone has already made up his mind about what the "sun in Leo" [or whatever means, he can easily fall into a trap of stereotyping total strangers on the basis of what he thinks he "already knows." Such that if he thinks, "I don't get along with Leos," he has developed a needless and negative self-fulfilling prophecy about 1/12 of the human race.

5. Traditional astrology has not always associated the sun with one's core identity. If you look at rulerships, the sun is also one's father in a day birth, one's king [in a monarchy] or a woman's husband. Formerly the ascendant was seen as the locus of the individual identity. To some, also, a woman with a night birth would be more characterized by her moon sign.
 
Modcleopatra

Modcleopatra

Banned
ScorpioMinistry said:
Hello hope this is the right place for this. When I read peoples post it would help me grow in understanding the 12 tribes, if it displayed with the persons screenname, their sun sign. If it's possible I don't know, but that would be my suggestion. (Butters) Why Heck, if it displayed the location of all their planets under the screenname.

[moved thread to general chat - moderator]
Click to expand...


Well I do hope that these responses you've received here are helpful to understanding why many of us here wouldn't feel comfortable with sharing our information as you thought of.
 
B

Backy

Well-known member
I don't understand how can an astrologer track someone, and get his birth details, when, for example, in someone's country it is not possible to get that info online no matter how much you try (my own country is an example of that). The only way is to somehow get his/her birth certificate via phone(but they also need to know the hospital where the person was born, no? There are many hospitals in one place, especially if it is a capitol of the country), but it can't be done by anyone. They usually ask for ID or something, because if it could be done that easily, than anyone may get ........just about anyone's birth certificate, and it doesn't have to be an astrologer.

I also can't think of any reason why would anyone want to track somebody else......what's the use of it?
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Backy said:
I don't understand how can an astrologer track someone, and get his birth details, when, for example, in someone's country it is not possible to get that info online no matter how much you try (my own country is an example of that). The only way is to somehow get his/her birth certificate via phone(but they also need to know the hospital where the person was born, no? There are many hospitals in one place, especially if it is a capitol of the country), but it can't be done by anyone. They usually ask for ID or something, because if it could be done that easily, than anyone may get ........just about anyone's birth certificate, and it doesn't have to be an astrologer.

I also can't think of any reason why would anyone want to track somebody else......what's the use of it?
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Hi Backy--I don't know if you read my post, above, but if you've never been cyber-stalked or had someone try to steal your identity for credit card fraud, &c., you are fortunate. Information stored at a county or municipal recorder's office usually is a matter of public record, even if it's not on-line. One other example that I just thought of are the expanding number of family history web sites, where people's birth data may be posted. To say nothing of social networking sites where people post all kinds of personal info for anyone to read.

In my two near-misses on another astrology forum, one guy just clearly hated me, flamed everything I wrote, and posted some things that actually made me suspect that he knew or guessed who I was. The other example was a woman who really tried hard to befriend me as her forum buddy, and who kept after it even when I repeatedly said I wanted to retain my anonymity. She wanted us to meet, &c. Her posts became increasingly erratic, then stopped. When they picked up again, she confessed to having just gotten out of the mental hospital. Although I think she was harmless, I did not really want her in my life. Occasionally you will get con artists posing as astrologers, as well.

The situation with birth data on Asteroid Lucifer, from whence Templeton hails, is probably different.
 
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B

Backy

Well-known member
Hey waybread - Nope I didn't read your previous posts completely, as I was in a hurry, I just saw that there is a discussion about stalking, but now I did, and I'm sorry for what happened to you :sad:

There are stalkers in all fields. So far, no, it never happened to me. I do understand when someone is stalking someone to get his credit card number, get his identity, hack his account, etc.....as it can bring financial goods to them and they can make good benefits. But I don't understand why would an astrologer want to track someone down JUST to get his natal chart. If he is not interested in his client, or I don't know, I don't see any benefits coming from tracking someone's birth details ONLY. Of course, EVERYONE has rights on their privacy, but if an astrologer is ready for that, then I think it is a huge minus for his reputation.
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Backy said:
Hey waybread - Nope I didn't read your previous posts completely, as I was in a hurry, I just saw that there is a discussion about stalking, but now I did, and I'm sorry for what happened to you :sad:

There are stalkers in all fields. So far, no, it never happened to me. I do understand when someone is stalking someone to get his credit card number, get his identity, hack his account, etc.....as it can bring financial goods to them and they can make good benefits. But I don't understand why would an astrologer want to track someone down JUST to get his natal chart. If he is not interested in his client, or I don't know, I don't see any benefits coming from tracking someone's birth details ONLY. Of course, EVERYONE has rights on their privacy, but if an astrologer is ready for that, then I think it is a huge minus for his reputation.
Click to expand...

Backy, thanks. With the serious astrologers, I think they were just into the detective work, but it still sort of creeped me out to think that someone would go to this kind of trouble. The other two were more sinister. But we never know who is out there.

BTW, ScorpioMinistry I will say that my sun is in Aquarius! Thank God.
 
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