Feeling of always being analyzed by others

waybread said:

Animatrix, please re-read my post #12 on sun opposite Saturn. I have this aspect natally and don't feel at all the way you've described in your above posts.

So far as a happy childhood goes, parts of mine were great, parts not-so-great. But again, we have to look at the whole chart. The 4th house rules one's early childhood conditioning.

In choice-centered astrology, an astrologer's best contribution to others is to suggest empowering ways to make the best use of their horoscope placements.

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Yeah I agree and the natal horoscope is not just one aspect. Mars Square Saturn is an aspect which is very common in charts of those with a very bad temperament yet I know people with this aspect who are very calm and peaceful. Other factors in their charts mitigate or altogether prevent the negative effects of this influence. But when the aspect is nearly exact and there is a focus n Saturn in their lives, it becomes very clear.

From what you said about yourself it sounds like you are a very stable, evolved individual and hence you express the more positive side of this aspect. But for many it is not - just look at Charlie Sheen. Saturn opposes his Sun. There are literally thousands of cases like him you can read about if you google. It requires a person of to be of good psychological makeup to be able to handle such a difficult aspect. And you seem to be one of those.

But the Saturnian lesson is easy to recognize, and once it is recognized it can Always be worked upon. Each individual must find out this by himself and then make an effort to overcome Saturn's restrictions, not by ignoring it, but by adapting to it for a while.

Moon/Saturn is not as harsh as Sun/Saturn? What about Mercury and Saturn? Isn't Mercury how your mind works? If your Mercury has a lot of hard aspects can't that make you hyper-aware or paranoid?

applesandlilacs said:

Moon/Saturn is not as harsh as Sun/Saturn? What about Mercury and Saturn? Isn't Mercury how your mind works? If your Mercury has a lot of hard aspects can't that make you hyper-aware or paranoid?

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Saturn-Moon makes an individual feel unloved, but not necessarily self-conscious. Saturn-Mercury slows down the mind and adds pessimism and difficulty Learning. Saturn-Venus even in trine and sextile gives sorrow in love, but with age it gives stable relationships.

Thanks for the complement, Animatrix. I do not claim any enlightenment, but hopefully I have learned a thing or two about Saturn opposite sun.

Charlie Sheen does have sun opposite Saturn, but his sun also conjuncts Uranus and Pluto, which is a pretty volatile dynamic. Then Saturn sits up at the top of his chart conjunct Chiron.

I just checked his father Martin Sheen's chart at https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Sheen,_Martin

He has Saturn square sun, but not in isolation. His sun conjuncts his moon, Mars, and Pluto and squares Jupiter, with Uranus being tied in by its volatile square to Mars.

So both of the Sheen's have some major complicating variables.

I am a great believer in choice-centered astrology. Or as Ann Landers put it, "When life hands you a lemon, make lemonade."

For sure, Saturn can make us feel pessimistic (Mercury,) unlovable (Venus,) unlucky (Jupiter,) lethargic (Mars,) and so on. But this is a Saturn waiting to become a wise teacher.

Saturn demands something from us. He's like the strict teacher we hated in high school, who nevertheless taught us something of lasting value. Another analogy would be the auto mechanic who runs a diagnostic on the car, and catches our deferred maintenance.

Saturn teaches stamina in the face of fear, and hence courage. (Saturn rules the bones, and the sun rules the back. Hence, getting some "backbone".) Saturn teaches patience, deferred gratification, hard work and getting by on very little. That "very little" might be emotional strokes (moon,) financial rewards (2nd house,) friends (11th house,) or self- confidence (sun.)

Normally if we learn Saturn's lessons he rewards us. As mature adults, we learn sufficient toughness to get through tough times. We learn to appreciate our own company when alone. We have money in the bank instead of big credit card debts. Hopefully we have a pension.

I'm not saying that life is fair to everyone. Poverty can be such a huge pit to ever think about climbing out of. But when we're poor, Saturn teaches us how to do that sensibly, with a stock of survival skills.

But for so many people, we can benefit from Saturn's lessons. One of his greatest gifts is the ability to learn self-discipline. Another one is life experience.

Sometimes Dr. No is actually Dr. Not Yet.

Even people with no hard natal Saturn aspects, he will come around routinely by transit. So he's just worth getting to know better. Dreading a Saturn transit makes no sense to me. What is that Great Mechanic in the Sky testing this time? Our budget? Our marriage? Our parenting skills?

Our ability to love despite the fear of vulnerability?

If we learn Saturn's lessons, we become stronger in these areas.

So, does capricorn and the 10th house have a similar, but lighter effect?

I wouldn't conflate planets, signs, and houses. You find this in some modern astrology, but I don't think it's a good idea. It's standard in medical astrology, but I don't think it is at issue here. Capricorn, however, is ruled by Saturn. So if you find a troublesome planet in Capricorn or Aquarius (which might have Saturn as ruling the house cusp) then for sure, see what the Old Man is up to.

Animatrix said:

Saturn-Moon makes an individual feel unloved, but not necessarily self-conscious. Saturn-Mercury slows down the mind and adds pessimism and difficulty Learning. Saturn-Venus even in trine and sextile gives sorrow in love, but with age it gives stable relationships.

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Let's see if I can ask this right. Do generational aspects amplify personal aspects? Me for example: Saturn conjuncts Moon and N.Node. Saturn/Moon squares Neptune. Since Saturn and Neptune are outer planets this aspects is felt generationally?

applesandlilacs said:

Let's see if I can ask this right. Do generational aspects amplify personal aspects? Me for example: Saturn conjuncts Moon and N.Node. Saturn/Moon squares Neptune. Since Saturn and Neptune are outer planets this aspects is felt generationally?

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What "is felt generationally" would probably be the outer planets-in-signs. What is felt personally would be the planet's house placement and any aspects to your personal planets. If Saturn conjuncts your moon, it's personal. This could be a recipe either for "hurt feelings" or "emotionally cold"-- as well as "disciplined emotions." Note that the moon also rules your mother, and in a night birth, your father; so moon-Saturn might say something about your parents.

Saturn conjunct NN could inhibit your pursuit of personal growth. But it could also help you to persevere and work hard at it.

Your call.

waybread said:

What "is felt generationally" would probably be the outer planets-in-signs. What is felt personally would be the planet's house placement and any aspects to your personal planets. If Saturn conjuncts your moon, it's personal. This could be a recipe either for "hurt feelings" or "emotionally cold"-- as well as "disciplined emotions." Note that the moon also rules your mother, and in a night birth, your father; so moon-Saturn might say something about your parents.

Saturn conjunct NN could inhibit your pursuit of personal growth. But it could also help you to persevere and work hard at it.

Your call.

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I've read that a lot about cold distant mom/dad, that is not at all how my house was (however, both of my parents are slightly defensive and pessimistic). It was different being military and my mom was a gift giver over a hugger, but my mom was not strict nor was my dad, they didn't ignore me either. The only thing I could think of is my family stuffs it all rather than expressing negative emotions, and I'm the opposite. If I bottle, bad things will happen.

After reading everything, I still think for me I'm leaning towards it being Mercury. It rules the 8th and 11th house in my chart, and my Sun, Moon, Saturn, N.Node (all Virgo). It makes aspects to every planet direct or in a Stellium, it even aspects all points in my chart. I don't have anything in 8th house (Gemini), but Vertex. And, I don't know enough about to say anything.



I'm still learning, so who knows. Maybe, it's just that I'm assuming that others analyze since I obviously overthink things.😊

Thanks again,
Amber

Do you want to post your chart?

Here's my chart.




I've seen that semi-sextiles are minor aspects, but in my observation I can feel them often in my chart, especially the Moon/Mercury and Mercury/Mars.


I'm open to any questions, so feel free to ask me.


Blessings,
Amber

Apples and Lilacs, in terms of feeling that others are always analyzing you-- I'd pin most of this on your strong Leo-Virgo influence. I suspect that you are highly critical of yourself, and then imagine others do the same.

Leo loves to look good and to be the the center of others' affection and attention. But Virgo-- especially Saturn in Virgo-- is the consummate critic. Leo likes to look good, but Virgo says, "You're not going out wearing that, are you?"

Your Mercury in Leo right up there on your MC is involved in your public image and sense of a vocation or calling in life. But Mercury is square Chiron, the little planetoid that shows us "where it hurts." Saturn conjunct moon can make you feel anxious and depressed. In the 11th house, Saturn can make you feel friendless, or that your friends are not the caring ones you'd hoped for.

I think the thing to realize is that you are your own worst critic. If you are highly critical of yourself, it is hard for others to get a more positive view of you because you will organize your external circumstances to mirror your internal beliefs.

So what can you do to build your self-esteem? One thing is to thank Mr. Saturn for sharing, and then go ahead and focus on one of your happier planets. With Leo, maybe you can wear more gold jewelry, and do something nice for yourself, like buying some fresh flowers at the market. Focus on your career goals. With Virgo, do what you can to be helpful to other people. Look after your own health and well being.

Saturn rules older people, so maybe you would enjoy volunteering on behalf of seniors, or befriending older people.

Then just do what you can to feel comfortable in your own skin.

Note that Mercury, as the ruler of Virgo, will influence your Virgo moon. Similarly, the moon, as the ruler of Mars, will influence your Cancer Mars. You have Mercury and the sun in mutual reception, so that's an ace in your hand.

waybread said:

Apples and Lilacs, in terms of feeling that others are always analyzing you-- I'd pin most of this on your strong Leo-Virgo influence. I suspect that you are highly critical of yourself, and then imagine others do the same.

Leo loves to look good and to be the the center of others' affection and attention. But Virgo-- especially Saturn in Virgo-- is the consummate critic. Leo likes to look good, but Virgo says, "You're not going out wearing that, are you?"

Your Mercury in Leo right up there on your MC is involved in your public image and sense of a vocation or calling in life. But Mercury is square Chiron, the little planetoid that shows us "where it hurts." Saturn conjunct moon can make you feel anxious and depressed. In the 11th house, Saturn can make you feel friendless, or that your friends are not the caring ones you'd hoped for.

I think the thing to realize is that you are your own worst critic. If you are highly critical of yourself, it is hard for others to get a more positive view of you because you will organize your external circumstances to mirror your internal beliefs.

So what can you do to build your self-esteem? One thing is to thank Mr. Saturn for sharing, and then go ahead and focus on one of your happier planets. With Leo, maybe you can wear more gold jewelry, and do something nice for yourself, like buying some fresh flowers at the market. Focus on your career goals. With Virgo, do what you can to be helpful to other people. Look after your own health and well being.

Saturn rules older people, so maybe you would enjoy volunteering on behalf of seniors, or befriending older people.

Then just do what you can to feel comfortable in your own skin.

Note that Mercury, as the ruler of Virgo, will influence your Virgo moon. Similarly, the moon, as the ruler of Mars, will influence your Cancer Mars. You have Mercury and the sun in mutual reception, so that's an ace in your hand.

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Thank-you for taking the time to write this, it's greatly appreciated.


Most rings true, luckily depression and ****** friends went out the window in my mid to late twenties.

I have this weird dichotomy, where I know my worth, yet I always feel I have to prove it to others.

I remember someone once said to me "Would you ever let someone talk to someone you love the way you talk to yourself?"

Thanks again,
Amber

Animatrix said:

It's funny that you mention that he sometimes acted like a parent. This is often, in my experience, just Theatre, like they put on a mask of maturity, because the essence of Saturn-Sun opposition is the unwillingness by the individual, to develop real maturity and act like a real adult. They feel often inferior to others, so sometimes they act like the "wise guy" who is just teaching others stuff. The Sun-Saturn opposition means that the individual cannot harmonize Saturn in their lives, yet of course many people do.

My grandfather had the opposition, he was a scorpio. He refused to take responsibility for anything. He would use women (he had five marriages) who would take HIS responsibilities. He never managed to grow with Saturn unfortunately, but remained immature throughout his Life, to the very end.

The selfishness is not TRUE selfishness, because they are not like thieves or bullies, but they are so lost and fragile in this Life (Saturn is literally blocking the vitality) that they are so extremely focused on their own survival all the time - they have no time to truly care for others.

Sun is doubtless the most important planet in the horoscope, and I Think every astrologer can agree on that. And Saturn really is the toughest of all malefics. I see people mentioning Pluto etc. but Pluto gives vitality and Health, although it is destructive. My parents both have Sun Square Pluto, and it manifested periodically in their lives, with problems with powerful persons, but it is seldom (from what I've read, and seen) really in the core of the individual.

The saddest horoscopes I have looked upon has been charts where Saturn is in adverse aspect to Sun, Moon or Venus. The influence is very Heavy, often felt on a day to day basis, and the sorrows and burdens are really hard to bear for them, and since Saturn is notorious for paralyzing the willpower of an individual, they are often unable to escape the demanding planet. There is no joy to derive from adverse Sun-Saturn aspects.

Another thing I have been thinking of is the happy childhood many Saturn-Sun individuals have had.

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It makes a lot of sense tbh. He has hard aspects against his Saturn especially his Sun (Leo), Moon (Scorpio) and Venus/Mars/Mercury (Virgo). I would always mention to him how I could see right through him - even he pointed out he liked to wear a mask to people - and me seeing through his lies/paint/hurt/ etc might have intimidated him. I knew too much about who he was - probably more so than he recognized. It was almost unbelievable that he could read me as well. I always assumed that people couldn't read or understand me because no one did or took the time too. But he almost knew instinctively and intuitively that it amazed me and I think it amazed him how well I could see the pain in his eyes - even though he was smiling and laughing and putting up a facade - I was one only one who understood him well. It was a very intense experience.

I could totally see him going your grandfathers path. Especially if he makes no conscientious effort to change or see the error of his ways. But being an Aquarius sun with heavy water - I KNEW who he was going to become and I guided him and told him that I saw the man in him, who he was going to become - without being specific. He's on his path that I more or less predicted - but he's in that part of his life where his ego is growing too big for him - and I'm waiting for the inevitable crash of vulnerability and total surrender. If he's smart, he will have learned his lesson and if he doesn't - well that's on him. Because people like that will NEVER be happy.

And you are also correct in the ultimate survival thing. He was so paranoid that everyone was out to get him that he solely focused on his well being. When I came along and showed him my light,my love, honesty and loyalty - he would push me away and reel me back in. It was almost like a Vampire using his prey for a quick meal to suck me dry and let me go to replenish his own sadness and misery. He wouldn't outright show it though. He's a Leo so he was vibrant and friendly and charming. Smart and calculated - but I always saw through that wall. I think that's what freaked him out because he was so afraid of being hurt.

As far as the childhood, the bit that he did mention wasn't very good. At least the way HE put it. (His mother emotionally abandoned him -shes a Gemini - and his father passed away when he was very young. He essentially grew up alone as his older siblings neglected him and pushed him aside. He was very close to his Cancer sister though. Possibly because she represented that motherly figure he always sought out). Within less than a month of being involved I KNEW that he had mommy issues. He couldn't believe that I accurately predicted or KNEW his childhood upbringing - to the point where he cried to me and broke down. After that he was hesitant to do it again and he began to be emotionally cold and distant with me. But sexually he was always there to fill me (and him) up with love and affection.