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View Poll Results: To be or not to be
To be 5 31.25%
Not to be 3 18.75%
To be and not to be 1 6.25%
Not to be and to be 1 6.25%
Considering my options 6 37.50%
Agree 1 6.25%
Disagree 1 6.25%
Undecided 1 6.25%
Reading 'Being and Time' HEIDEGGER responding later 1 6.25%
Still wondering what Descartes meant 1 6.25%
Consulting dictionary definitions 1 6.25%
This is a ridiculous question 5 31.25%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Unread 02-17-2015, 10:41 AM
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Poll: To be or not to be

HAMLET:

To be, or not to be
that is the question:

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind
to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles

And by opposing end them.

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  #2  
Unread 02-17-2015, 03:27 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
HAMLET:

To be, or not to be
that is the question:

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind
to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles

And by opposing end them.

The answer in abstract points to the unidirectionality of time in the stillness of space; the microcosm of the self against the timelessness of nature. Value judgement is qualified by perspective. Perspective is subject to change and thus not to be trusted. Be the change because you are the change. Stillness does not move, lest is becomes it's own problem.

Last edited by Tessie; 02-17-2015 at 03:36 PM. Reason: Colours
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  #3  
Unread 02-17-2015, 08:52 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessie View Post
The answer in abstract points to the unidirectionality of time in the stillness of space;
the microcosm of the self against the timelessness of nature.
Value judgement is qualified by perspective.
Perspective is subject to change and thus not to be trusted.
Be the change because you are the change.
Stillness does not move, lest is becomes it's own problem.
Thanks for responding Tessie
That 'Stillness does not move'
is a relative term

and

as an example
~ consider retrograde planets
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  #4  
Unread 02-17-2015, 10:10 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

That's fine; isn't acquiring stillness in movement key to personal evolution?
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Unread 02-18-2015, 08:21 AM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
HAMLET:

To be, or not to be
that is the question:

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind
to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles

And by opposing end them.

Hamlet is comparing the pain of life, which he believes is unavoidable (the sea of troubles - the slings and arrows - the heart-ache - the thousand natural shocks) with the uncertainty of death....and possible damnation after suicide. His personal debate is 'suffering versus what death may bring'? It may be sleep, but in "perchance to dream" or the "undiscover'd country from which no traveller returns". His fear is that 'life is bad, but death might be worse'...?

Last edited by Inline; 02-18-2015 at 08:47 AM.
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  #6  
Unread 02-18-2015, 10:50 AM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessie View Post
That's fine; isn't acquiring stillness in movement key to personal evolution?
'Personal evolution' is a matter for the 'individual'
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  #7  
Unread 02-18-2015, 10:56 AM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inline View Post

Hamlet is comparing the pain of life, which he believes is unavoidable
(the sea of troubles - the slings and arrows - the heart-ache - the thousand natural shocks)
with the uncertainty of death....
and possible damnation after suicide.
His personal debate is 'suffering versus what death may bring'? It may be sleep,
but in "perchance to dream"
or the "undiscover'd country from which no traveller returns".
His fear is that 'life is bad, but death might be worse'...?
Hamlet is asking whether 'tis better 'to be'

or

better to 'not-be'

It seems that you interpret Hamlet's dilemma
as 'life versus death'

life being full of 'the thousand natural shocks that flesh is heir to'
and death being an 'unsafe haven'
due to an apparent lack of reports regarding post-death experience
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  #8  
Unread 02-18-2015, 02:26 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
'Personal evolution' is a matter for the 'individual'
It is not as simple as that. You appear to argue that the question centers on choice. It does. But the matter does not. It centers on existentialism and the mystery of what constitutes the individual, otherwise there would be no remaining question. The choice would have been made. Is the "individual" this extant life or is this living experience a mere dross on one's entire existence?

Are we the most wisest of the universe or are we not? Creationists say no. Evolutionists say yes. It boils down to choosing a path and dealing with consequences. It is a cause/effect paradigm, our universe, so there are always consequences. No question. Although some wonder if ignorance really is bliss.

An individual has a choice. But only within the parameters of what this life affords: space and time being the constants of the no free will zone. We each have the freedom to choose, yes, but we do not have the freedom to evade the consequences. Doesn't sound like much of a choice. The question, to be or not to be, is illusory because we are. The truth is simple. Therefore it is a matter of accepting the truth rather than accepting a falsehood. But, yes, there is a choice.

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  #9  
Unread 02-18-2015, 02:29 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessie View Post

It is not as simple as that. You appear to argue that the question centers on choice. It does. But the matter does not. It centers on existentialism and the mystery of what constitutes the individual, otherwise there would be no remaining question. The choice would have been made. Is the individual this extant life or is this living experience a mere dross on one's entire existence?

Are we the most wisest of the universe or are we not? Creationists say no. Evolutionists say yes. It boils down to choosing a path and dealing with consequences. It is a cause/effect paradigm, our universe, so there are always consequences. No question, although some wonder if ignorance really is bliss.

An individual has a choice. But only within the parameters of what this life affords: space and time being the constants of the no free will zone. We each have the freedom to choose, yes, but we do not have the freedom to evade the consequences. Doesn't sound like much of a choice.

The question, to be or not to be, is illusory because we are.
On the contrary, your "answer" is illustory
simply because

as an individual you may only speak for yourself and yet you claim "WE (allegedly) are"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessie View Post
The truth is simple. Therefore it is a matter of accepting the truth rather than accepting a falsehood. But, yes, there is a choice.

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Unread 02-18-2015, 03:07 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
On the contrary, your "answer" is illustory
simply because

as an individual you may only speak for yourself and yet you claim "WE (allegedly) are"
Actually, your perception is illusory because you cannot, and therefore do not, know whether Tessie is an individual.
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  #11  
Unread 02-18-2015, 08:58 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessie View Post

Actually, your perception is illusory because you cannot, and therefore do not, know whether Tessie is an individual.
your perception is similarly illusory
because you cannot state
what another 'you'
does
or
does not
know
QUOD ERAT DEMONSTRANDUM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D.
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  #12  
Unread 02-19-2015, 12:01 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

"To be or not to be" is a question asked from the perspective of a live, not a dead, entity. Therefore, the perspective is already one of being. Therefore saying 'one already is' is entirely permissible.

Energy does not cease to exist. It can change form. But it remains in being. To be or not to be...? A postman, a fireman, a nurse, A GHOST? That is your choice. But you do not get to decide whether you are anymore than I get to decide that for you.
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Unread 02-19-2015, 07:25 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessie View Post

"To be or not to be" is a question asked from the perspective of a live, not a dead, entity.
Not necessarily
'You' do not get to decide whether 'a dead entity' can or cannot ask the question "to be or not to be"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessie View Post

Therefore, the perspective is already one of being.
To be specific
the question "to be or not to be" may be asked from either/any perspective

i.e.
from the perspective of
'an alive entity'

and/or

from the perspective of
'a dead entity'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessie View Post

Therefore saying 'one already is' is entirely permissible.
Not necessarily
the perspective of 'a living entity'

while having similarity

differs from the perspective of 'a dead entity'

i.e.
'one already IS dead'

or

'one already IS alive'

i.e.
whether

one IS dead

or

IS alive


one IS

and
therefore

one is BEING

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessie View Post

Energy does not cease to exist.
It can change form.
'Energy' may be formless
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessie View Post

But it remains in being.
in some cases
being formless

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessie View Post

To be or not to be...?
A postman, a fireman, a nurse, A GHOST?
That is your choice.
you claim 'that is your choice'
before then saying:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessie View Post

But you do not get to decide whether you are
speak for yourself
a decision is preceded by choice and/or choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessie View Post

anymore than I get to decide that for you.

we make our choices
choice governs experience
and
vice versa

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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 02-19-2015 at 08:33 PM. Reason: elucidation
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Unread 02-19-2015, 08:34 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

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Unread 02-19-2015, 09:01 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

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Unread 02-19-2015, 09:01 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

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Unread 02-20-2015, 11:06 AM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

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  #18  
Unread 02-20-2015, 01:29 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Not necessarily
'You' do not get to decide whether 'a dead entity' can or cannot ask the question "to be or not to be"


To be specific
the question "to be or not to be" may be asked from either/any perspective

i.e.
from the perspective of
'an alive entity'

and/or

from the perspective of
'a dead entity'


Not necessarily
the perspective of 'a living entity'

while having similarity

differs from the perspective of 'a dead entity'

i.e.
'one already IS dead'

or

'one already IS alive'

i.e.
whether

one IS dead

or

IS alive


one IS

and
therefore

one is BEING
Quite simply, you quoted Shakespeare's Hamlet. Both Shakespeare and Hamlet were alive at the time of the soliloquy. Therefore the soliloquy, which you quoted, is from the perspective of 'being' period. Discussing a quote made by a dead entity when a dead entity did not make the quote, and may not be able to make the quote, is asking logic to take a hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
'Energy' may be formless
You are playing on words. Energy does not cease to exist, can only change form, therefore is never completely formless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
you claim 'that is your choice'
before then saying:
You missed my point. Your vocations are your choice. But you do not get to decide whether you are a being anymore than I get to decide that for you.
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Unread 02-20-2015, 02:08 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessie View Post

Quite simply, you quoted Shakespeare's Hamlet.

Both Shakespeare and Hamlet were alive at the time of the soliloquy.

Therefore the soliloquy, which you quoted, is from the perspective of 'being' period.
Discussing a quote made by a dead entity when a dead entity did not make the quote, and may not be able to make the quote, is asking logic to take a hit.
Quite simply, Hamlet is an imaginary character
and therefore neither 'alive' nor 'dead'
except
when 'on-stage' in the form of an actor

therefore
the soliloquy is from an imaginary perspective
of an IMAGINARY BEING
declaiming onstage
lines written by a playwright


Discussing a quote made by an imaginary entity
when that entity is clearly neither living nor dead
is not illogical
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessie View Post
You are playing on words.
Energy does not cease to exist,
can only change form, therefore is never completely formless.
Energy may not cease to exist
does change form
but energy is not limited to 'being solely able to change from one form to another'
therefore energy may be formless

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessie View Post
You missed my point.
Your vocations are your choice.
But you do not get to decide whether you are a being
anymore than I get to decide that for you
You missed my point
you do not get to decide whether or not one gets to decide
whether one is a being or not


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Unread 02-20-2015, 10:41 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

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Unread 02-21-2015, 11:03 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

TO BE OR NOT TO BE?

A question that the Astrological Pluto needs to answer
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Unread 02-22-2015, 02:26 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

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  #23  
Unread 02-22-2015, 02:27 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

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Unread 02-25-2015, 09:19 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

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  #25  
Unread 02-25-2015, 11:45 PM
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Re: Poll: To be or not to be

Hi JupiterAsc,

You have come a long way regarding Greek Philosophical ancient masters ha ha, i like your game, Bunraku wants a Pluto interpretation, however regarding the ancients, we have difficulty, many would say link below has a Pluto twinge, however perhaps Pluto shouldn't be in the game, by classical masters ha ha!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkzxGr4Yx8U
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